Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Spirituality v. Religion

Spirituality Religion

  • Please log in to reply
69 replies to this topic

#41 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 03 August 2004 - 01:42 PM

I think that Ogami's and Chaddee's posts illustrate the personal nature of spirituality.

Just sayin'...:)
Posted Image

#42 Hambil

Hambil
  • Islander
  • 5,492 posts

Posted 03 August 2004 - 01:54 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Aug 3 2004, 06:35 PM, said:

Hambil, on Aug 3 2004, 05:37 AM, said:

Okay, since everyone seems to think that spirituality is just religion lite
Mind telling me what, specifically, I said that made you think that?

Yes, imo, spirituality *for me* involves the belief in the existence of a higher power.
At the time I posted it, nobody in the thread had yet said that you could have spirituality without a belief in God/Higher Power. You answered your own question: To me, believing in God but not organized religion, is 'religion lite'. It was perhaps a more inflamitory label than I intended it to be :dontgetit:

#43 Hambil

Hambil
  • Islander
  • 5,492 posts

Posted 03 August 2004 - 02:00 PM

Ogami, on Aug 3 2004, 06:38 PM, said:

I haven't demonized anything, Stonehenge is generally agreed-upon to have been part of an ancient religion. Records about the Celts and Druids are quite sparse, your categorical descriptions of what they did and did not do are ludicrous. Julius Caesar is our chief source of history of the ancient Britons, and I happened to have read his Annals.
Er, you can major in Celtic Studies. Their history is one of the richest on the planet.

#44 GiGi

GiGi

    Lipstick wearing PIG kisser!

  • Islander
  • 8,774 posts

Posted 03 August 2004 - 02:09 PM

Ogami, on Aug 3 2004, 11:38 AM, said:

I haven't demonized anything, Stonehenge is generally agreed-upon to have been part of an ancient religion. Records about the Celts and Druids are quite sparse, your categorical descriptions of what they did and did not do are ludicrous. Julius Caesar is our chief source of history of the ancient Britons, and I happened to have read his Annals.

I mentioned Stonehenge in context of ancient religions that are worshipped no more, I could have equally chosen the worship of Chemosh or Atun. Sorry to bother you and your drum.
I agree with Chaddee.  If you are going to throw out derogatory stereotypes against something that is important to other people, at least get it correct.

I have studied Druidic teachings for several years, we aren't some group of wackos beating human skin drums at Stonehenge.  In fact Stonehenge is far older than the Druids and there is some question as to if the Druids even used it as a place of worship.  It is a giant Astrolab actually, used to make the sun's progress throughout the year.  We don't really know if the ancients who put it up worshippd there or not.  You may be referencing the "New Age" fantasy of Druids and not what it really was about.  There is no evidence of human sacrifice other than what the Romans have written which is basically proproganda.  There is evidence of willing sacrifice, but to get into that, I would have to take this conversation way off topic.

Quote

I feel spiritual when I see nature, the natural world

Ironically that is what the Druidic worship is based in.  And people still carry on the traditions, I have learned from teachers from Scotland where the Druidic teachings have been handed down from generation to generation.  So you are even wrong about it not being a form of worship anymore.
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#45 Cyncie

Cyncie

    Cool Daddio!

  • Islander
  • 689 posts

Posted 03 August 2004 - 02:23 PM

"Religion Lite" implies that spirituality without organized religion is always a cop out, when it's often simply a rejection of what's wrong in the flawed, human organization of religion. I do belong to an organized religion, but my personal spiritual journey is just that... personal. It is not dependent on my church, but on me.

I see spirituality as the individual search for spiritual meaning or experience. Done right, religion is the corporate expression of spiritual experience. Problem is, imperfect people run churches, just like any other organization. So, problems arise when people focus on the practice of religion rather than encouragement of spiritual growth.

But, spirituality of any kind automatically assumes that humanity has a spiritual nature. That we are more than just the physical container we inhabit, and that the spiritual nature must be explored and developed. Of course, some spiritual practices, like Budhhism, emphasize the inner journey toward personal enlightenment, and don't assume a deity. But, even those practices admit that human beings have a spiritual self.

So, I would think, to be considered a spiritual seeker, one would have to admit to a spirit nature. Those who reject that concept develop their own personal philosophies for improvement and actualization of the self.

~Cyn
*****

Goodnight, Sweetheart
Well, it's time to go...

