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Woman Fired For Eating 'Unclean' Meat

Religion Islam Unclean Meat Workplace

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#41 emsparks

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 01:11 PM

Nonny, on Aug 5 2004, 01:26 PM, said:

Cheile, on Aug 5 2004, 05:18 PM, said:

i agree with Sparky on your incident, Nonny.  that is appalling.  if they're so afraid of "unclean" patients, they need to get out of the nursing business.

as for the topic of this thread i think it is discrimination.  i don't see how an employer can tell their employees what they can and cannot eat.  if these Muslim (or whateveR) managers are so afraid of "unclean" appliances they should get their own microwave/tables/etc.  they can afford it with the money that upper management makes.
Ritually unclean has certainly become a hot button issue for me.  

Does anyone know how pork was determined to be ritually unclean?  One theory I heard a while back dwelt on the deliciousness of pork, suggesting that denial is a minor form of ascetism.  

Nonny
There is two reasons for a biblical prohibition against pork, and some other meats, and shell fish.

The first reason is trichinosis. (as JID said -- Sorry for the cross post)

The second reason is the classic way of keeping and feeding hogs / pigs with all forms of garbage and household waste, and parts of other animals, the so-called pigpen. Many deadly viruses are transmitted by touch.

Much of the Old Testament has to do with disease prevention, which is one of the reasons why Jews and Muslims must wash before going to worship.

Sparky::

Edited by emsparks, 05 August 2004 - 01:15 PM.

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#42 Nonny

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 01:47 PM

emsparks, on Aug 5 2004, 06:09 PM, said:

Nonny, on Aug 5 2004, 01:26 PM, said:

Cheile, on Aug 5 2004, 05:18 PM, said:

i agree with Sparky on your incident, Nonny.  that is appalling.  if they're so afraid of "unclean" patients, they need to get out of the nursing business.

as for the topic of this thread i think it is discrimination.  i don't see how an employer can tell their employees what they can and cannot eat.  if these Muslim (or whateveR) managers are so afraid of "unclean" appliances they should get their own microwave/tables/etc.  they can afford it with the money that upper management makes.
Ritually unclean has certainly become a hot button issue for me.  

Does anyone know how pork was determined to be ritually unclean?  One theory I heard a while back dwelt on the deliciousness of pork, suggesting that denial is a minor form of ascetism.  

Nonny
There is two reasons for a biblical prohibition against pork, and some other meats, and shell fish.

The first reason is trichinosis. (as JID said -- Sorry for the cross post)

The second reason is the classic way of keeping and feeding hogs / pigs with all forms of garbage and household waste, and parts of other animals, the so-called pigpen. Many deadly viruses are transmitted by touch.

Much of the Old Testament has to do with disease prevention, which is one of the reasons why Jews and Muslims must wash before going to worship.

Sparky::
So a biblical prohibition against eating raw or rare pork and against improper pig-raising procedures could have avoided all this hassle?  

Nonny
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#43 Nonny

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 01:49 PM

tennyson, on Aug 5 2004, 05:51 PM, said:

Another theory I read a while back dealt with the logistics of raising and feeding pigs in the Ancient Near East and how pigs were the least efficient source of protien available. I'll see if I can dig it up.
Yes, this is familiar.  I hope you find it.  I'd like to see it again.  

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#44 emsparks

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 02:05 PM

Nonny, on Aug 5 2004, 02:45 PM, said:

... So a biblical prohibition against eating raw or rare pork and against improper pig-raising procedures could have avoided all this hassle? 

Nonny
I don’t know what your saying here. In the Old Testament, the Bible to Jews, and a holly book to the Muslims there is a strict probation against keeping pigs / hogs and eating, or touching pork products period. There is no provisor about properly cooking the pork, as there is a scarcity of cooking fuel in the Holly land.

Sparky::

Edited by emsparks, 05 August 2004 - 02:07 PM.

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#45 Rhys

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 02:59 PM

A third reason for the Bibilical prohibition against pork:  To set God's Chosen People (it was an Old Testament) apart from others.

