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#41 Corwin

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 09:22 PM

Rommie's Ronin, on Jul 14 2004, 07:30 PM, said:

My flippancy toward the Great Rite stems from the fact that Gardner introduced it into Wicca because he was into group sex, just like he introduced scourging and being skyclad because he was into bondage and nudity.
My feelings from Gardner and Gardnerian Wicca aside, do you realize the the Great Rite has been virtually the same ritual that has been performed by many religions of mostly agrarian societies since the dawn of recorded history?  Just because Gardner incorporated an existing rite doesn't make it any less valid than any other religious ceremony.  Flippancy towards Gardner, I can understand that and agree to an extent, but I do not care for flippancy towards any solemn religious rite.


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#42 Natasha Bennett

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 09:24 PM

Also true...I also admit that it's hard to not get angry in debate, especially when friends names come up. I know you didn't mean any harm  :)

But thing is, I don't want to turn this thread into Wiccans/versus other religeon flame war either. It does a great diservice to those who are interested in both.

Yes Opinions are good but can you understand that too? That's what I'm trying to prevent here, and I feel like it's bordering towards that.

'Cause those kind of threads majorly suck.   :p

edited to add that was addressed to Rommie's Ronin.

Edited by AndromedaAbyss, 14 July 2004 - 09:25 PM.


#43 Rommie's Ronin

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 09:33 PM

Corwin, on Jul 14 2004, 09:20 PM, said:

Rommie's Ronin, on Jul 14 2004, 07:30 PM, said:

My flippancy toward the Great Rite stems from the fact that Gardner introduced it into Wicca because he was into group sex, just like he introduced scourging and being skyclad because he was into bondage and nudity.
My feelings from Gardner and Gardnerian Wicca aside, do you realize the the Great Rite has been virtually the same ritual that has been performed by many religions of mostly agrarian societies since the dawn of recorded history?  Just because Gardner incorporated an existing rite doesn't make it any less valid than any other religious ceremony.  Flippancy towards Gardner, I can understand that and agree to an extent, but I do not care for flippancy towards any solemn religious rite.


Corwin
Yes, it's an ancient ritual and stems from the concept of hierogamos, or the sacred marriage.  It's literally older than dirt.  :lol:

However, the topic is Wicca, which is a modern religion, and Gardner inserted it for his own personal reasons...he liked to get laid in public.  Frat mentality aside, that's a bad reason.  It's also why it's been downplayed in various forms of Wicca since...oh...the late 60s.  I think even the Gardnerians do it only in private, but I'm not sure.
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#44 Shalamar

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 09:35 PM

RR Corwin is correct - Gardner, Crowley and others may have taken preexisting rituals and claimed them as theirs but that does not make them theirs.

I have never heard of scourgeing as part of any wiccan tradition, and as far as group sex/ ritual sex goes it's been around far longer than Gardner can claim.

And as far as being skyclad - take a long look at the Goddes figures found from neolithic times onward - they are not carved, drawn or otherwise depicted as clothed.

There is a very real symbolism to being nude in ritual, and again it is older than Gardner, even if the term 'sky clad' his invention.

Might I suggest a book, one that I consider takes a long and unbiased look at 'Wicca'.

Spiral Dance A rebirth of the Anchient Religion of the Great Goddess by StarHawk.

She does not fill the pages with 'fluffybunny' 'feelgood' - the bibliography is over 10 pages - she has done her research.
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#45 Rommie's Ronin

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 09:36 PM

AA said:

But thing is, I don't want to turn this thread into Wiccans/versus other religeon flame war either. It does a great diservice to those who are interested in both.

Yes Opinions are good but can you understand that too? That's what I'm trying to prevent here, and I feel like it's bordering towards that.

Not at all.  If I wanted to flame, the board would be on fire right now.  Let's just agree that all the facts need to come out.  Heck, if this were a thread about someone wanting to convert to Christianity, I'd be the first to jump in and point out that Christianity is full of jerks like St Augustine and Origen who, while they had a huge influence on theology, were sexist/racist pigs.  Everyone's dirty, and we should acknowledge that.
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#46 Rommie's Ronin

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 09:52 PM

Shalamar said:

I have never heard of scourgeing as part of any wiccan tradition, and as far as group sex/ ritual sex goes it's been around far longer than Gardner can claim.

Oh, it is.  In Garnerian Wicca it's part of the 1st degree initiation, and its recommended as an aid to astral projection and second sight.  In the first case, the initiator lightly scrourges the initiate and then allows the initiate to scourge him/her to demonstrate the concept of mercy.  In the second case, it stimulates blood flow...somehow this helps.

Quote

And as far as being skyclad - take a long look at the Goddes figures found from neolithic times onward - they are not carved, drawn or otherwise depicted as clothed.

Nudity is considered an art form...like Playboy as a modern example.  Think about this: Wicca started in England...an interesting place to be running around nude in the forest. But you're right, it's an old approach to magic.

Quote

Might I suggest a book, one that I consider takes a long and unbiased look at 'Wicca'.