#46 WildChildCait

WildChildCait

    And from the ashes of fire, she is reborn

  • Islander
  • 3,416 posts

Posted 03 August 2004 - 02:38 PM

Lil: fair point.  :cool: And yes, walking hte walk is just as important, if not more so, than talking the talk.


Ogami: you don't call saying that a certain religion goes against all normal morals and ethics in one of the most extreme ways is not demonisation? As I would.
I find it vaguely amusing that if you make sweeping generalisations about the celts and druids it's got to be true, but if I do it's ludicrous. This strikes me as.....odd, to say at the least. Congratulations on reading Julius Ceasars annals, however, they are by far not the only source of history, and the Celts have many, many sources, considering they where spread over a goodly part of europe!


On a side note, who says druids don't worship any more? Try checking into OBOD
You also just proved my point of not needing a cult to be spiritual, thank you.


Gigi: I'd heard of some folks in scotland having a more or less family tradition, but you're the first i've come across who can actually verify that ;-) thanks.

Cheers
Chaddee
RIP Ruby Medallion: 31-10-1999/21-05-2007
one gender-reassigned, world travelling, world class snake.

FKA Chaddee, amongst other things.
http://scentedalchemy.webs.com Custom handmade bath and body products

#47 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 03 August 2004 - 02:59 PM

Cyncie, on Aug 3 2004, 12:21 PM, said:

"Religion Lite" implies that spirituality without organized religion is always a cop out
Thanks Cyncie.  I have to admit that that's kinda how it came across to me buy hey this is all a matter of personal perspective anyways.  What I believe is really not something that's in anyone elses' control and vice versa so...:)

Quote

, when it's often simply a rejection of what's wrong in the flawed, human organization of religion.

I think it *can* be that.  I think however that it doesn't have to be either of the two above.  For me it's just a matter of having faith in a higher power without regard to any individual religion.  

Oh and cyberhippie  in answer to your post about believing that it all is just a coincidence...I don't think it says anything about you beyond that this is what you believe.  The purpose of this thread is not to judge anyone or put anyone down for having different beliefs.  I just think it's an interesting topic worthy of discussion.  :)

Lil
Posted Image

#48 Ogami

Ogami
  • Islander
  • 2,976 posts

Posted 03 August 2004 - 02:59 PM

GiGi wrote:

I have studied Druidic teachings for several years, we aren't some group of wackos beating human skin drums at Stonehenge. In fact Stonehenge is far older than the Druids and there is some question as to if the Druids even used it as a place of worship.

Ah, I see what you mean. Yes, I was referring to the builders of Stonehenge, part of that enormous "Menhir" neolithic culture that had huge monoliths all over Europe, especially France. What people did in the thousands of years after that, dancing around Stonehenge, is their business.

There is no evidence of human sacrifice other than what the Romans have written which is basically proproganda.

Without Caesar's work, we wouldn't know nearly anything about the history, leaders, or culture of primitive Europe. Like Herodotus, you take his perspective with a grain of salt, however.

Ironically that is what the Druidic worship is based in. And people still carry on the traditions, I have learned from teachers from Scotland where the Druidic teachings have been handed down from generation to generation.

I guess it won't help if I say I play a Half-Orc Druid in Dungeons and Dragons. His name is Orf. He whacks people with his club and casts "Entangle" and "Goodberry" spells. His catchphrase is "Now Orf will whack!"

I guess that's my spiritual side.

-Ogami

#49 Ogami

Ogami
  • Islander
  • 2,976 posts

Posted 03 August 2004 - 03:01 PM

Chaddee wrote:

On a side note, who says druids don't worship any more?

Only in the sense that someone wearing a necklace of their name in Egyptian hieroglyphs has anything to do with their ancient religion and their actual practices.

Try checking into OBOD You also just proved my point of not needing a cult to be spiritual, thank you.

I think people are innately spiritual without anything to do with religion. This can manifest itself in many forms, but I don't think of it in religious terms at all.

-Ogami

#50 Hambil

Hambil
  • Islander
  • 5,492 posts

Posted 03 August 2004 - 03:06 PM

Can I join the game as Jebus, the half ogre christain who can turn water to wine and walk on water and beat people up with his cross? My catch phrase can be "Now Jebus whack other cheek!"

Edited by Hambil, 03 August 2004 - 03:06 PM.


#51 Ogami

Ogami
  • Islander
  • 2,976 posts

Posted 03 August 2004 - 06:00 PM

Sounds like he has a shortened version of the Golden Rule, just "Do Unto Others".

