Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Wiccans Welcome

Religion Wicca

  • Please log in to reply
156 replies to this topic

#81 Norville

Norville
  • Islander
  • 4,501 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 11:15 AM

AndromedaAbyss said:

But I find that all Wicca books are going to cost money (though I found this great used bookstore that sells some old ones)

Since I work with books, I'm well aware that the only ones that are "free" are library books -- and, even then, the library had to pay to buy them, and one must pay for them if one loses them...

Yeah, they'll cost money whether they're Silver Ravenwolf or Starhawk. It's just that I found Starhawk to be a better use of my money. And, as said, I also sell books online, so when I sold my two Ravenwolf books, I got money for doing that. ;)

Rommie's Ronin said:

That's the oncoming problem with Wicca these days...that certain select group of people who think they can read a couple of Llewellyn books and suddenly they know it all.

Oh, that's been a problem for years now, actually -- for however long Llewellyn's been putting out those Wicca 101 books, and not more advanced ones for an older, more mature audience.

Morrhigan said:

As for picking up bits and pieces of other religions and applying them however you like, um... so what? What's wrong with that?

I understand how that happens. After all, I consider myself a mixture of Quaker, Zen, and pagan (of some sort, but not Wiccan). If that's invalid in someone's eyes, too bad. It suits *me*, and I'm long past tired of having to justify myself to others.

AndromedaAbyss said:

And one more thing about the whole buying-books-for-money issue. You can get a great deal of those same books in libraries too for free.

If they haven't been stolen either by superChristians who think that they're saving people from the occult by depriving them of books or by followers who don't want to return the book by a due date... :rolleyes:

Mr. Synystyr said:

while I agree that many that profess to be Wiccan or witches don't know as much as they should about their chosen path, to be fair, I could ask similar questions of a random sampling of Christians about their faith, even just about the Bible, and get the same response.

Agreed. There are plenty of Christians who aren't that well-educated about their faith, either.

Edit to fix a quote and to add this:

Rommie'sRonin said:

BTW, here's some more wisdom for you. Did you know the pentragram

Here's a bit of wisdom for you, RR. Did you know that the word is spelled "pentagram"? ;)

Edited by Norville, 16 July 2004 - 11:18 AM.

"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/

#82 Natasha Bennett

Natasha Bennett
  • Demigod
  • 2,667 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 11:15 AM

Whoopsee.  :eek:

I apologize. It's the avatar. And Rommie's Ronin-I think we can agree on one thing-the net is not the place to hear all the answers.  :) Starting any path of religion based on info from the net...well, that can lead badly.

Edited by AndromedaAbyss, 16 July 2004 - 11:17 AM.


#83 Rommie's Ronin

Rommie's Ronin

    Out Of The Silent Planet

  • Islander
  • 815 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 11:22 AM

Morrhigan, on Jul 15 2004, 11:45 PM, said:

Man, there are so many things to respond to, here! Let's see, one thing that bugged me was whoever said that there aren't any people who have been pagans for a long time (paraphrasing). I personally know dozens who've been Wiccan or pagan for decades. Literally decades. And I know of a lot more than that.
I had to respond to this. :D

Oh, hell yeah.  Janet Farrar. Gavin and Yvonne Frost. Otter and Morning Glory Zell. Robert Anton Wilson. Raymond Buckland is still kicking, AFAIK.  Tons of others.
"Sure I wave the American flag. Do you know a better flag to wave? Sure I love my country with all her faults. I'm not ashamed of that, never have been and never will be." ---John Wayne

http://www.smokingse...n.com/swafr.htm

#84 GiGi

GiGi

    Lipstick wearing PIG kisser!

  • Islander
  • 8,774 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 11:25 AM

Rommie's Ronin, on Jul 15 2004, 07:39 PM, said:

GiGi, on Jul 15 2004, 09:33 PM, said:

I want to post some things about Joesph of Aramathea, I need to find links, but it is believed that Jesus studied with the Druids as well as many other various spiritual teachers.  He was building a bridge to link Jerusalem to the Celtic lands.  He planted the holy thorn bush that is by I believe Glastonberry.  It was a symbol for the followers of Christ to connect with the Celts.  I will see if I can find some good links on this.  Very interesting story.
:eh:
Here are a couple of links to start -

