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Speaking of flip-flops

Politics 2004 Georgia

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#1 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 30 August 2004 - 10:42 PM

Again, from Salon

Quote

On Wednesday night, Miller will deliver a prime-time address to the full convention, just after Vice President Dick Cheney. In 1992, as governor of Georgia, Miller gave the keynote speech introducing Bill Clinton, then governor of Arkansas, as the Democratic presidential nominee.

"For 12 dark years, the Republicans have dealt in cynicism and skepticism," Miller said then. "They've mastered the art of division and diversion, and they have robbed us of our hope." Of the then-incumbent president, George H.W. Bush, Miller said, "our commander in chief talks like Dirty Harry, but acts like B*rn*y Fife."

Today, of that president's son, Miller says: "No one else can lead this country."

I wonder why he doesn't just change affiliations. Repubs are the stronger party in GA at the moment, from what I've heard.

Politics, it don't make no sense.

:crazy: Ro

#2 Caretaker

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Posted 30 August 2004 - 11:34 PM

Miller and Schwarzenegger.  I mean, for people on Miller, it should be, "If it smells like a Republican, and looks like a Republican, and tastes like a Republican and sounds like a Republican, it must be a Republican."  And for Arnold, the opposite is true.  "If it smells like a Democrat, and looks like a Democrat, and tastes like a Democrat and sounds like a Democrat..."

But some people just seem to call themselves one thing, but in reality act like another thing.

Edited by Caretaker, 30 August 2004 - 11:34 PM.


#3 Ogami

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 07:39 AM

Why is John McCain a "Maverick", a hero to the partisan media, the liberal left, when he votes against his party leadership?

Yet Zell Miller is a turncoat, an evildoer, for voting his conscience, as many conservative Democrats used to do?

The Democrat party is the party of the fringe left, nothing proves that more than this thread. The Democrat party used to be half conservative Democrats, people like Joe Lieberman and Zell Miller. Now they are on the outs, Michael Moore and Martin Sheen better represent that party now.

The Democrats need more people like Zell Miller, and they are world-class fools for making a pariah out of him, simply because he doesn't march like a zombie behind Terry McAuliffe's party line.

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#4 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 08:16 AM

Ogami, I'm not talking here about breaking with party leadership on a vote in Congress.

I'm talking about a politician speaking at the rival parties CONVENTION  in support of the party he himself blamed for  "division and diversion".

Do you really think, for example, if Senator McCain had taken the VP nomination with Senator Kerry, that he would not have been pilloried by every Republican talking head Karl Rove could mobilize?

Ro

#5 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 08:18 AM

Caretaker, on Aug 30 2004, 11:32 PM, said:

Miller and Schwarzenegger.  I mean, for people on Miller, it should be, "If it smells like a Republican, and looks like a Republican, and tastes like a Republican and sounds like a Republican, it must be a Republican."  And for Arnold, the opposite is true.  "If it smells like a Democrat, and looks like a Democrat, and tastes like a Democrat and sounds like a Democrat..."

But some people just seem to call themselves one thing, but in reality act like another thing.
I'm not really keeping up with Calif politics. What about  Gov Schwarzenegger make you think he's a Democrat in a Republican suit?

Ro

#6 Ogami

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 02:11 PM

Ro-Astarte, it's funny I know more about a Democrat than anyone else. Zell Miller has a lot more on his plate than simply addressing a convention, he is busy selling a book, here it is at amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.co...4037399-4965714

A National Party No More: The Conscience of a Conservative Democrat

Quote

With the growl of the Marine sergeant he was, Senator Zell Miller leaves no doubt that he believes his own Democratic Party is badly out of step with most of the country and needs to shape up or ship out.

As part of a stinging critique of the Democratic Party, Miller outlines key positions on important issues that can again make the party relevant for the entire nation. From tax cuts to welfare, gun control to the environment, the arts to education, immigration to terrorism, Miller identifies values that make sense to a growing majority of Americans.

Miller’s candid analysis of the campaigns of Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton further underscores his conclusion that the Democratic Party can no longer field a serious presidential challenge.

Many party loyalists will not like what Senator Miller writes; yet his credentials are beyond question, for few Democrats have worked longer or stronger for the party and its candidates. Zell Miller has served in an elective office in each of the last six decades. When he left office as governor after two terms, he had an 85 percent approval rating, prompting the Washington Post to call him the most popular governor in the country. After getting to Washington, he became President Bush’s biggest Democratic supporter, but steadfastly refused to switch parties.

A National Party No More is a firsthand account from the enigmatic senator who has confounded his Democratic colleagues. Driven by conscience and common sense, Senator Miller names the self-destructive direction of his party and stubbornly pulls the Democratic family toward reform.

Edited by Ogami, 31 August 2004 - 02:11 PM.


