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Israel World Court

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#21 Kevin Street

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 01:53 PM

Ogami, on Jul 10 2004, 09:42 AM, said:

Kevin Street wrote:

Ogami, what do you mean by the prhase "our war" in the subtitle? If it's not too personal a question, are you Israeli?

Nope, it's an intellectual and moral support of Israel's right to exist. The same as I support Bush's stated policies in the war on terror. Not of blind sheeplike faith in my leadership, as the left snidely asserts at every turn. But because our principles and actions in Iraq and Afghanistan are firmly guided by a grasp of world history and human nature. Humans are born free, it's a right every human starts with. Only despots and states can take that right away.
I'm just not parsing this. What does Bush and the war on terror have to do with the Arab/Israeli conflict? Sure, they feed on each other, but the two "wars" (or to be more accurate, unconventional low-intensity conflicts) are being fought over completely different issues. So I'll ask you again, in what way is the current Intifada your war? Imo, confusing the two only makes things worse. That's what many people in the Middle East already do. They see the creation of Israel and the current occupation of Iraq as two related fronts in a greater war between Islam and the West, when in truth there is no such animal. Let's not make the same mistake they do.

#22 Ogami

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 05:11 PM

Kevin Street wrote:

I'm just not parsing this. What does Bush and the war on terror have to do with the Arab/Israeli conflict? Sure, they feed on each other, but the two "wars" (or to be more accurate, unconventional low-intensity conflicts) are being fought over completely different issues.

Really? And here I thought Arab dictatorships despised having a democracy in their presence. An arab citizen of Israel has more rights, better health care, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, than any arab citizen in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iran, or Saudi Arabia. That what scares the arab dictators, that's why they don't truly help the palestinian refugees, and that's why they are so apoplectic wtih rage that Israel is in their midst.

Iraq is now the second democracy forming in the middle east. And that's got the dictators scared. Kevin, why do you think Iran and Syria are sending so many terrorists into Iraq, right over the border? A desire to see Bush fail? They don't care about that. They don't want another free country in their midst.

Completely different issues. (chuckle) Freedom isn't only for certain people, Kevin.

They see the creation of Israel and the current occupation of Iraq as two related fronts in a greater war between Islam and the West, when in truth there is no such animal. Let's not make the same mistake they do.

Bin Laden and the dictators wish to frame the argument in precisely those terms, Kevin. The West verses Islam. When the truth is that it is the arab dictator verses his own people that is the war being fought here. You see it in Iran every day, the discontent with dictatorship is spreading across the middle east.

But then that would imply Bush actually had a plan for the entire Middle East in the midst of the war in Iraq. My my.

-Ogami

#23 MuseZack

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 05:23 PM

Ogami, on Jul 10 2004, 05:17 PM, said:

MuseZack wrote:

Ogami, your ignorance about "Hollywood liberals" is quite hilarious Hollywood as a community is about as pro-Israel as you can get outside of an AIPAC meeting.

Only if you're in the Kabbalah like Madonna. But I was wrong and apologize for thinking unclearly. I was thinking more of anti-israeli journalists types like Peter Jennings, Ted Turner and Helen Thomas. Birds of a feather, they'll have better luck being invited to a Hollywood party than a conservative.

Someday it would be nice if you engaged with the opinions that liberals and leftists actually hold, instead of the straw man caricatures you enjoy demolishing.

And someday it would be nice for people like yourself to debate and discuss Bush the man and his actual policies rather than imagined conspiracies from the Deans and Moores and Streisands and the rest of those Hollywood types.

I'll meet you halfway when that happens. (Not that I ever expect you to admit you're wrong on anything as I do above.)

-Ogami
Oh, I'll happily admit to being wrong on all sorts of things, believe me.  But to address your specific point on Israel, very few people would deny Israel's legitimate rights to self-defense.  

What they're quarrelling with is a barrier wall that's specifically designed to annex a bunch of West Bank settlements into Israel proper, in clear violation of international law.  And far from making Israel safer, it would seem pretty obvious that seeding the West Bank with 200,000 Jewish settlers living in suburban fortresses among 3 million poor, angry Palestinians isn't a really great way to make Israel more secure?

I'll happily denounce any and all acts of Palestinian terrorism against Israeli civilians that you wish to cite, but inveighing against Palestinian terrorism without mentioning an Israeli settlement policy that's been systematically appropriating Palestinian land through violence for two generations seems like selective morality at best.
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#24 Ogami

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 10:06 PM

MuseZack wrote:

What they're quarrelling with is a barrier wall that's specifically designed to annex a bunch of West Bank settlements into Israel proper, in clear violation of international law.

