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Kerry Strikes Under the Belt

Election 2004 Kerry Criticizes Bush 9/11 Reading to kids

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#41 G1223

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 11:00 PM

If this is a Non-Issue. Then why did Kerry bring it up? If not to attack Bush? There must be an answer .... Well where is the answer as to why he did it.

I mean unless backstabbing and smearing is the John Kerry way.
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#42 Delvo

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 11:15 PM

SubwayCait, on Aug 6 2004, 09:44 PM, said:

As to letting the machinery of government do it's job...... I'm absolutely sure that is exactly what occurred, there are protocols in place for a good reason.  But, to state that the president had nothing to do, is just a fallacy.
To state those two things is a contradiction, so one of them must be a fallacy. You're trying to get away with saying it was wrong and not sound like that's what you're saying.

Quote

He could have done any number of things, he did what he did, and that is fine.  But to claim there was NOTHING else he could do is just plain false.
The only things you've suggested that he could have done were actually nothing anyway. It would have been acting busy to appear busy while accomplishing nothing because there's nothing to accomplish. (I developed quite a distaste for that working jobs where I was told to clean an area that was already clean or restock supplies that were already stocked, just because a supervisor was unwilling to admit that sometimes there really is nothing useful to do. "Get on top of it" is even a phrase right from that kind of supervisor, trying to make busywork sound important and demanding and wind up the underlings to act really energized about it.) I'll change my mind about it when somebody produces something he could have done that would have had an actual point to it. But that hasn't been done yet.

* * * * *

BTW, the person who notified him of what was happening had an interview about it several months ago, and thus not in reaction to this Democrat attack. He said that he and the others who were there at the time talked about it briefly before he was sent to tell the President, and they all knew and agreed that nothing was needed from the President right that moment. So he made a point of constructing a message that left that choice open. If immediate action/orders from the President had been needed, he could have said "We need the President to address an emergency now". But he instead chose to make a point of only giving information, not calling for a response, which he knew, given the circumstances and the message's brevity and circumstances of delivery, implied that the President might as well handle it like he did, waiting for a minimally disruptive opening to leave.

#43 Cait

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 11:20 PM

G1223, on Aug 6 2004, 07:58 PM, said:

If this is a Non-Issue. Then why did Kerry bring it up? If not to attack Bush? There must be an answer .... Well where is the answer as to why he did it.

I mean unless backstabbing and smearing is the John Kerry way.
~shakes head again~ G, how would I know.  

The truth is there are people who posted here that wonder why he sat there.  Just as there are people who can give good explanations for it.  And there are people like me, for which it just isn't an issue.

But what I will tell you, is this...... This kind of response doesn't make for a good discussion G.  You ask questions that we can't answer.  You make claims you cannot verify.  You may FEEL you are correct, but you might not be. We're trying to bring some sanity to discussions here in OT.  This kind of hard party-line stuff just inflames the situation, basically because it does not stay on point.  It neither clarify's a point, nor adds to the information presented.  It only inflames.

Like I said, you've all been fighting amongst yourselves for so long, you can't talk to a Moderate.  Both sides are forcing those of us in the middle to exclude both arguments, because neither side speaks with any clarity or purpose any longer.  Those of us in the middle are looking for clear headedness in people, and candiates who can speak to the issues.  

You want to make an issue out of why Kerry mentioned it.  That too is a non-issue for me.  Politics in the US is always dirty regardless of how many promises get made.  To get sidetracked by why Kerry said it, or what his motives were, is missing the point.  His point is to get elected, and that will be the point of anything that comes out of the Bush campaign as wwll.  This is US politics.  Voters who can't decipher the campaign from the candidate aren't doing their homework.

You do your own candidate a disservice when you make every remark out of the Kerry camp an issue.  As do the Democrats who make issues out of everything that comes out of the Bush camp.  I see this all as a distraction from the real issues.

I'm not going to argue why Kerry did it, any more than I am going to try and give a reason for why Bush sat there...... These are non-issues.

~ Cait

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
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#44 G1223

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 11:21 PM

edited due to cross posting

Edited by G1223, 06 August 2004 - 11:26 PM.