The Legend of Joseph of Arimathea

Quote

Apparently, according to linguistic and architectural remnants, the Phoencians had a settlement near Cornwall. This supports the notion that early Druidic and Phoenician customs may have influenced each other. This is most clear in the story of Joseph of Arimathea.
Unfortunately, all written records of the Glastonbury area were lost when the original Abbey burned to the ground in the 11th century. If the Abbots had kept the original Druidic oral traditions alive, the stories would not have been lost. But rather, they followed the Roman precepts that all history was safe once it was written and catalogued. So what is left are mostly local legends as well as some archeological sites that refer to Joseph as well as to a visit made by Mary, Joseph and a young Jesus during a period of no New Testament references.

book reviews:

"History of the Kings of Britain"
Geoffrey of Monmouth

"I, Joseph of Arimathea"



The second book review is the one of interest -

Quote

The reason I have joined these two books is that they actually have much in common. Where The History of the Kings of Britain begins, I, Joseph of Arimathea tries to finish.

Like Geoffrey, Tribbe is essentially writing his ‘best guess’ at the history of the early Church of England based upon his sources, many of which have only come to light during the last 50-100 years. His theory: that Joseph of Arimathea, brother of Mary and great-uncle to Jesus, founded the first gentile Christian Church at what is now known as Glastonbury soon after the death of Jesus.

But what makes this book an interesting read is the amount of historical detail Tribbe lifts from to make his story. Books including the Dead Sea Scrolls, the apocryphal New Testament texts, the history of Judea written by first century writer Josephus, the texts of Nag Hammadi Library, the History of Britain by 4th century historian Gildas, as well as over 100 other sources including historical accounts from the very early Roman Christian Church.

What results from these sources is a very engaging tale of the early Celtic Christian Church that most likely has its roots in a visit from Jesus himself around the year 20 CE. While there are surviving fragments of this trip, both physical and some from local oral history, most of all the history of the area was lost with the Glastonbury blaze of the 1050s.

Ultimately, the book suggests an early cultural similarity (not all too different then that suggested by Geoffrey) between the British Celts/Druids and the early Judean/Christians. This is discussed through linguistics, for example. Certain Aramaic words have similarities to (ab)original British/English, much like many English words of today have elements of Latin.

Like Geoffrey, Tribbe wants to tell an interesting story. Unlike Geoffrey he fills gaps and often cites the historical sources. This creates a feel of believability, the essential quality of a bardic tale.
I enjoyed this rendering of the story so much that I was inspired to read Gildas, Nag Hammadi, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the new Scholars Version of the New Testament (new translations from the earliest Greek fragments), as to check for myself into the sources to determine the validity of Tribbe’s conclusions.

Remember, legend suggests that it was Joseph, accompanied by Mother Mary, who brought the ‘Grail’ to England for safe keeping, along with what is now referred to as the Glastonbury Thorn (a tree grown from the same tree as that which produced the crown of thorns).

Edited by GiGi, 16 July 2004 - 11:28 AM.

"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#85 Rommie's Ronin

Rommie's Ronin

    Out Of The Silent Planet

  • Islander
  • 815 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 11:30 AM

Norville said:

Oh, that's been a problem for years now, actually -- for however long Llewellyn's been putting out those Wicca 101 books, and not more advanced ones for an older, more mature audience.

Other companies do...they put out herb guides and such, real ones, I mean.  You hit the nail on the head though.

Quote

I understand how that happens. After all, I consider myself a mixture of Quaker, Zen, and pagan (of some sort, but not Wiccan). If that's invalid in someone's eyes, too bad. It suits *me*, and I'm long past tired of having to justify myself to others.

Justify yourself to no one.  However, expect to be tested.

Quote

If they haven't been stolen either by superChristians who think that they're saving people from the occult by depriving them of books or by followers who don't want to return the book by a due date...

Both instances with any kind of book pisses me off for so many reasons... :suspect:

Quote

Agreed. There are plenty of Christians who aren't that well-educated about their faith, either.

That's a shame isn't it?  Especially when most churches offer Sunday School classes to educate their members.  I paid attention...

Quote

Here's a bit of wisdom for you, RR. Did you know that the word is spelled "pentagram"? ;)

Here's yet another gem of wisdom for you...I can't spell.  :eek2:  :(  :lol:

Edited by Rommie's Ronin, 16 July 2004 - 11:31 AM.