And what you fail to recognize as amusing Zack, is that Israel's leaders are held to a different standard than Palestinian leaders. Build a wall on the West Bank's land? It's illegal! It's immoral! It's unspeakable!

But when Palestinian leaders wink and approve of suicide bombers being sent off to crowded Tel Aviv cafes, where is the World Court telling them their actions are illegal?

That's what amuses me Zack, it's a very funny situation. (At least for those of us who don't have to live there.)

-Ogami

#25 MuseZack

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Posted 11 July 2004 - 10:33 AM

Ogami, on Jul 11 2004, 03:04 AM, said:

MuseZack wrote:

What they're quarrelling with is a barrier wall that's specifically designed to annex a bunch of West Bank settlements into Israel proper, in clear violation of international law.

And what you fail to recognize as amusing Zack, is that Israel's leaders are held to a different standard than Palestinian leaders. Build a wall on the West Bank's land? It's illegal! It's immoral! It's unspeakable!

But when Palestinian leaders wink and approve of suicide bombers being sent off to crowded Tel Aviv cafes, where is the World Court telling them their actions are illegal?

That's what amuses me Zack, it's a very funny situation. (At least for those of us who don't have to live there.)

-Ogami
If your point here is that other countries in general, and the Europeans in particular, don't do enough to get the Palestinian leadership (such as it is) to crack down on terrorism, then I'd absolutely agree, and this imbalance does much to diminish their moral standing, just as I'd argue that the United States' consistent refusal to condemn Israeli bad actions (collective punishment of populations, disproportionate use of military force in densely populated areas, and seizure of Palestinian land for settlements to give three examples) hurts our efforts to bring the sides together.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
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#26 G1223

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Posted 11 July 2004 - 11:01 AM

Zack with the amount of troops sent in at times where are the tens of thousands of dead palestinians.   Or is this about using force to kill Hamas leaders via helicopter gunships?  

Sorry to me the PA has failed to or even tried to control the terrorists that instead of the gunship a full flight of fighter bombers loaded with napalm and clusterbombs is not sent is a sign that Israel is trying to just take out the terrorists.
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#27 Ogami

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Posted 11 July 2004 - 11:09 AM

MuseZack wrote:

just as I'd argue that the United States' consistent refusal to condemn Israeli bad actions (collective punishment of populations, disproportionate use of military force in densely populated areas, and seizure of Palestinian land for settlements to give three examples)

If their positions were reversed, the Palestinian Authority would exterminate every Jew and make pretty little fences out of their skulls.

So yes, I support the U.S. government not condemning the only democracy in the region, and the only country where arabs have rights. (Soon to be fully joined by a democratic Iraq.)

-Ogami

#28 MuseZack

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Posted 11 July 2004 - 11:14 AM

Ogami, on Jul 11 2004, 04:07 PM, said:

MuseZack wrote:

just as I'd argue that the United States' consistent refusal to condemn Israeli bad actions (collective punishment of populations, disproportionate use of military force in densely populated areas, and seizure of Palestinian land for settlements to give three examples)

If their positions were reversed, the Palestinian Authority would exterminate every Jew and make pretty little fences out of their skulls.

So yes, I support the U.S. government not condemning the only democracy in the region, and the only country where arabs have rights. (Soon to be fully joined by a democratic Iraq.)

-Ogami
See, you were doing so well, and then let loose with that inflammatory, hyperbolic statement which contributed precisely nothing to the discussion.  And you seem awfully sanguine about Iraq, which--while being too early to make definitive judgments on--looks a lot more likely to slide into Islamic theocracy or Saddamism without Saddam than bloom into a Jeffersonian democracy on the Euphrates.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#29 G1223

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Posted 11 July 2004 - 11:20 AM

And that contributes how Zack?
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#30 Ogami

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Posted 11 July 2004 - 01:05 PM

MuseZack wrote:

See, you were doing so well, and then let loose with that inflammatory, hyperbolic statement which contributed precisely nothing to the discussion.

When Israeli troops retook the Old Quarter of Jerusalem, they found the Palestinians had taken up every old Jewish gravestone and paved roads out of them.

That didn't just happen in a Steven Spielberg movie, Zack.

That is 100% in line with the discussion, because the question is what would cause a people to build such a wall?