Spiral Dance A rebirth of the Anchient Religion of the Great Goddess by StarHawk.

She does not fill the pages with 'fluffybunny' 'feelgood' - the bibliography is over 10 pages - she has done her research.

WOW!!!  :eek4:  I haven't read that book in...oh...15 years or so.  Interesting book and worth reading.  Didn't she list Margaret Murray in her biblio?

Edited by Rommie's Ronin, 14 July 2004 - 09:53 PM.

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#47 Corwin

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 09:54 PM

Shalamar, on Jul 14 2004, 08:33 PM, said:

RR Corwin is correct - Gardner, Crowley and others may have taken preexisting rituals and claimed them as theirs but that does not make them theirs.
And of course, Christianity did the same thing to a large extent.  "Pagan" means literally country dweller, and was first introduced in the middle ages in a derogatory conotation.  With larger populations living in cities and having access to churches, the Priests started calling the non-Christian country folk "pagans", and actively sought ways to convert them.  One of those ways was to incorporate various existing pagan rituals and holidays, therefore making it more comfortable to draw in converts.


Edited to add:   This is not meant as a slam on Christianity, but merely a notation of history.

Corwin

Edited by Corwin, 14 July 2004 - 09:57 PM.

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#48 Rommie's Ronin

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 09:58 PM

^Yup, and the Protestant movement largely centered around excising traditional Catholic elements from the Church because they were considered "pagan." :)
"Sure I wave the American flag. Do you know a better flag to wave? Sure I love my country with all her faults. I'm not ashamed of that, never have been and never will be." ---John Wayne

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#49 Uncle Sid

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 10:05 PM

Quote

Edited to add: This is not meant as a slam on Christianity, but merely a notation of history.

It definitely is history.  Pope St. Gregory the Great, a Doctor of the Church suggested incorporating those symbols to make the transition easier for the converted.  There's no inherent problem with this, Jesus himself used parables to discuss his teachings.  Just like the Prodigal Son was a fictional character, talking about certain fictional stories or older ritual practices to describe points of theology is not really a bad thing.  It *can* go too far, but there's no inherent contradiction or hypocrisy in it's use.
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#50 Norville

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 12:59 AM

Quote

Might I suggest a book, one that I consider takes a long and unbiased look at 'Wicca'.

Spiral Dance A rebirth of the Anchient Religion of the Great Goddess by StarHawk.

She does not fill the pages with 'fluffybunny' 'feelgood' - the bibliography is over 10 pages - she has done her research.

I want to make a comment which may offend Natasha -- I found Starhawk to be much more what I was looking for than was Silver Ravenwolf; indeed, I still consider Starhawk to be useful for my remaining pagan streak. (I've always been able to take her relatively seriously; she seems fairly sensible.) I read some Ravenwolf and was displeased with her tone (annoying comments that she apparently thought were cute and the like, but just made me want to snarl), which grated on me so much that I gave up and sold the two books of hers that I'd bought. *shrug* Just my experience...
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#51 Spacekiddy

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 03:54 AM

**waves** i'm a girl  ;)
Okay I made a list of the books mentioned, StarHawks, Silver Ravenwolfs, Yasmine Galenorn's, Kate West's, Patricia Telesco's, and Dorothy Morrison, i've got all the links in windows... (my computer hates me)  :hehe:

TTG nudism is optional, i don't like walking around in my swimwear so  :lol:

Quote

However, the topic is Wicca

but anyone of similar religion can put stuff in... ummm a neo-pagan thread? ack.. so many new words  :lol:
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#52 Natasha Bennett

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 11:08 AM

Norville,

Nah, that's fair.  :) But I find that all Wicca books are going to cost money (though I found this great used bookstore that sells some old ones) I have found Silver Ravenwolf's book, 'Teen witch', a good book for beginners but I personally haven't read her other two books yet. (For no other reason then the fact that I haven't had any cash lately on hand  :p ) 'Spiral Dance' I've only read half-way so far.

#53 prolog

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 11:35 AM

Rommie's Ronin: I think "wicca/wicce" in OE (for male/female figures, respectively) meant simply "witch".  My understanding is that the "shape/bend" derivation actually comes from "wik/weik", which is from the earlier Indo-European, and that the link between "wic" and "wik/weik" is contested by language scholars, and certainly not universally accepted.

Don't have my Guide to OE on me, though, so I can't say for sure.  Definitions are based on my shaky memory.

#54 Rommie's Ronin

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 02:36 PM

My understanding is that wicca or wicce was a matter of gender...one referred to men and one referred to women, but I don't remember which is which (no pun intended :)).

It is contested...heck, everything in history gets contested at least once.
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#55 Rommie's Ronin

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 02:46 PM

Anna, on Jul 14 2004, 09:29 AM, said:

In addition to what CH asked, I'm also interested in the definition of witchcraft. I admit I'm plagued by the movie definitions of all those horrible things that happen when you're in cahoots with the devil, etc. :D I'd like to know what you think witchcraft is... because I don't know.

BTW, is this the "not porn" thread that you asked about in AQG? Just curious.