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#46 GiGi

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 03:48 PM

Here is some info from Barabara Walker's "Women's Dictionary of Sacred Objects"

Quote

Jewish authories sometimes pretend that the biblical taboo on eating pigs' flesh was a sensible precaution against trichinosis or other illness.  In fact, the biblical authors knew nothing about natural causes of disease and never associated any illness with eating "unclean" meats.  The pig taboo was copied by the early Hebrews from their neighbors in Syria and Egypt, where pigs were sacred to the Goddess and only eaten on ceremonial occasions.  The pig was "unclean" in the sense of "set apart" or  sacred; it was a primate Jewish totem.  The custom was widely known throughout the Middle East.  Lucian said the sacred pigs of Hierapolis were taboo in the usual dual manner: both "unclean" and "holy" at the same time.

The real meaning of "taboo" is "to set aside."  The reason can be because of something being unclean or sacred i.e. "untouchable."

Having lived with a pig for ten years, I don not eat pig flesh either.  For many reasons, not the least is the fact the pigs are intelligent enough to know what is going on at the slaughterhouse and many die of heart attacks from the stress before they get "offed"  That kind of adrenalin rush will taint the meat (at least in my opinion).  Plus I have never liked the taste.  Well, I liked the taste of bacon when I was a kid, but not how greasy it was.  I found out that there were bacon-flavored soy bits and liked those much better.

As to this case, well bringing it is one thing and bad enough, but using a communal microwave is another and far worse (just ask any Kosher household, you can't use a knife for the butter and then use it to cut meat.. and the list goes on!).  I lived in communal vegetarian households.  One time I used a roomate's plate to eat my fish on.  She was so upset she gave me the plate.  Wacky?  Maybe, but I should have had enough respect not to use her stuff for my fish, it was hers after all and I should not have put fish on it if it went against her principles, I had plenty of plates of my own.

It comes down to respect.  It isn't the end of the world if this woman can't eat pork where she works.  In fact lamb makes a good substitute and is served a lot in the Middle East.


*edited for spelling*

Edited by GiGi, 05 August 2004 - 03:50 PM.

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#47 Nonny

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 03:54 PM

emsparks, on Aug 5 2004, 07:03 PM, said:

Nonny, on Aug 5 2004, 02:45 PM, said:

... So a biblical prohibition against eating raw or rare pork and against improper pig-raising procedures could have avoided all this hassle? 

Nonny
I don’t know what your saying here. In the Old Testament, the Bible to Jews, and a holly book to the Muslims there is a strict probation against keeping pigs / hogs and eating, or touching pork products period. There is no provisor about properly cooking the pork, as there is a scarcity of cooking fuel in the Holly land.

Sparky::
I'm going beyond the taboo aspect to see what reason such a prohibition might have been given.  I have questioned every prohibition of the religion in which I was raised, so it would be odd if I didn't question those of other religions.  

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All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#48 GiGi

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 04:00 PM

^Nonny, see my post right above yours.
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#49 Anastashia

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 04:26 PM

gigi said:

I found out that there were bacon-flavored soy bits and liked those much better.

Check out Morningstar Farms (green boxes in the refrigerator case) if you have it in your area. They make a veggie protein bacon that looks like strips of bacon, cooks like bacon, and tastes like bacon. The cooked texture is very close to crisply cooked bacon which is the only way I like real bacon anyway, less than crispy is too oily for me. I'm not a vegatarian but I also use many vegitarian products and this is one of the best brands I've found. They also have a number of different burger products.

Ani

Edited by Anastashia, 05 August 2004 - 04:29 PM.

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#50 emsparks

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 06:36 PM

Nonny, on Aug 5 2004, 04:52 PM, said:

emsparks, on Aug 5 2004, 07:03 PM, said:

Nonny, on Aug 5 2004, 02:45 PM, said:

... So a biblical prohibition against eating raw or rare pork and against improper pig-raising procedures could have avoided all this hassle? 

Nonny
I don’t know what your saying here. In the Old Testament, the Bible to Jews, and a holly book to the Muslims there is a strict probation against keeping pigs / hogs and eating, or touching pork products period. There is no provisor about properly cooking the pork, as there is a scarcity of cooking fuel in the Holly land.

