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Homosexuality-Why I Feel It's Biological

LGBT Homosexuality Biological

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#1 Vapor Trails

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 12:23 AM

I touched briefly upon this in Rhea's "God" thread, but I wanted to turn this into its own thread. Keep in mind-these are just my thoughts on the matter, after having pondered it for quite a while.

I'm of the belief that homosexuality is biological in origin.

Why?

Why would anyone willingly subject  himself/herself to a lifestyle that would result in becoming a pariah for the rest of their lives? Humans have a need to belong. Gays and lesbians certainly don't take pleasure in all the rampant forms of homophobia out there. Quite a few folks have been killed because of their sexual orientation as well.

Why would someone choose such a lifestyle, knowing the ramifications that await them?

Any thoughts appreciated.

:cool:
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#2 Josh

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 12:41 AM

While I appreciate your attempt, I've tried your argument in the past and people don't want to believe it. As such, this thread is just going to boil down to another in an infinite list of gay threads where people bluster and go off self-righteously (on both sides) until they've said the same things over and over again.

Kinda like one of those John Kerry threads. :p
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#3 Hambil

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 12:46 AM

I would suggest the stronger argument is that no pattern has been found to support homosexuality is learned. If a trait is affected by the environment, then patterns would be found.

Edited by Hambil, 27 August 2004 - 12:47 AM.


#4 Vapor Trails

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 12:58 AM

Josh, on Aug 27 2004, 12:39 AM, said:

While I appreciate your attempt, I've tried your argument in the past and people don't want to believe it. As such, this thread is just going to boil down to another in an infinite list of gay threads where people bluster and go off self-righteously (on both sides) until they've said the same things over and over again.

Kinda like one of those John Kerry threads. :p
Sadly, you're probably right.  :pout:

It's just that this is so freaking obvious. But of course, the key is a person WANTING to see it.  :sarcasm:

People see what they want to see.  

:(
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#5 Vapor Trails

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 01:03 AM

Hambil, on Aug 27 2004, 12:44 AM, said:

I would suggest the stronger argument is that no pattern has been found to support homosexuality is learned. If a trait is affected by the environment, then patterns would be found.
Why would my argument be "weaker"? Does anyone take pleasure in being humilated, beaten, treated as less than human, or killed?

Frankly, I can't see how any argument can be stronger than mine-and I'm not trying to be egotistical here. I'm just speaking, in terms of plain common sense.  Someone taking a bat to your skull for being homosexual is pretty damn extreme-and unless the victim is mentally unbalanced, I can't see them WANTING that.

Is there REALLY a better example than that?

:Oo:
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#6 Hambil

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 01:42 AM

Digital Man, on Aug 26 2004, 11:01 PM, said:

Why would my argument be "weaker"? Does anyone take pleasure in being humilated, beaten, treated as less than human, or killed?
It's an emotional argument, was my only point. Not necessarily less valid, but perhaps less scientific. Just my 2 cents. Arguments based on psychology are usually harder to prove. I'm in no way arguing with you. I believe the same as you do. :)

#7 tennyson

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 01:45 AM

I generally sterr clear of such topics but I'd like to make a comment about the larger human interaction with homosexuality, not all cultures support the samekind of gender construction or define homosexuality as a bad thing. Take Zack's post of a few months back about Thailand or the inbetween gender of the Zuni I think it was of the American Southwest or Classic Greece. It hasn't simply been a case of unremitting hatred across all time and place. Any strictly biological theory would have to at least have some bearing on all those other varied experiences as well if it could be concieved of as having universal validity. As for anything else, I don't know enough to say anything meaningful.
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#8 Godeskian

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 01:46 AM

Digital Man, on Aug 27 2004, 06:21 AM, said:

Why would anyone willingly subject  himself/herself to a lifestyle that would result in becoming a pariah for the rest of their lives? Humans have a need to belong. Gays and lesbians certainly don't take pleasure in all the rampant forms of homophobia out there. Quite a few folks have been killed because of their sexual orientation as well.
The paraiah effect is solely the result of an intolerant society. If society was more tolerant towards gays (such as in the netherlands, where being openly gay does not make you a pariah) then it wouldn't be an issue

don't assume American cultural feelings twoards homosexuality are universal

Edited by Cyberhippie, 27 August 2004 - 01:47 AM.

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#9 Hambil

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 01:51 AM

tennyson, on Aug 26 2004, 11:43 PM, said:

Any strictly biological theory would have to at least have some bearing on all those other varied experiences as well if it could be concieved of as having universal validity.
I believe that homosexuality and hetrosexuality are not two sides of the same coin. It's not an either or 'switch' or gene in humanity. I think of it as two seperate dimmer switches that can be anywhere from off, to fully on. I think that nature sets them in a way for most men a woman so that procreation occurs - which is probably 'natures' intent. But nature doesn't always get the mix correct for that intent.

