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Texas Official Apologizes

Texas Election 2004 Ben Barnes Austin Kerry Rally

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#21 prolog

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 11:44 AM

See the bias inherent in the media!  Help help, I'm being repressed!

Silliness aside, you did more than question the rest of the statement:

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Why should we believe that other parts of the same statement are any more true than the part which is shown to be a lie?

To me, this says, "Screw the rest of what he said.  He lied, and therefore the rest of his statement is a lie, regardless of whether or not it depends on what was false."  To me, that's utterly fallacious.

#22 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 11:51 AM

Just to note, that this is getting into the very thing I didn't want it to be about when I posted it. Here's what I'm interested in discussing.

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But when I saw this item, it reminded me how many families are living with the consequences of their decisions in that war even yet.

What lesson can be learned from all this, I'm not exactly sure of. I'd like for my country not to have to repeat it if possible, though, so I'm thinking about it a lot tonight.

Perhaps about how government has a duty to even the playing field rather than extend the advantages of an already privileged class further?

Talking about whether the specifics of including Bush was a lie or not got us off track from that discussion. I'd like to take it back there, please.

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#23 Drew

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 01:07 PM

Fair enough. Just wanted to point out that the very example you use as a basis for your discussion has a demonstrable falsehood in it.
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#24 Cardie

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 03:42 PM

I suppose I'm a cynic, but I think that the rich and the powerful will always find ways to avoid painful obligations.  So I'd rather have a volunteer military instead of going through the motions of believing that a draft spreads out the responsibility of fighting and dying for out country, when that has never been the case.

The only solution is to reward people who do these necessary and dangerous tasks with better pay, benefits, and equipment.  That doesn't seem to happen very often either, probably because, once again, these folks aren't from well connected families.  But it's a more positive goal to strive for than forcing generations of young men to become draft dodgers and hypocrites, because that's what happened before and would happen now.

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#25 Kevin Street

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 05:17 PM

Hmm, I don't know if it's a lie. But Drew makes a good point with his date comparisons. Maybe this is why the media isn't covering this story? Oh well...

Ro-Astarte said:

I don't want this election to be about a war fought over 30 yrs ago. I haven't even been following all the SBV stuff, although I've read enough refutation to think the accusations they make are suspect even if they were material.

But when I saw this item, it reminded me how many families are living with the consequences of their decisions in that war even yet.

What lesson can be learned from all this, I'm not exactly sure of. I'd like for my country not to have to repeat it if possible, though, so I'm thinking about it a lot tonight.

Perhaps about how government has a duty to even the playing field rather than extend the advantages of an already privileged class further?

What are your thoughts?

I'm not sure that cronyism or privilege buying by the elite can ever be totally eliminated. When you get something like a war it inspires strong reactions in everyone, and rich parents will try to save their sons just as much as poor ones. The only difference being that the rich people actually have a chance of succeeding. It's the sort of thing that goes on in every war, and I think all that can be done is to be aware of the problem, and catch it if and when it occurs.

Having said that though, I think that the nature of modern military conflicts tends to reduce cronyism somewhat. The modern soldier, sailor, or airman has to deal with so much technology and so many complicated weapons systems that you really can't do the job properly unless you've been well trained. So in a way, technology has been making the military more of a meritocracy all along. But that still can't elminate some forms of cronyism like installing favored sons in soft billets far from the front lines. That will always be with us.

#26 Mr.Calgary

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 05:28 PM

Hmmm, two thoughts to add.

1. If his memory is good enough to remember that G.W. Bush was one of the many kids who benefited, it should be good enough to remember what job he had at the time.

2.  Is it fair to conclude he, himself benefited nicely from helping all these rich families.  A lot of his success over the last 36 years is probably built on that foundation. (that he -now- regrets)
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#27 Bad Wolf

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 06:03 PM

I gotta say it's hard to attribute a misstatement about whether he was in office at the time to a memory lapse...especially when he's trying to use the incident in question to further a political agenda.

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#28 Bouree57

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 07:05 PM

Ro-Astarte, on Aug 30 2004, 08:58 PM, said:

Perhaps about how government has a duty to even the playing field rather than extend the advantages of an already privileged class further?
How is that possible when IMO the privileged usually is the government or the son of the government?

It's not like this is the only area where elitism is a problem. This happens in every day life as well. A friend of mine was just layed off so the son of the some high up muckity muck could have a white collar job even though he is unqualified.

Mr.Calgary, on Posted on Aug 31 2004, 05:26 PM, said:

Hmmm, two thoughts to add.

1. If his memory is good enough to remember that G.W. Bush was one of the many kids who benefited, it should be good enough to remember what job he had at the time.

2. Is it fair to conclude he, himself benefited nicely from helping all these rich families. A lot of his success over the last 36 years is probably built on that foundation. (that he -now- regrets)

I'll raise you to 3.

3. Why has he suddenly remembered it now? Where had he been for the last year (at least)? This has been a hot topic on Bush for way too long to be conviently remembered now in the big middle of the RNC.

Edited by Bouree57, 01 September 2004 - 12:58 AM.

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