Edited by Ogami, 03 August 2004 - 06:00 PM.


#52 Delvo

Delvo
  • Islander
  • 9,273 posts

Posted 03 August 2004 - 06:53 PM

Cyberhippie, on Aug 3 2004, 01:58 AM, said:

Kevin Street, on Aug 3 2004, 08:24 AM, said:

It's something built into our bodies, I think, just like pattern recognition. When we look at clouds our brains tell us that there's faces and castles in the sky, and when we look at natural events like lightning strikes, earthquakes, fires, births, rains and deaths, we see meaning behind them too. We can't help looking for patterns in the world around us, and that leads to spiritual beliefs, and eventually the beliefs get codified into religions.
If you don't mind me asking Kevin, if what you say is accurate, how do you explain atheism?
Seeking explanations for how the world works is built in. Willingness to accept made-up ones and ones that lack evidence or even contradict it is not.

#53 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 03 August 2004 - 06:58 PM

^ I don't think there *needs* to be evidence for every single thing I believe.  If something makes me feel better and doesn't hurt anyone else (or me) then that's really enough, at least right now it is.  Maybe that's the definition of faith.  I dunno.  Right now, I don't *need* to know.
Posted Image

#54 Hambil

Hambil
  • Islander
  • 5,492 posts

Posted 03 August 2004 - 07:14 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Aug 3 2004, 11:56 PM, said:

I don't think there *needs* to be evidence for every single thing I believe.
In science, and philosophy, belief must exceed evidence. Otherwise you stagnate. I don't know that the same is true for religion, because evidence is not the point. If you had evidence you wouldn't need faith, is sort of how I understand it.

#55 Themis

Themis
  • Islander
  • 6,544 posts

Posted 03 August 2004 - 07:57 PM

Great thread!

To me, spirituality is a sense that there is something greater than oneself, even if you might not be able to define it.  

Religion is a belief in a particular doctrine, set down by earthly "experts" such as priests, with its own set of rules for behavior, worship and such.  A belief in a particular god, belief that certain groups have a corner on the truth, etc. etc.  

Spirituality is more general; religion is particular.

Themis
Cats will never be extinct!

#56 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 9,215 posts

Posted 03 August 2004 - 10:15 PM

To me, spirituality, religion and faith all overlap.

Using the Merriam-Webster On-line Dictionary:

Quote

Faith:
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
Religion:
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

Faith, Trust, Belief all meld together, but you can have faith in lots of things, its not religious in and of itself though someone may argue it shows a need for people to put belief in something/someone, even if when they are 2 that someone is mom or dad, and when they are teenagers its a rock star that makes their parents tell them to turn down the volumn on their stereo all of the time ;)

Quote

Religion:1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

Can a person be "religious" and not followed an organized religion? Depends on how you take the wording of some of these defintions, whether they meld w/ spirituality. When I look at the beauty of nature, spend time alone in the presense of nature, I feel like I am doing something spiritual/religious. I'm observing, and spending time w/ something important, to my spiritual beliefs. Same with following my personal beliefs and morals. Does that count as "service and worship"? It would, perhaps, according to definition 2, it doesn't only say insituationalized systems, but personal systems as well. And definition just cinches it.


Quote

Spirituality:
1 : something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the church or to a cleric as such
2 : CLERGY
3 : sensitivity or attachment to religious values
4 : the quality or state of being spiritual

It seems to be related solely to religion, until you look at the 4th definition.

Since the last definition is the one that seems to be debated most:

Quote

Spiritual:
Adjective:
1 : of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : INCORPOREAL <man's spiritual needs>
2 a : of or relating to sacred matters <spiritual songs> b : ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal <spiritual authority> <lords spiritual>
3 : concerned with religious values
4 : related or joined in spirit <our spiritual home> <his spiritual heir>
5 a : of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena b : of, relating to, or involving spiritualism : SPIRITUALISTIC
Noun:
1 plural : things of a spiritual, ecclesiastical, or religious nature

You can be both spiritual and religious, but you don't need to be religious to be spiritual. But as mentioned after religions definition, are they really any different? To me, personally, religion is more of a grand organized thing.