This accounts for:

low male attraction & low female attraction
high male attraction & low female attraction
low male attraction & high female attraction
high male attraction & high female attraction

And many other 'settings' inbetween.

Edited by Hambil, 27 August 2004 - 01:52 AM.


#10 Delvo

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 06:12 AM

1. Eliminating the possibility of choice does not eliminate the possibility of unchosen psychological causes rather than biological.

2. The fact that other cultures either tolerate it openly or are intolerant of it means that they all have some reaction to it... which means it exists everywhere... which indicates to me that it's built in to the species.

3. Some people do choose behaviors that get them scorn from other people. Read the episode descriptions for VH1's "Totally Obsessed" and you'll see people who do things like dress up & act like Peter Pan all day of every day, surgically alter themselves to the point of having an induced speech impedement in order to appear more like a tiger, or try to give everything in their lives such a Miami Vice theme that the actor who played DJ's sidekick seemed to be more of a guest of honor at the wedding than the (other) best man or the bride.

Edited by Delvo, 27 August 2004 - 07:51 AM.


#11 Ogami

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 06:59 AM

Digital Man wrote:

Why would someone choose such a lifestyle, knowing the ramifications that await them? Any thoughts appreciated.

The biggest hole in that theory is that prisons are filled with same-sex sex, and no one believes those felons were born that way.

Not making any comment, but prisons prove that environment alone can cause that.

-Ogami

#12 Delvo

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 07:51 AM

Not true, Ogami.

#13 Ogami

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 08:08 AM

So all those men having sex in prison were born that way?

I'm not making any comment here, I don't care what someone's lifestyle choice is.

But the fact is that environment alone can cause that behavior, my proof is in every prison in existence.

And not just the male prisons, either.

-Ogami

#14 emsparks

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 09:26 AM

Ogami, on Aug 27 2004, 09:06 AM, said:

So all those men having sex in prison were born that way?

I'm not making any comment here, I don't care what someone's lifestyle choice is.

But the fact is that environment alone can cause that behavior, my proof is in every prison in existence.

And not just the male prisons, either.

-Ogami
Prisons are predatory places with the stronger more violent inmates praying on the rest of the prison population. Places where if youíre not violent yourself, and you donít cooperate sexually, youíll find yourself dead of a shiv shoved up into your kidneys in the shower. The life style in a prison is no place where you can make a supposition about free will. AND Yes the violent homosexual or bisexual inmates where born that way.

AND no the guards are not in control all the time.

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#15 emsparks

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 09:34 AM

Digital Man, on Aug 27 2004, 02:01 AM, said:

Hambil, on Aug 27 2004, 12:44 AM, said:

I would suggest the stronger argument is that no pattern has been found to support homosexuality is learned. If a trait is affected by the environment, then patterns would be found.
Why would my argument be "weaker"? Does anyone take pleasure in being humilated, beaten, treated as less than human, or killed?

Frankly, I can't see how any argument can be stronger than mine-and I'm not trying to be egotistical here. I'm just speaking, in terms of plain common sense.  Someone taking a bat to your skull for being homosexual is pretty damn extreme-and unless the victim is mentally unbalanced, I can't see them WANTING that.

Is there REALLY a better example than that?

:Oo:
The much stronger argument is that homosexuality is found in the same proportions in, domestic animals and, livestock, as it appears in human beings. So tell me when dose your average horse decide itís going to be gay.

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#16 Hambil

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 09:45 AM

emsparks, on Aug 27 2004, 07:32 AM, said:

The much stronger argument is that homosexuality is found in the same proportions in, domestic animals and, livestock, as it appears in human beings. So tell me when dose your average horse decide itís going to be gay.
I agree that is a good argument, but many in the gay community and those supporting it are cautious of a comparison to animals :) Especially since the major opponents donít believe man is an animal.

#17 emsparks

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 10:20 AM

Hambil, on Aug 27 2004, 10:43 AM, said:

emsparks, on Aug 27 2004, 07:32 AM, said:

The much stronger argument is that homosexuality is found in the same proportions in, domestic animals and, livestock, as it appears in human beings. So tell me when dose your average horse decide itís going to be gay.
I agree that is a good argument, but many in the gay community and those supporting it are cautious of a comparison to animals :) Especially since the major opponents donít believe man is an animal.
If man was not an animal then the drugs that where first tested on animals, should not work on mankind.