As much time as you like to spend dismissing my perspective as uninformed (or illinformed), I think it is you who approaches this issue in a simplistic manner, not me.

That fence of Israeli skulls would be built if their positions were reversed, and we wouldn't be having any discussion on any dippy protective wall.

edited to add:

And you seem awfully sanguine about Iraq, which--while being too early to make definitive judgments on--looks a lot more likely to slide into Islamic theocracy or Saddamism without Saddam than bloom into a Jeffersonian democracy on the Euphrates.

Anyone who undertakes even a cursory examination of Japan's representative democracy as it exists today would not think of it as Jeffersonian democracy. The japanese took the democracy imposed from without and made it their own, so why should the Iraqis have precisely our system? Historical perspective Zack, far more useful than the screaming shrieking panic over Iraq that the left offers in lieu of considered commentary.

-Ogami

Edited by Ogami, 11 July 2004 - 01:09 PM.


#31 GiGi

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Posted 11 July 2004 - 02:22 PM

Quote

Anyone who undertakes even a cursory examination of Japan's representative democracy as it exists today would not think of it as Jeffersonian democracy. The japanese took the democracy imposed from without and made it their own, so why should the Iraqis have precisely our system? Historical perspective Zack, far more useful than the screaming shrieking panic over Iraq that the left offers in lieu of considered commentary.

Apples and oranges.

Japan is a capitalist society like we are.  It was historically run by the Emperor and the Shoguns.  The religious classes were separate from the ruling and military classes.  I can see that culturel embracing democracy and making it their own.

Not so with Middle Eastern countries.  The Religious leaders are the government and military.  I really don't see them giving up power easily.  I am pretty sure that they have been against Saddam from the beginning because he was a secular leader that if I remember correctly was put in power by the US.

Now that they have a chance at a power grab I wouldn't be surprised that a govenment run by leaders like the Taliban, the Ayatollahs etc is what will eventually come to pass.

Ogami, one request please, I have good friends who are Arab and while they sympathize with the  Palestinians, they do not want to kill innocent Jews, I would appreciate it if you could refrain from painting all Arabs as Nazis, because the great majority of them are not.

thank you.

g
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#32 Ogami

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Posted 11 July 2004 - 04:55 PM

GiGi wrote:

Apples and oranges. Japan is a capitalist society like we are. It was historically run by the Emperor and the Shoguns. The religious classes were separate from the ruling and military classes. I can see that culturel embracing democracy and making it their own.

(chuckle) So 1945 Japan, a police dictatorship where the Emperor is worshipped as a god, without the slightest trace of greco-roman democracy ever in its entire history as a country, is in GiGi's view a more natural candidate for adopting democracy than Iraq. Another country without the slightest shred of greco-roman democracy in its entire history, and a police state where the leader made religious appeals to enforce his leadership.

LOL, you couldn't have chosen a worse counter-example, GiGi. Both countries have the same precise history over thousands of years, and both have the same chance of adopting democracy. That is, a pretty good chance for Iraq, with Japan as the precise example for how opposite a country can become a representative democracy.

Ogami, one request please, I have good friends who are Arab and while they sympathize with the Palestinians, they do not want to kill innocent Jews, I would appreciate it if you could refrain from painting all Arabs as Nazis, because the great majority of them are not.

I paint nothing, GiGi! It's called paying attention to the state-controlled news media and educational systems of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and the Palestinian Authority. Their own propaganda calls for the extermination of the hated jews, and this is more of a symptom of fearful dictators hoping to retain power by rabble-rousing than anything else. The moment these dictators no longer feel they need to excite anti-semitism to hold power is when the Middle East will finally be at peace.

(Oh, I forgot that the country surrounded on all sides by arab armies is the instigator of all strife in the region, if I were to use the wording of those arab dictatorships and their european moral allies.)

-Ogami

Edited by Ogami, 11 July 2004 - 04:58 PM.


#33 GiGi

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Posted 11 July 2004 - 09:22 PM

We shall see Ogami, my crystal ball says "answer hazy, ask again later."  I really don't know what will happen, I only said it wouldn't surprise me if it becomes a Religious rule and not a Democratic one.

Arab Dictatiors and Arab people are two differnent groups of people, I only ask that like you did in the previous post you do make the distinction.  That is all.
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#34 Ogami

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 05:39 PM

The arab people of the Middle East are good people.