If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

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#45 G1223

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 11:25 PM

Kerry is the one who made it an issue.

We get Kerry making his military record an issue when anyone differs from Kerry's spin they are attacked.

The DNC did send threatening letters to the media.

This Non Issue was brought up by Kerry. Yet he took longer with this non issue than Bush. Yet Kerry is the guy who knows what to do?
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#46 Cait

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 11:38 PM

Delvo, on Aug 6 2004, 08:13 PM, said:

To state those two things is a contradiction, so one of them must be a fallacy. You're trying to get away with saying it was wrong and not sound like that's what you're saying.
No, I am not.  

I am saying there were other things he could have done, because others things exist.  I gave an example because it is the one I'd like to think I'd do.  But I also said, I knew that no one could claim with any certainty what they in fact would do in that situation.  (and for the 3rd time) It is for this reason that it is a NON-ISSUE for me.  And whether you believe me or not, it will remain a non-issue.  However my interest, in why both sides seem to want to make it one, will still be piqued.  Absolutely fascinating, really it is.  

Anyway, I said that because up at the top of this discussion there were posters who claimed there was NOTHING he could do.  Nothing is like NEVER, it just isn't so.

Your take, that anything else would have been busy work, is your take and that is fine. Like I said, arguments on what he could have done or not done, don't interest me.  My issue was with the claim that NOTHING else could have been done.  Something no one seems to be able to grasp here.

Your claim that I am saying he was wrong, without saying it, is also false.  If I thought he was wrong, I'd have NO problem stating it whatsoever.  What I think, is that those of you that claim there was nothing he could have done, and those of you who claim he was wrong to sit there are ALL wrong.  

Like I said, those of you on the extremes of BOTH sides of the aisle, can't see what a moderate sees.  It's a shame, it really is.

~ Cait

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#47 QueenTiye

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 11:43 PM

In the sense that it has nothing to do with the job stats, or making us safer from terrorism, I agree. This is a nonissue.  But for a presidential candidate to pop something like that out of his mouth makes it an issue - and that's why everyone's talking about it.  It is upsetting for me to see such a non-issue gain ascendency in lieu of a real issue like who's going to make it possible for me to go to work again without walking past cops with heavy machinery? Or, who's going to make it possible for me not to have a broken heart when I see a young cop fresh on the beat looking slightly terrified as he patrols the PATH station leading to the World Trade Center site? Or, who precisely is going to make it ok for me to be able to feel safe about working down the street from the New York Stock Exchange? Sure, this issue is a non-issue.  But everyone knows that anything a presidential candidate says is an issue for discussion.  I really wish something of substance were being talked about.

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#48 G1223

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 11:49 PM

Bush has said his issues on what he has done and will do in the short term.

So far Mr. Kerry has "Differently". He will not speak his mind on any issues.Without reversing himself with the next group of people.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#49 G1223

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 11:49 PM

Bush has said his issues on what he has done and will do in the short term.

So far Mr. Kerry has "Differently". He will not speak his mind on any issues.Without reversing himself with the next group of people.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#50 Cait

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 11:51 PM

G1223, on Aug 6 2004, 08:23 PM, said:

Kerry is the one who made it an issue.

We get Kerry making his military record an issue when anyone differs from Kerry's spin they are attacked.

The DNC did send threatening letters to the media.

This Non Issue was brought up by Kerry. Yet he took longer with this non issue than Bush. Yet Kerry is the guy who knows what to do?
What is your point here?  I am at a loss, and I don't understand what these comments have to do with my comments.  

I mean no disrespect, but I am the one claiming that for ME it is a non-issue.  

I have no clue whether not it is a real issue to Bush or Kerry, and I don't care. I think it is unwise of Kerry to make it an issue, and unwise of Bush to respond to it.. (If in fact he did)  This kind of stuff is an emotional distraction to the real issues of the election.

I'm not interested in explanations of why Bush did or didn't do whatever it is he did or didn't do that fateful morning.  I'm not interested because I know how and why these issues are fabricated -- these men want to win.  I'm under no illusions about that, and you shouldn't be either.