Not only are those that think man is not an animal misinformed, they denigrate mankindís achievements, particularly those in the so-called humanities.

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#18 Mr.Calgary

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 10:36 AM

Delvo, on Aug 27 2004, 04:10 AM, said:

3. Some people do choose behaviors that get them scorn from other people. Read the episode descriptions for VH1's "Totally Obsessed" and you'll see people who do things like dress up & act like Peter Pan all day of every day, surgically alter themselves to the point of having an induced speech impedement in order to appear more like a tiger, or try to give everything in their lives such a Miami Vice theme that the actor who played DJ's sidekick seemed to be more of a guest of honor at the wedding than the (other) best man or the bride.
Exactly, it's so bloody obvious.

Martyr complex etc. etc.  

Can I presume the thread starter wasn't around for the punk era?

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#19 sierraleone

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 11:18 AM

Digital Man

Quote

I'm of the belief that homosexuality is biological in origin.

Why?

Why would anyone willingly subject himself/herself to a lifestyle that would result in becoming a pariah for the rest of their lives? Humans have a need to belong. Gays and lesbians certainly don't take pleasure in all the rampant forms of homophobia out there. Quite a few folks have been killed because of their sexual orientation as well.

First of all, whether its biological or phsychological (sp??) doesn't mean its easier to resist or feel driven towards it IMO.

People who were abused as kids, and abuse others when they grow up probably feel driven, or a need to do that (and no, I'm not saying all that are abused as kids grow up to abuse, or trying to compare homosexuality w/ child abuse, if you have read any Gay rights thread before w/ responses by me, you'd know I'm for gays rights, gay marriage/etc ;) :) )

Second of all, it being something other than genetic does not make it a bad thing in my opinion (if it was learned, I figure some its biological soley, some its completely phsyological, and some both, to me it doesn't matter which, they should still have their rights).

Thirdly, some people do choose things they know won't be popular w/ their other people, presumably on purpose sometimes. Not neccessarily gays, but it isn't the best arguement.

Hambil's arguements were easier to back up w/ harder facts, though some people just won't be convinced by anything, or will try to find a way around it. For example, when people bring up. For example, bringing up other animals in the animal kingdom also displaying homosexual acts, to people who believe it is wrong it just doesn't matter. If its wrong, so what if its programed into us. Some people have a tendency towards violence, does that mean they shouldn't try to control it, I've heard argued, as if the two are comparable. To some, it doesn't matter the facts, if its wrong, its a lose/lost situation. Its learned, its something they can control or get help for, if its genetic and they can't help but feel that way they can still control their actions and who says we should all follow our genetic leanings? Priest do the celebacy thing, and how often have people argue, to want sex is hardwired into us.

To be fair, I'm sure they feel the same way about our arguments. If its genetic, they can't control themselves, if its psychological most of us don't care, they aren't harming anyone, its not wrong, and some consider phsyocially driven preferences as hard to beat biologically driven ones (both of which can be overriden by the other in some cases). And, again, if biological, they shouldn't be forced to ignorn it, like other genetically driven needs and wants, again, its not wrong.

So both of us hate eachother's arguements because they go in circle's each using their own beliefs, really, about the moralty of homosexual acts, to validate their position on each point.

Heres an article I've read recently that I like, about the so-called history of marriage:

http://www.counterpu...pp12132003.html

Edited by sierraleone, 27 August 2004 - 11:20 AM.

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#20 StarDust

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Posted 27 August 2004 - 11:28 AM

Of course it's biological.  Homosexuality occurs in other animals besides humans.  It's not a 'life-style' choice by dogs and such.

Science has also shown that the percentage of homosexuals in a given species increases as that species overpopulates.  You might say it's a built in mechanism by Mother Nature to help with overpopulation.  Of course it doesn't help humans much with test tubes, surrogates, and people pretending they are hetero when they are not, ending up with a wife and kids.

And there is quite a bit of evidence that a certain region in homosexual brains is different than hetero brains.  That equates to 4 types, heter female, homo female, hetero male, homo male.  It appears that this may be caused by a female fetus getting to much testosterone in utero, and a male fetus not getting enough.  This could also explain why in the case of some identical twins, one is gay and one is straight.  It's a environmental thing.  It's common for one twin to take more than it's share of the available nutrients, and the other to not get enough while in utero.  Usually they even out by a few months after birth, but if it was something that affected development of the brain it oculd cause a permanent change.  And again increased population could cause environmental stress that would cause a pregnant woman's testosterone level to increase or decrease, as well as a whole host of other things.

All this is old news by several years.  But of course there are elements who prefer to keep it squashed or to discredit it (like evolution).



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