Anna
Anna...it seems your question got lost.  Let me give you a definition of witchcraft.  Witchcraft is the art of controlling magical forces in order to bring about some outcome in the mundane world.  It usually involves charms, spells, herbalism, and stuff like that.  It's specialized; those in the know are better at it than someone who dabbles, as a rule.

It differs from Wicca in that Wicca is a nature religion that sometimes uses Witchcraft.  Witchcraft can be used by Satanists, for example, and often was throughout history.  There are also Christian witches in the Ozark mountains of my state.  Another example, read up on the Pow-Wows among the "Black Dutch" of Pennsylvania and their groovy barns. :)
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#56 Taryn Wander'r

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 07:04 PM

Just chiming in quickly, having not read the entire thread, but it IS a very interesting subject I know almost nothing about.

One of the guys I work with is Wicca, but he's also a jackass and no one likes him. It has nothing to do with his being Wicca (for me, anyway), but I think he imagines it does have something to do with his religion so he doesn't have to deal with having a crappy personality.

But anyway, a friend of mine from high school who was Wicca said to me something like a spell is like a prayer for a Christian, and that does explain 'healing' and things like that for me. The way a Christian would pray for a loved one who is sick, etc, is how Wiccans look at spells, at least to my understanding (?). And I think that's fair enough. A Christian will pray for whatever reason (besides just worship), and have faith that God may or may not answer their prayers, and I guess magick works the same way for Wiccans?

#57 Natasha Bennett

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 07:25 PM

Sort of. Wiccans do magic, and they do prayer too. Prayer we can do constantly (and I'm very happy to say that a few of mine have worked in the past.  :) ) Doing spells is, in essence, sending positive energy to said person, which brings up an interesting controversy in Wicca.

Wiccans are only permitted to do healing rituals and spells ONLY if the recipient understands what you're doing for them and has given EXPRESS permission. Otherwise, well, we have to do prayers. Please try and understand, we cannot do any sorts of magic, good or bad, without another's consent because that start to invade people's rights and Wiccans don't go there. We don't mess around with people without telling them, that's a 'no-no' in Wicca. At the very least, doing so while under the 'guilty' feelings of not telling also tends to mess up the spell and make it unpredictable. Perfect mind, perfect trust or else nothing is accomplished. I have been in those type of situations before and sometimes I actually find that prayer works just as well.

Which of course, brings up the controversy among Wiccans.

Edited by AndromedaAbyss, 15 July 2004 - 07:28 PM.


#58 Rommie's Ronin

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 07:44 PM

Ok, AA, question then...

Does Wicca predate Gardner?  If it does, then I'm sorry to say that practicing hereditary witches have no problem with casting spells with or without permission and casting curses on someone.  If you'd have made your statement to a country pellar in...say 1700s England...he/she would have laughed in your face.

If it does not predate Gardner then cool...I can see practitioners saying "Ok, no negative magic."  BUT...let me quote from one of the oldest claimants of Wicca... Sybil Leek (this comes from Jess Stern's Yoga, Youth and Reincarnation:

Sybil Leek said:

A Witch subscribes to black arts that have been handed down from time immemorial, generally within her own family.  She is in complete tune with the supernatural, believes in neither God nor Satan, only good and evil, which she can invoke at demand."

This book further tells the story of when Sybil was bilked out of a fee by a TV producer.  She told him that he would fall asleep at his desk everyday at 3pm.  After about a week of that, the guy paid up.  How did she do it?  She concentrated on him sleeping every day at 3.  Her words.  Seems she didn't ask for permission either.

Sybil was one of the biggest proponents of Wicca in the 60s and 70s.  She wrote tons of books on the subject.
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#59 Natasha Bennett

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 08:08 PM

Hm. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure but I think that it doesn't predate Gardner, but I confess to knowing little about that area. I will say, that every person in Wicca is different. They are expected to follow the rules. That doesn't mean they actually do. Wicca is a responsabilty too, and those that don't follow through with it with said responsability even remotely...well, that person isn't really following the path of Wicca and more of the black arts, which is again, not part of Wicca. And let me just say right off that cursing someone is a very serious disobidience of Wicca laws and those that do so freely and constantly are usually shunned by the Wicca community (because they're not considered a part of Wicca). However, in my brief time as a practicing Wicca I have never known people who are like that. Though, being mostly a solitary witch, my contact with others is usually limited until I decide otherwise, since there are a few popular covens where I live.

Based on what you told me about Sybil *that* is cursing, and I make no justifications for what she's done. Karma rules come into effect. As with every decision we make, we have to deal with the consequences. Sybil might have paid for what she's done in a way unknown to us.

Hope you can make sense out of my reasonings.  :p

Edited by AndromedaAbyss, 15 July 2004 - 08:16 PM.


#60 Natasha Bennett

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 08:13 PM

I'd like to ask right now if there are other registered or otherwise Wiccans on this board who would be interesting in answering these questions. They're pretty heavy issues and I would like a second voice.  :)

Edited by AndromedaAbyss, 15 July 2004 - 08:13 PM.




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