-Ogami

#35 Nietrick

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 01:08 AM

I got the same kind of "don't lump us in" yelling when I spoke up for the first time here. Ogami and I have similar stances,so I feel I understand why he's so PO'd and not backing down.

America,our president,and this war gets attacked daily.Unfounded,mean spirited,and ignorant remarks hurled faster than we can dodge them.Anyone who doesn't want to roll over for terrorists and the UN is a warmonger. End of story,or so they would have you believe.

You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Wars will be fought and people will die. The difference is which side you're on.

I love how when someone is pro America and pro American policies,or not just rolling over for the whole "world village" idea that the UN tries to sell we're called inflammatory,but everyone else can say what they want.

This is a political forum. If you can't stand the heat...stay on the Beach.
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#36 Godeskian

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 01:22 AM

Nietrick, on Jul 13 2004, 07:06 AM, said:

I love how when someone is pro America and pro American policies,or not just rolling over for the whole "world village" idea that the UN tries to sell we're called inflammatory,but everyone else can say what they want.

This is a political forum. If you can't stand the heat...stay on the Beach.
chuckle

persecution complex much?

although your 'if you can't take the heat, stay on the beach' is almost deserving of a sig quote.

#37 G1223

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 01:27 AM

Nah sounds like some tired of being told to fit into the narrow box that others seem to have ways of getting around.  Well as long as their POV is anti Bush or Anti-American.
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#38 Godeskian

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 01:57 AM

G1223, on Jul 13 2004, 07:25 AM, said:

Well as long as their POV is anti Bush or Anti-American.
As opposed to the constant slamming and bitching and wining about Europe, and their arrogance, and their hatred towards the US?

like i said, persecution complex much?

#39 G1223

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 02:03 AM

Well when repeatedly attacked or seeing my country being attacked from with in and with out. I guess so. I mean it's not like the Moore Movie thread stayed on the topic of the movie but instead dropped down to Bush Bashing 101 with the mods either doing nothing or actively supporting it.


But hey that is fine.

Btw speaking about the Europe Bashing you either missed or failed to comment about the reply of mine which was "I said old not all" but hey when you guys are attacking things kinda sort get swepted under the rugs.

Hope we are giving as good as straw dogs are allowed.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

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#40 Aric

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 02:09 AM

Hi Ogami.  I can't tell if you're serious, your question about where was the Court?  Concerning itself with matters of law, in actual cases, no doubt, since nobody took a court case wanting to examine the legality of suicide bombings, it's kind of ridiculous, because there probably isn't a country in the world where such acts are not illegal.  What possible reason would the court have to examine that issue?  I have an idea, let's urge the US Supreme Court to demand an end to murders in the US, Ogami, imagine the effect such action would provide.  Perhaps you should review the purpose and scope of the World Court, Ogami, you seem to want them to be a political entity like the UN, which they are not.  They are a court of law.  Of course, unlike courts as we usually understand them, they have no real power to enforce their judgement.

The US has valid concerns about international tribunals being used against US people simply because they are US, but EU tribunals?  Why would the US ever be subject to the EU?  That being said, the legitimacy of many worldwide institutions are hurt by US unwillingness to cooperate, something that can frustrate other nations.  Well, Bush doesn't have to consider the Europeans superior, but he really should listen to other people's opinion every once in a while, hell, if he had listened to a few of his own people a year ago, we wouldn't have had such a big mess in post-war Iraq.  I should also mention many European nations warned of much the same thing.

Ogami, I have to admit, that is the most outrageous misrepresentation of the facts I have ever heard.  The Court hears cases, so unless a case is brought before them, they, like many Justices the world over, don't comment on it.  Who cares if the Court is outraged at a dictator's abuses?  They have no case before them, they have no standing, no right, no authority, to offer judgement.  The wall was an advisory case brought before them.  It has a simple question, is Israel's wall illegal or not?  They do not question Israel's right to defend itself, to arm itself, whatever, they look to see if Israel's wall is an illegal land grab or not.  They concluded, just like almost everyone else in the world, that Israel's wall is a land grab.  It's about the simplest thing, there's no hidden agenda, no anti-Israel, no anti-US sentiment, here.  I would suggest you're overreacting, Ogami.

Ogami, I was not aware the World Court was investigating US atrocities in Iraq.  In fact, I'm fairly certain they are not.  Perhaps you could provide a link?  Actually, Ogami, the World Court wouldn't be able to get involved in Iraq, since nobody has presented a case to them.  Maybe the ICC would get involved, but I doubt the US would allow that.