"Sure I wave the American flag. Do you know a better flag to wave? Sure I love my country with all her faults. I'm not ashamed of that, never have been and never will be." ---John Wayne

http://www.smokingse...n.com/swafr.htm

#86 Mr. Synystyr

Mr. Synystyr

    Watching from the shadows...

  • Islander
  • 459 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 11:37 AM

Rommie's Ronin, on Jul 16 2004, 09:09 AM, said:

Uh-uh.  It ain't that easy.
:grins:  I have a policy of never debating religion or politics with anyone; it just isn't worth it.  No one is going to change their beliefs based on anything I say; at least, I hope not.  The best I can hope for is to (maybe) open their minds a bit.  I only spoke up to be fair.

Make up your own list of questions about Christianity, or the Bible, that you feel are of equal depth to those you asked here, and try to get a random sampling of Christians to answer them.  The results will likely disappoint you.  I know they disappoint me.

I'm not Wiccan, nor a witch.  I can answer your questions for the same reason I can ask similar questions about Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc. - I studied them.  That's the kind of person I am, and that it seems you are; however, I know that the vast majority do not study their chosen path, or any other, they simply have faith, and for them, it is enough.  I envy you the faith you have found; I'm still looking.

Love and laughter!

Jason

Feel the velvet darkness caressing you...

#87 Anakam

Anakam

    Way Star

  • Islander
  • 13,862 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 11:42 AM

Hrm.  Is a curious non-pagan welcome?  I've no intention of becoming a pagan ;)  but there's not really any chances to learn about it in school so I know very little about Wicca, etc. :blush:
Sailing free, boundless glimmer, golden whispers, fiery poise, delicate balance, grave and true, bound by earth, feared horizons, courageous steps unknown, shimmering future hidden yet unveiled....

I think you're the first female cast member to *insist* on playing a guy ;) - Iolanthe, on my cross-casting obsession.

This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle, this earth of majesty, this seat of Mars, this other Eden, demi-paradise, this fortress built by Nature for herself... - John of Gaunt, Act II, Scene I, Richard II

"I think perhaps that was a sub-optimal phrasing for the maintenance of harmony within the collective." - Omega, here

"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?" - Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy

#88 Rommie's Ronin

Rommie's Ronin

    Out Of The Silent Planet

  • Islander
  • 815 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 11:42 AM

^Unfortunately, you're probably right. <sigh>

Talking to Mr. Synyster.

Sure Anakam! Wade in!!!  :D

Edited by Rommie's Ronin, 16 July 2004 - 11:43 AM.

"Sure I wave the American flag. Do you know a better flag to wave? Sure I love my country with all her faults. I'm not ashamed of that, never have been and never will be." ---John Wayne

http://www.smokingse...n.com/swafr.htm

#89 Anakam

Anakam

    Way Star

  • Islander
  • 13,862 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 11:48 AM

Rommie's Ronin, on Jul 16 2004, 05:40 PM, said:

Sure Anakam! Wade in!!!  :D
Thanks--I've got to catch up on all this first, so once I do I'm likely to be asking pretty strange questions.  :blush:

#90 Delvo

Delvo
  • Islander
  • 9,273 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 12:13 PM

Mr. Synystyr, on Jul 16 2004, 10:35 AM, said:

Rommie's Ronin, on Jul 16 2004, 09:09 AM, said:

Uh-uh.  It ain't that easy.
Make up your own list of questions about Christianity, or the Bible, that you feel are of equal depth to those you asked here, and try to get a random sampling of Christians to answer them. The results will likely disappoint you. I know they disappoint me.
From the description of "wiccalets", it seems that the defining trait isn't really just ignorance, but something else that really is fairly unique to paganism in the modern USA (and maybe other Occidental countries): the use of Wicca/Witta/WatcteverYouCallIt as a form of rebellion or attention-seeking, or to feign exoticness or sophisticated separateness. Then it's not a religion but a gimmick or fetish of the waccalet's psychological issues.

Edited by Delvo, 16 July 2004 - 12:24 PM.


#91 Mr. Synystyr

Mr. Synystyr

    Watching from the shadows...