Sparky::
I'm going beyond the taboo aspect to see what reason such a prohibition might have been given.  I have questioned every prohibition of the religion in which I was raised, so it would be odd if I didn't question those of other religions.  

Nonny
With all due respect several of us gave you that; “Epidemiology.” Contrary to supposed learned opinions to the opposite, the ancient biblical peoples may not have understood germ theory; they did however understand cause and effect, and patterns of illness. Judaism like Islam has a very long history of medical advances, there is too much supporting concurrent practices, for this to be based on the devotions to a single Goddess that liked pork. The codification as a religious tenant came later, for the consumption, and motivation of the masses. Like I said much of the Old Testament especially the book of Exodus, has to do with the control of disease, in an army on the move, the exodus of the Jews from Egypt, to the Holy Land…

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#51 GiGi

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 07:05 PM

Sparky, pigs are sacred in many cultures, Celtic, Chinese and others.  Many customs are hold overs from older Matriarchal cultures before the Patriarchal cultures took over.  Pigs being sacred to the Goddess may not have been the only factor but could have been part of it.  Sort of like how Easter bunnies are part of Easter.  They have nothing to do with Christ and everything to do with the ancient Goddess fertility cultures.  And yet they still persist.

I believe the rules of Milk utensils and Meat utensils in the Kosher household had to do with making sure disease was not spread and yet rules persist in modern times.  The Kosher house I stayed at was one of the cleanest places I have ever visited and yet the milk forks and meat forks were kept in drawers in opposite sides of the kitchen.  It has nothing to do with disease any more and yet the rules are still there and in full force.

Edited by GiGi, 05 August 2004 - 07:19 PM.

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#52 QueenTiye

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 07:30 PM

Nonny, on Aug 5 2004, 01:20 PM, said:

I would draw a line here between people refusing treatment for themselves or their children and health care professionals refusing to provide treatment, between your religion affecting your own or your family's health and your religion affecting somebody else's health.  I would not agree with somebody refusing treatment, but I would love to see somebody refusing to treat run out of the profession.  I wish I had been more effective against the two nurses.  

Nonny
I agree.  Sorry if I didn't make that clear.  

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#53 QueenTiye

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 07:35 PM

Gigi - the fact that the pig was sacred in some other cultures does not make it therefore proof that the Ancient Hebrews borrowed that sense of sacredness.  The biblical injunction is pretty harsh - specifically calling the pig "unclean" if I'm not mistaken.  However, I read an interesting article recently on other unclean practices, and the very reverse of what you said may be in play - the fact that the pig was ritually sacred to other cultures may have been sufficient reason to make it ritually unclean to the Ancient Hebrews - that is, involving themselves with pigs may have been seen as involving themselves with idolatry.

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#54 GiGi

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 07:50 PM

^ That would be an interesting read.  But Barabara Walker was pointing out also the origins of why eating of pork was taboo to Middle Eatern people.  I know that in the Middle East, the oldest cultures were matriarchs.  I have a video on the "Forbidden Goddess" maybe this is a good time to watch it again!  ;)

We need to take care with translations since none of us are Arabic native speakers here (maybe some Hebrew native speakers on this board though).  So unless we can understand truly the correct meanings of words, we are all guessing. (I include myself here also as I am only going on what others have said).  In that regard I have been told that the word "taboo" does mean to "set aside."  I am not familiar enough with the old Testament to know if that word was used or if something that literally translates to "unclean" was used.  

All I know is that other than getting diseases (mostly from farm conditions) pigs are incredibly clean animals, much cleaner than a lot of humans and I have than experience up close and personal having lived with three human male children, a dog, a bunny and three birds!  My pig is the cleanst one of all of them!!
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#55 Shoshana

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 10:47 PM

The reason we don't eat pork is because in the Torah, there are rules set out about what a mammal has to have in order to be considered kosher - cloven hooves and it has to chew it's cud. And no - I don't know how those two requirements were chosen. They just were.

So pork isn't the only animal we don't eat, it's just the most commonly known part of keeping kosher. In addition, the Torah specifically says that the pig, camel, badger and rabbit aren't kosher because they don't fall under the 'allowed' rules.