Where was the World Court?  Ogami, I'm starting to think you don't understand precisely what is the function of the court, and what is the function of the UN.  Each has their own purview in regards to international affairs, and nobody needs a court to say that aggressive attacks against a neighbouring country is in violation of international law.  That's really the point, Ogami, the Court interprets international law in regard to specific incidents, it judges legal disputes, usually between two nations.  I'm fairly certain neither Israel nor any of its neighbours took their dispute to the World Court, so no judgement was ever offered.  It's not akin to the Security Council, Ogami, so you should probably not expect them to make statements like the UN does.  Expect instead legal opinions, just like a court usually does present

Perhaps you missed the essential point, Ogami, the Palestinians are enduring hardships.  Now, let's try this at home.  When you wake up and go to work, Ogami, stop every 10-15 blocks, and wait at least a couple of hours.  These would be Israeli roadblocks.  Now, once a week, progress through at least three roadblocks, then turn back, this would be a roadblock that is closed, so now you can't go to work.  Don't forget to wait the extra couple of hours on your way home, as well.  Now, how productive do you think you'd be under those conditions?  As well, the Palestinians are living as refugees, many of them fled from their homes, some still have title to property going back to the Ottoman Empire.  So Ogami, move out of your home and take up in the cheapest motel you can find on the other side of town.  Tell me how much you'll enjoy living there.  Also, once a week, stay in your home, don't go to work, don't go to the store, this is a lockdown and curfew, courtesy of Israel.  Now, Ogami, let's get to the truly tragic part, consider that many of your friends, relatives, associates, are hurt from this.  A young child of a friend is killed by a stray bullet, an elderly mother of an associate died while trying to go to the hospital, held up at a roadblock.  This isn't to minimise Israeli victims, but it's to demonstrate a fundamental point, Ogami, businesses tend not to thrive in such an environment.  Besides, I've seen in the news a little while back how Israeli bulldozers destroyed a housing development in the West Bank financed by the international community.  I also saw on the news a while back about how illegal Israeli settlers were literally attacking Palestinians who tried to harvest their fruit trees, which the settlers decided they wanted and wouldn't let the Palestinians earn the livelihood, as they'd done for half a century.  Or how about on the news they showed a Palestinian hotel owner whose property is going to be destroyed to make room for the wall, in Palestinian territory.  I'm certain I've barely scratched the surface, so you tell me, Ogami, what do you expect?  There's no way Palestinians can prosper, and besides, why would Israel want them to?  If you consider it, if the Palestinians prosper, they will gain power and strength, their population is growing much faster than Israel's, they could rival Israel within a generation or two.  That's probably why Israel is willing to give up Gaza, described on the news as one of the most useless strips of land in the middle east, and why they are seizing so much of the West Bank.

Well, Ogami, if that's the answer, then why not follow Zack's suggestion, annex the whole of the occupied territories, and give the people citizenship in the new greater Israel-Palestine?  That would solve a lot of problems, especially since the way Israel is carving up the West Bank, there's not going to be any hope for a viable Palestinian nation of their own.

Actually, Ogami, in a perverse way, that is precisely what a lot of Palestinians are doing, taking their destinies in their own hands, by joining the ranks of suicide bombers.  It's the only way they believe they can fight for themselves.  They certainly can't take the field against the Israeli army, what other weapon do they have?

Actually, Ogami, since Israel never was actually occupied and no annexation was ever undertaken, and no case was every introduced, the Court really had no reason to say much of anything at all on the matter.

I have to say, Ogami, so what if some Palestinians celebrated 9/11?  Do they speak for every Palestinian?  Does that mean they forfeit their human rights?  Does that mean that Israel can trample all over them?  Does that make them something less than human?  Does that mean they don't deserve to be treated fairly?  So some people were happy about 9/11, a lot of Palestinians were upset about it, too.

I have to agree with Zack, Ogami, it's like you're arguing about something completely different.  I believe you have grossly misinterpreted the ruling, not to mention misunderstood the Court and its function.  This was not a judgement against Israel's right to exist and defend itself, it's about a shameless, illegal, land grab.  Wrap it up under all kinds of talk about democracy, right to defend itself, suicide bombings, and all that, but in the end, this wall is a land grab, simple as that.  No wall made with the singular purpose of protecting Israel would have ever been designed in such a way.  The court recognised that, and most of the world recognises it.

Aric



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