  • Islander
  • 459 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 12:20 PM

Delvo, on Jul 16 2004, 10:11 AM, said:

From the description of "wiccalets", it seems that the defining trait isn't really just ignorance, but something else that really is fairly unique to paganism in the modern USA (and maybe other Occidental countries): the use of Wicca/Witta/WatcteverYouCallIt as a form of rebellion or attention-seeking, or to feign exoticness or sophisticated separateness. Then it's not a religion but a gimmick or fetish of the waccalet's psychological issues.
While I would not argue that some teens that claim to be Wiccan use it as you mention, I would say that an equal percentage of teen Christians often profess their faith more to fit in socially, than out of any real faith in Jesus or God.  Does that reduce the validity of Christianity?  Again, just speaking up for fairness.
Feel the velvet darkness caressing you...

#92 Rommie's Ronin

Rommie's Ronin

    Out Of The Silent Planet

  • Islander
  • 815 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 12:43 PM

Can I answer that as well? :D

No.

Teens who profess faith in Christ but don't follow him in their hearts are hypocrites, and Christ went out of His way to address that issue.  They always get what they're looking for...remember the Pharisees?

In tandem with that...that sort of behavior doesn't reduce the validity of Christianity because Christianity's validity stands or falls on two things: 1) the authority of the Bible as Good News for humankind and which is THE source for every denomination I can think of, and 2) the authority of the Church (whatever denomination but established by Christ through either the succession of Peter or the faith he expressed, take your pick...) and its abiity to determine who's a member and who's not.

Now, I'm not stupid.  I know there are teens (and adults as well) who keep a good appearance and are really rotten to the core.  You can't play the game of "He's a Christian...she's not."  However, time will tell.  Plus...plus...exposure to the Church and to Christian teaching just might bring one of them around.  I've seen it happen.

Edited to add: but let's not derail the thread too much, huh? :)

Edited by Rommie's Ronin, 16 July 2004 - 12:48 PM.

"Sure I wave the American flag. Do you know a better flag to wave? Sure I love my country with all her faults. I'm not ashamed of that, never have been and never will be." ---John Wayne

http://www.smokingse...n.com/swafr.htm

#93 Mr. Synystyr

Mr. Synystyr

    Watching from the shadows...

  • Islander
  • 459 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 12:59 PM

Here's where I have to step aside, then, both to avoid derailing the thread, and to maintain my policy of not debating religion.  I add one last question before I step aside.  Please do not answer, but perhaps just think on it - what makes the Bible or any Christian Church more of an authority, or more valid, than any other holy text or organized faith, if anything?  Number of followers doesn't count; this isn't a popularity contest.  We're talking about spiritual issues here.

That's my cue to go back to lurking for a bit.  Best to all, always!

Jason


edit for spelling   :)

Edited by Mr. Synystyr, 16 July 2004 - 01:00 PM.

Feel the velvet darkness caressing you...

#94 Rommie's Ronin

Rommie's Ronin

    Out Of The Silent Planet

  • Islander
  • 815 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 01:29 PM

Good question, hard question, but of course I have the answer. :)

I'd like to see more Neo-pagans/Wiccans chime in on this thread for the sake of SpaceKiddy.  There's tons of material concerning Wicca that hasn't even been touched yet.  Just the basics, as usual.
"Sure I wave the American flag. Do you know a better flag to wave? Sure I love my country with all her faults. I'm not ashamed of that, never have been and never will be." ---John Wayne

http://www.smokingse...n.com/swafr.htm

#95 Kosh

Kosh

    Criag Ferguson For President!

  • Islander
  • 11,143 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 03:07 PM

Mr. Synystyr, on Jul 16 2004, 12:57 PM, said:

Here's where I have to step aside, then, both to avoid derailing the thread, and to maintain my policy of not debating religion.  I add one last question before I step aside.  Please do not answer, but perhaps just think on it - what makes the Bible or any Christian Church more of an authority, or more valid, than any other holy text or organized faith, if anything?  Number of followers doesn't count; this isn't a popularity contest.  We're talking about spiritual issues here.

That's my cue to go back to lurking for a bit.  Best to all, always!

Jason


edit for spelling   :)
Depends on your perspective. If you are christain, then nothing else counts. "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me" and no graven images and all that.
Can't Touch This!!

#96 Rommie's Ronin

Rommie's Ronin

    Out Of The Silent Planet

  • Islander
  • 815 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 04:15 PM

Have you read any of my posts here?  I'm actually defending the religions and I'm a Christian. Besides, that's Judaic law you're quoting.

Edited by Rommie's Ronin, 16 July 2004 - 04:16 PM.