#7 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 02:15 PM

Which doesn't address why he's speaking at the Republican convention when he accused them of the politics of "division and diversion".  What made him change his mind about Republicans but not be willing to switch party allegiances?

I'm perfectly willing to state there's stuff I don't know, Ogami, and you didn't address my comparison to John McCain if he had joined the Kerry ticket as at one time it was rumored he was asked to.  Do you know that, too?

I can make a guess. Anybody remember Jim Jeffords?

Ro

Edited by Ro-Astarte, 31 August 2004 - 02:18 PM.


#8 Drew

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 02:29 PM

Perhaps you're forgetting that after Kerry picked John Edwards, the Republicans made much hay out of the fact that McCain--a Republican--was his first choice. Rather than blast McCain for being favored by Kerry, they used it to demonstrate how "Republican" Kerry wanted to be. Vive la difference.  :cool:
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#9 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 03:21 PM

Nope, not forgetting it, it's just not germane to this discussion.

Zell Miller, Democrat. Republican Convention.   He called them the "Dark Side" of American politics.  If he still believes that (note how I'm not talking about how he feels about his own party of allegiance?) why speak at the convention.  If he doesn't, why not switch parties?

If John McCain had  said yes, that would be a comparison, but it's alt history at this point.

A big scandal with the Repubs over Jim Jeffords changing to an Independent (again, not, not Democrat) affiliation was that he had run as a Repub, and owed it to his constituents to keep his party alignment what it was when they elected him.  Frankly, I didn't agree then,  but it does seem inconsistent to welcome a turncoat. (Yes, I know, it's all just politics. Not a good enough excuse imo.)

Ro

#10 Drew

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 03:28 PM

Zell Miller's been the way he's been for quite awhile. He was one of the few Democrats who was critical of Bill Clinton during the Monica Lewinsky junk. Has he been reelected since then or is he up for reelection this year? I guess the people will decide if they still want him. Ultimately, it's their choice.

There are a lot of what's being called "9/11 Democrats," who think that we need to stick with President Bush because of the current situation.

And the controversy over Jeffords was that his switch lost Republicans the majority. It wasn't about him so much as about who was going to continue to control one house of Congress.
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#11 GoldenCoal

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 04:24 PM

Drew, on Aug 31 2004, 01:27 PM, said:

Perhaps you're forgetting that after Kerry picked John Edwards, the Republicans made much hay out of the fact that McCain--a Republican--was his first choice. Rather than blast McCain for being favored by Kerry, they used it to demonstrate how "Republican" Kerry wanted to be. Vive la difference.  :cool:
    Wait, I'm confused, is Kerry Liberal, a flip-flopper, or a Republican wanna-ba? :wacko: and if Kerry did want to be "Republican" wouldn't that mean that he is trying to get in line with what Zell Miller is saying? Wouldn't that mean that Zell Miller wouldn't need to talk to the convention? Or am I just confusing what you are saying and am crazy?  :blink:

#12 G1223

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 07:34 PM

Well Sen. Byah of Indiana made the same comments about the party needing to pull towards the center and start leaving the fringe to itself. He said that the party must embrace local issues.

So Miller is not alone in his opinion that the party is moving too far to the left.
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#13 Drew

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 07:51 PM

GoldenCoal, on Aug 31 2004, 04:22 PM, said:

Wait, I'm confused, is Kerry Liberal, a flip-flopper, or a Republican wanna-ba? :wacko:
He's all of that and more! He's a floor wax! He's a dessert topping! He's two mints in one!  :cool:
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#14 Meepski

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 08:04 PM

Ro, I agree that it is a little odd that he doesn't change parties if he feels more in line with the Republicans than the Democrats.  Maybe the Dems have a better softball team.

His switch from being strongly against the Republican party to strongly for it is a good example of why the flip-flop label that has been applied to Kerry does not say anything substantive about either his character or his record.  Times change, and people change with them, or at least those who are willing to do.  And I would not want someone to lead the country who wasn't willing to change and grow with the times.

The flip-flop label is a political trick that gets in the way of a real look at complicated issues. I find it pretty insulting to my intelligence when either side does these tricks.

Edited by Meepski, 31 August 2004 - 08:07 PM.

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#15 GoldenCoal

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 08:44 PM

Drew, on Aug 31 2004, 06:49 PM, said:

He's all of that and more! He's a floor wax! He's a dessert topping! He's two mints in one!  :cool:
  Mmmmmmm......... a dessert topping that's two mints in one....... :inlove:

Still, I've seen some recent ads that try to show that Kerry has a strong line in some sorts of things (like raising taxes) does that mean that they're done with the flip-flopping label and have decided to put him purely as a liberal? I never could figure out which way the Republicans were trying to paint Kerry.



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