*I* think what a lot of people do is that they don't think of unorganized religions/faiths, or more personal beliefs as valid. A lot of people all agree that everyone is entiled to their own opinion, and usually are less likely to look too far down on differenting opinions, than they are on "spiritual" religions. (for lack of a better term, certainly isn't something easily definable, from individual belief systems to "pagan" religions, to Wicca, basically any non-main-stream religion, or new religions). Of course there is nothing to back up that statement ;) And it certainly that cover all, or most people, there are people that look down on any differering opinion, and that'd include differering religions. Its just my experience, where-as people will be willing to listen to people talk about an opposing view on some topic other than religion even if they'll never agree with them, as soon as they hear a "floozie" (in their opinion) religion mentioned they stop hearing.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#57 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 03 August 2004 - 11:21 PM

Themis, on Aug 3 2004, 05:55 PM, said:

Great thread!

To me, spirituality is a sense that there is something greater than oneself, even if you might not be able to define it.  

Religion is a belief in a particular doctrine, set down by earthly "experts" such as priests, with its own set of rules for behavior, worship and such.  A belief in a particular god, belief that certain groups have a corner on the truth, etc. etc.  

Spirituality is more general; religion is particular.

Themis
I think that pretty much works for me Themis.

Glad you like the thread.:)

Lil
Posted Image

#58 Monsters Cry Alone

Monsters Cry Alone

    Can't You See I'm Bleeding?

  • Islander
  • 5,683 posts

Posted 04 August 2004 - 12:25 AM

I think I have an opinion here...

Sprituality is totally unique to the individual but it is my belief that everyone is spritual in their own way.

Religion however is another matter entirely... Religion is something invented by men to control women, and even those parts of, for example, the bible that according to history women played a big role in, have been play down or left out entirely if they didn't meet the male orintated criteria. Ok so it wasn't just to control women, it was a good way of controling the general populous, "If you're wicked (insert deity here) will strike you down/punish you in the after life... whatever.

So IMO Sprituality=Good Religion=Bad


Clari

Apologies for spelling and grammatical errors but I'm without my spellchecker atm.


Generally just not missed


#59 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,302 posts

Posted 04 August 2004 - 12:39 AM

I just wanted to chime in to say that I appreciate all the opinions here....

and I wanted to ask a question, of those who feel that controlling the populace is somehow bad.  What makes it so?  Is it bad because we don't trust the controller? Is it bad because the direction of control is bad? Or is it bad in general?   IF its bad in general, and that is because it is manmade in the opinion of some, is government also bad?

Answering in part my own questions - I think that we can always see the truth of religion when we evaluate the effect of the controls it offers.  Are these controls oppressive?  If so, then chances are that the religion is some hundreds of years removed from the founder of the faith, and the controls installed are based on human interpretation.  OR - someone just made something up for the sake of controlling people (cults).  We are gifted with the power of discernment - we can recognize the true from the false with relative ease.  

On Planet Baha'i, when this topic came up, I pointed out that the organization, or "controls" as some may call it, of the religion of God, as revealed by the Prophet-Founder in every age, served as a thread that binded the community together.  Over time, people alter, restrict, add layers upon the faith in order to box people in.  This is not the work of true religion - it is the manipulation of religion to serve political ends.  It is this process of transformation that is so intriguing to read in the Bible.  We can look at the community every time God raised a Prophet and see how God reorganized people to liberate them, and how over time, people innovated and created ways to hogtie the religious community... by the time Jesus appears on the scene, the people are literally in chains to the whims of the Pharisees and other religious scholars.... not very unlike the way Islam is today with the Mullahs, and such...

HM07

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#60 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 04 August 2004 - 01:08 AM

Handmaiden07, on Aug 3 2004, 10:37 PM, said:

I just wanted to chime in to say that I appreciate all the opinions here....

and I wanted to ask a question, of those who feel that controlling the populace is somehow bad.  What makes it so?  Is it bad because we don't trust the controller? Is it bad because the direction of control is bad? Or is it bad in general?   IF its bad in general, and that is because it is manmade in the opinion of some, is government also bad?
Good questions.  Obviously without *some* control there would be anarchy (at least that's how I see it).  I mean the entire body of laws in the US, for example, is a manifestation of someone controlling society.

The difference when it comes to religion (for me) is that most religions purport to be manifesting or preaching or furthering the word of some higher power, which, according to the religion, gives them the right to impose some kind of control (just for example, let's look at the Catholic Church and its restrictions on divorce, contraception, gay marriage, female priests, and the like).  Thing is that the ones "speaking" for "god" are just men.  And they are fallible.  Which makes giving them that kind of control all the more dangerous precisely *because* they claim to be speaking for "god". Again, that's just my take.

Lil
Posted Image



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Spirituality, Religion

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users