~ Cait

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#51 GiGi

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Posted 07 August 2004 - 12:02 AM

*Standing Ovation*

Brava, Cait, Brava!!!


thank you for putting in words my exact feelings!
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#52 Ogami

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Posted 07 August 2004 - 07:49 AM

You know, I was offended when I watched Kerry make this comment on the local news. For years I've had the mental image in my head of that scene fixed. It was (to me) a tender scene. Bush receiving dire news while engaging in a read-along with schoolchildren. The reaction playing across the President's face was replayed endlessly in the days that followed. I felt a connection with my president in that moment fixed in time.

That's why Kerry's comment offended me. The political hack in me is actually delighted. Kerry should not be devoting ONE WORD to Bush's wartime record, or Bush's reactions on 9/11, or any other such stuff. Kerry is getting horrible advice from whomever is on his team, this can only hurt him and Edwards.

So go on dredging up the wounds of 9/11, Senator Kerry. Go on dredging up the divisions of this country over Vietnam, too. Two issues that can't help your campaign attract new voters. Leave Bush and Cheney to talk about your 19-year Senate record, and you can talk about Bush's 7 minutes till November 3rd for all I care. You'll have no one but yourself to blame when you lose. And I won't be offended over this any longer.

-Ogami

#53 Shalamar

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Posted 07 August 2004 - 10:16 AM

When I posted a reply earlier, I wasn't taking Kerry's remarks as an 'issue' / defending Bush... I was engageing in speculation.  I'm a GM, I play with scenearios, possibilities all the time.

However I will say that many of the things that Kerry has done seem to me to be very petty, mean spirited. To me a 'bigger' man wouldn't  do these 'belittleing' little snipes.

I'm not saying that either side of the campaigne is in the clear on this but I am hearing far more from Kerry than I am from Bush

It's like Hamils take that "if WMD's had been found in Iraq then Bush would have used it in his campaigne ads. He hasn't -therefor none have been found."

To me that is highly flawed reasoning.

:p  The thought of Bush prancing around waving a WMD and going "See, See, I told you so, Now re-elect me" just has me crossing my eyes.
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#54 Nonny

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Posted 08 August 2004 - 10:39 AM

Ogami, on Aug 6 2004, 05:35 PM, said:

Nonny wrote:

Say, isn't he that fine upstanding Catholic and former mayor of New York City who raised that fuss about the elephant dung portrait of the Virgin Mary without bothering to discern the cultural context of the painting or discover the fascinating uses of the fragrant substance, all the while trying to get the city to evict his wife and child from the official residence so he could install his mistress there

Not at all, Nonny. You are extremely mistaken.

Rudy was that "former mayor" who objected to taxpayer dollars subsidizing 'art' that attacked a particular religion. That's not the job of government.

-Ogami
No, I believe I am correct in saying that Giuliani, former mayor of New York City, raised a fuss, while mayor, about a portrait of the Virgin that expressed deep respect for the Virgin and did nothing even remotely related to an attack upon any religion of any kind, and that he did it while he was trying to force the city to evict his wife and child from the city's official residence so that he could live there at taxpayers' expense with his mistress.  

Do you think that keeping a roof over the mayor's mistress's head is the job of government?  Do you think that publicly flouting the commandments of your own religion isn't an attack on your own religion?  Do you think that the mayor had the right to publicly flout the commandments of his own religion at taxpayers' expense?  

Do you think that using a substance used to produce some of the most prized stationery in the world to honor a relgious icon is an attack upon the religion represented by the icon?  Our government is supposed to keep abreast (no pun intended, which is unusual for me) of protocol issues, and a city as cosmopolitan as NYC can be reasonably expected to stay informed, but the ball was really dropped on the elephant dung question.  Have you ever heard the expression, he thinks he sh*ts fresh fruit?  Well, apparently elephants do!  

Nonny
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#55 Ogami

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Posted 08 August 2004 - 10:47 AM

Nonny wrote:

No, I believe I am correct in saying that Giuliani, former mayor of New York City, raised a fuss, while mayor, about a portrait of the Virgin that expressed deep respect for the Virgin and did nothing even remotely related to an attack upon any religion of any kind, and that he did it while he was trying to force the city to evict his wife and child from the city's official residence so that he could live there at taxpayers' expense with his mistress.