And the animals we can eat have to be slaughtered a certain way, humanely.

There are a bunch of rules about fish and fowl too, but I won't go into that. I'll just add that we can't eat scavengers, including catfish.

And in addition to praying before meals, devout Jews (and Muslims too I think) are required to wash before eating.

For more info ..Kosher101

#56 GiGi

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 12:35 AM

Shoshana, on Aug 5 2004, 08:45 PM, said:

And the animals we can eat have to be slaughtered a certain way, humanely.

There are a bunch of rules about fish and fowl too, but I won't go into that.
Thanks for the clarification Shoshana.

A think the humane killing is most important.  The best chicken I ever ate was at the Kosher house I visited.  The meat tasted "clean." Perhaps because the chemicals released into the bloodstream under a stressful killiing changes the taste of the meat.

Very interesting link and here is a sentence that relates to the topic of the thread.

Quote

Kosher status can be transmitted from the food to the utensil or from the utensil to the food only in the presence of heat, thus if you are eating cold food in a non-kosher establishment, the condition of the plates is not an issue.

So, if this business was a Kosher one, the heating of the pig meat in the microwave would render it unfit to stay on the premises due to the fact that the heat transmits energy of the forbidden item.
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#57 Nonny

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 12:19 PM

GiGi, on Aug 6 2004, 12:48 AM, said:

^ That would be an interesting read.  But Barabara Walker was pointing out also the origins of why eating of pork was taboo to Middle Eatern people.  I know that in the Middle East, the oldest cultures were matriarchs.  I have a video on the "Forbidden Goddess" maybe this is a good time to watch it again!  ;)
Barbara Walker!  I must get my books unpacked and my bookshelves set up.  I have at least two of her excellent books, I want more.  Is Forbidden Goddess her video?    

Weren't the Canaanites a matriarchal, Goddess-worshipping people?  

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#58 Nonny

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 12:22 PM

Handmaiden07, on Aug 6 2004, 12:28 AM, said:

Nonny, on Aug 5 2004, 01:20 PM, said:

I would draw a line here between people refusing treatment for themselves or their children and health care professionals refusing to provide treatment, between your religion affecting your own or your family's health and your religion affecting somebody else's health.  I would not agree with somebody refusing treatment, but I would love to see somebody refusing to treat run out of the profession.  I wish I had been more effective against the two nurses. 

Nonny
I agree.  Sorry if I didn't make that clear.  

HM07
Sorry I didn't make it clear I was just expanding and commenting, and not disagreeing.  We're :cool:

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#59 GiGi

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 02:56 PM

Nonny, on Aug 6 2004, 10:17 AM, said:

Barbara Walker!  I must get my books unpacked and my bookshelves set up.  I have at least two of her excellent books, I want more.  Is Forbidden Goddess her video?    

Weren't the Canaanites a matriarchal, Goddess-worshipping people?  

Nonny
No, I don't think she did that video, it has been a very long time since I saw it.  It deals with the "shikina" or feminine aspect of the ancient Jewish god.  

I want to watch it again, I am not sure if it was that one that had the info about the Goddess cultures that  were along the Nile or if that was a different program.
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#60 Rhea

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 05:46 PM

Cardie, on Aug 4 2004, 11:16 AM, said:

The main issue is that the policy is not written down as a condition of employment.  The employers need to be clear about this.  Otherwise I see no heinous violation of rights.

If Ms. Morales' Catholicism required her to eat pork for lunch, then her rights would be violated.  If the employers required her to eat meat during Lent, that would be a problem. But none of those things is happening.

She's simply being asked not to engage in behavior that her employers are prohibiting.  It doesn't seem to me any different from a policy that forbids smoking in the lunchroom, or the consumption of alcohol while on duty.  It's only because the prohibition stems from the employers' religioius beliefs that this hassle is being made.

I can guarantee that if someone brought a BLT into the kitchen of a Kosher restaurant, they'd be fired, because they've contaminated the premises.  This is less clear cut,  but it's part of the same continuum.

Cardie
As usual, what Cardie said.  :blush:
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