"Sure I wave the American flag. Do you know a better flag to wave? Sure I love my country with all her faults. I'm not ashamed of that, never have been and never will be." ---John Wayne

http://www.smokingse...n.com/swafr.htm

#97 Mr. Synystyr

Mr. Synystyr

    Watching from the shadows...

  • Islander
  • 459 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 04:45 PM

Just to help get things back on track, I have a question: what attracted you (those of you that have not already explained) to Wicca or witchcraft?  This is not meant as a challenge; I honestly enjoy hearing about what draws people to their faith.  This may also be of help to Spacekiddy, I hope.   :blush:

Edited by Mr. Synystyr, 16 July 2004 - 04:46 PM.

Feel the velvet darkness caressing you...

#98 Tisiphone

Tisiphone

    Dark Valkyrie

  • Islander
  • 88 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 05:08 PM

I wouldn't describe myself as a Wiccan, but I do believe in the gods/goddesses of old, rather than one god.  My sister was once a practicing Wiccan, but it took a lot of time and effort, that of which she eventually didn't have.  I've always been fascinated by Wicca, and have read up on it as much as I can, but again, the time and effort it takes to develop your craft is something I don't have right now, either.  Hopefully once I get settled into my new apartment, far away from the prying eyes of the parentals, I can do more about it.

For now, I guess I'm just a plain old Pagan.  <g>

-Cy
I have no skeletons in the closet...they're all in jail

#99 Morrhigan

Morrhigan
  • Islander
  • 1,546 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 08:29 PM

AAAGH!!! I was well into a big long reply when I hit some wrong button and it all disappeared!!!!!

Okay. Starting over...

RommiesRonin, you sound like some Wiccans I've come across who have a certain definition of who is a "Real Wiccan." They generally look down their noses at those who haven't studied the sort of things you listed, and consider newer versions of Wicca to be corruptions or "lite" versions of The Real Thing. What I don't understand is, who decided the requirements? Gardner? Alexander? Valiente? The first covens, or the ones a decade or two later? And more important... why should I take on that definition as my own? Wicca is a growing, living religion like many others.

Look at how Christianity has grown and changed. For centuries, the Catholic church was the only game in town. I seriously doubt that most of the Fundamentalist ministers out there today could tell you the books of the Apocrypha and how they affected the early church, could say the Mass in latin, or even tell you the difference between the Council of Nicea and the Council of Trent. Protestants and fundamentalists have gone in different directions from the Catholics, dropping many things that they didn't agree with and incorporating other things that they considered important.

Likewise, Wicca is growing and changing - albeit at a faster pace. I have no interest in being a strict Gardnerian Wiccan, any more than I want to be a Medieval Catholic.

The ATC, where I earned my degrees, emphasizes the basics for first level, and allows for individual interests to influence the requirements for higher degrees. My focus was ritual drama, particularly the Rites of Eleusis, so I'm more well versed in ancient Greek practices than English or Celtic.

Anyway... judge me however you wish, if my religious practices are invalid in your eyes, that's okay. I'll still respect yours. :)
Posted Image

#100 Morrhigan

Morrhigan
  • Islander
  • 1,546 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 08:39 PM

Rommie's Ronin, on Jul 16 2004, 08:20 AM, said:

Morrhigan, on Jul 15 2004, 11:45 PM, said:

Man, there are so many things to respond to, here! Let's see, one thing that bugged me was whoever said that there aren't any people who have been pagans for a long time (paraphrasing). I personally know dozens who've been Wiccan or pagan for decades. Literally decades. And I know of a lot more than that.
I had to respond to this. :D

Oh, hell yeah.  Janet Farrar. Gavin and Yvonne Frost. Otter and Morning Glory Zell. Robert Anton Wilson. Raymond Buckland is still kicking, AFAIK.  Tons of others.
LOL, yeah, those are the BNPs (Big Name Pagans) that have been around for ages. Otter and Morning Glory are a littlge out there if you ask me, but very sweet people. Janet Farrar.... eeeehhhhh... not exactly my favorite person, but her late Husband Stewart was a dear. I seem to recall a guy named Gavin coming to a festival with them a few years back - was that Gavin Frost?

Actually, the people I was referring to are ones I know in the Seattle WA and Portland OR communities, not well known anywhere, but have been Wiccan or Pagan for decades. :)
Posted Image



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Religion, Wicca

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users