As Mayor Guiliani objected to taxpayers subsidizing such work with hard-earned tax dollars. He never demanded anyone be censored, this artist was free to do whatever he wanted with his work. Just not to have the State of New York pay for it.

That little distinction is what gets lost in debates where the left screams "Censorship!" one time too many. Interestingly, the left's reaction on this was based on pre-9/11 Guiliani. Then he was only a convenient hate target because he was a Republican. He must be evil, they shrieked. It was after 9/11 that the left put their hate parade on hold regarding the former mayor.

-Ogami

#56 Nonny

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Posted 08 August 2004 - 10:55 AM

Delvo, on Aug 6 2004, 04:49 PM, said:

Nonny, on Aug 6 2004, 10:38 AM, said:

Rudolph Giuliani.  Say, isn't he that fine upstanding Catholic and former mayor of New York City who raised that fuss about the elephant dung portrait of the Virgin Mary without bothering to discern the cultural context of the painting or discover the fascinating uses of the fragrant substance, all the while trying to get the city to evict his wife and child from the official residence so he could install his mistress there?  Can you say "hypocrite"?
Can you look it up in a dictionary?
Yes I can, and I believe that when I do, I will find a definition that supports my belief that Giuliani's attack on an inoffensive painting to defend his religion while committing adultery makes him a hypocrite.  

American Heritage:

hypocrite,  A person given to hypocrisy.

hypocrisy, The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.

Well there you go.   Or perhaps I should say, quod erat demonstrandum.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#57 Nonny

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Posted 08 August 2004 - 10:58 AM

Ogami, on Aug 8 2004, 03:45 PM, said:

As Mayor Guiliani objected to taxpayers subsidizing such work with hard-earned tax dollars. He never demanded anyone be censored, this artist was free to do whatever he wanted with his work. Just not to have the State of New York pay for it.
But he didn't mind those hard-earned tax dollars supporting his adulterous lifestyle.  The courts did mind, however.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#58 Rhea

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Posted 08 August 2004 - 03:44 PM

Shalamar, on Aug 7 2004, 07:14 AM, said:

When I posted a reply earlier, I wasn't taking Kerry's remarks as an 'issue' / defending Bush... I was engageing in speculation.  I'm a GM, I play with scenearios, possibilities all the time.

However I will say that many of the things that Kerry has done seem to me to be very petty, mean spirited. To me a 'bigger' man wouldn't  do these 'belittleing' little snipes.

I'm not saying that either side of the campaigne is in the clear on this but I am hearing far more from Kerry than I am from Bush

It's like Hamils take that "if WMD's had been found in Iraq then Bush would have used it in his campaigne ads. He hasn't -therefor none have been found."

To me that is highly flawed reasoning.

:p  The thought of Bush prancing around waving a WMD and going "See, See, I told you so, Now re-elect me" just has me crossing my eyes.
Even though it's absolutely true? We all know if WMD's had been found in Iraq they would have been the topic of discussion and there would have been great rejoicing among the Bush administration, who were hoping for some justification for his flimsy excuse for evading Iraq. None have been found, and that's that.
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#59 Drew

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Posted 08 August 2004 - 06:09 PM

Rhea, on Aug 8 2004, 03:42 PM, said:

We all know if WMD's had been found in Iraq they would have been the topic of discussion and there would have been great rejoicing among the Bush administration, who were hoping for some justification for his flimsy excuse for evading Iraq.
1) WMD's were not the only reason we invaded Iraq and kicked out Saddam Hussein.

2) Yes, we have found and are still finding them.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#60 Ogami

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Posted 08 August 2004 - 09:06 PM

Bush went to war with the knowledge of the possibility that not finding WMD stockpiles would be used against him by crass Democrats.

<Generalization removed>

That's why he's a better man than Kerry will ever be, because Kerry would have calculated the political risks and drawbacks from doing the right thing, and would have chosen to do something else. Or nothing.

-Ogami

Edited by Appreciate, 10 August 2004 - 12:09 AM.




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