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#21 G1223

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 11:05 AM

The report is going to segmented if I just do not leave it these mess of notes.

I did get to meet EnTrance and his lovely wife Bossysister. They send their best and if time permits they might be able to being much more active with us. (Darn that City of Heroes)
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#22 KRAD

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 05:36 PM

It isn't much of a WorldCon if it's only in the U.S. And one of the best WorldCons I've ever been to was the one in Melbourne in 1999. There are fans down there, too, you know, and they're left out of it most of the time. And there's a huge Japanese SF community (as evidenced by the Seiun Awards given out at the top of the Hugo ceremony).

Also, contrary to the assertion that the midwest is "ignored," there have been more WorldCons in Chicago than in any other city, and the likelihood that they will lose the 2008 bid is vanishingly small. (Their main competition is Denver.)

As for Kansas City, they're up against Montreal, which I'd say is a toss-up. Personally, I'd rather go to Montreal, but that's because I love Montreal. :)
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#23 parisindy

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 05:47 PM

i'm going to montreal in like 8 hours  :crazy:

i hope montreal gets it
then i might have a faint chance of going

Edited by parisindy, 06 September 2004 - 08:21 PM.

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#24 DWF

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 07:52 PM

For the record, Columbus has entered the voting for the 2008 and 2009 WorldCon bids, so all is not lost for the midwest. :cool:
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#25 Raeven

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 04:21 AM

G1223, on Sep 6 2004, 05:23 AM, said:

Who afford to travel to Japan? or Austrilia? or England?
G :) think about the other way....how many of us from other countries can afford to travel to the US :D

You are coming to Glasgow aren't you?


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#26 MegL

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 05:52 AM

KRAD, on Sep 6 2004, 05:36 PM, said:

It isn't much of a WorldCon if it's only in the U.S. And one of the best WorldCons I've ever been to was the one in Melbourne in 1999. There are fans down there, too, you know, and they're left out of it most of the time. And there's a huge Japanese SF community (as evidenced by the Seiun Awards given out at the top of the Hugo ceremony).
Well I'm happy for Japan - they've been bidding to get the con ever since I can remember - and that's a loooonnng time  :lol: .

Quote

Also, contrary to the assertion that the midwest is "ignored," there have been more WorldCons in Chicago than in any other city, and the likelihood that they will lose the 2008 bid is vanishingly small. (Their main competition is Denver.)
First, the problem IMO is that World Con bidders seem to think everything west of the Mississippi and East of the Rockies is in the midwest. With all the Rust Belt flight in the last 15 years, I'd like to know why we don't see many SW/S/SE bids?

A second problem from my perspective is that Chicago isn't really all that central to fans who live east of it, or west of the Rockies (I'm using the Rockies because they really do seem to be a dividing line for fans travelling, whether or not they really should be).  Denver and Kansas City are closer, but they haven't won a bid in years (over 30 years in KC's case). I have no idea if Dallas, Houston, OKC, Tulsa, Santa Fe, or Albuquerque has ever bid and/or won but all of those cities are as closer, or closer, to where I'm at than Chicago  :(.

Quote

As for Kansas City, they're up against Montreal, which I'd say is a toss-up. Personally, I'd rather go to Montreal, but that's because I love Montreal. :)
It be nice if KC would get it (it's changed in 30 years) but knowing how it goes with World Con bidding, I doubt it will :dontgetit:.

#27 KRAD

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 09:06 AM

A lot of it depends on how together the bidders are. A New York-area WorldCon would get tons of people, just by virtue of the population density and the sheer volume of SF pros in the vicinity -- but New York-area fandom cannot get their fecal matter together to organize a coherent bid. Also, running a WorldCon is a huge, complex endeavor, and one reason why larger cities in the U.S. often put together better bids than smaller ones is because they have more local fans who are willing and able to do the phenomenal amount of volunteer work necessary.

BTW, Chicago also has the advantage of being an airline hub -- for a lot of people, it's actually easier to get there, even if it isn't closer, because there are more direct flights there.
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#28 G1223

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 09:41 PM

Also Keith another killer is the Hotels. They have a LOT of hidden fees.
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#29 Kevin Standlee

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 11:33 PM

My first attempt to reply to this failed when the server appeared to crash.

MegL said:

First, the problem IMO is that World Con bidders seem to think everything west of the Mississippi and East of the Rockies is in the midwest.
That's not how I'd define it.  What states would you consider to be "Midwest?"

MegL said:

With all the Rust Belt flight in the last 15 years, I'd like to know why we don't see many SW/S/SE bids?
Could you define what you mean by "SW," "S," and "SE?"  What states?  Is Florida (site of 1992 Worldcon in Orlando) part of any of these areas?  How about Texas (site of 1997 Worldcon in San Antonio)?

Remember that, even under the best of circumstances, most regions won't see more than one Worldcon per decade at the most.  (California is two separate regions IMO; I'd lump the northern half of the state with the entire Pacific Northwest, and the southern half with Arizona and the rest of the Southwest).

A Worldcon in the southeastern USA, notably Atlanta, is off the table as long as Dragon*Con is there.  D*C sucks up all other convention life around it.  Note that the Charlotte NASFiC bid probably lost because a bunch of their bidcom went to D*C instead of Torcon 3, where the election was, and the vote was so close that those votes could have swung the election to Charlotte; instead, NASFiC will be in Seattle (technically SeaTac) next year.  (Not that I'm complaining; I'm FGOH of CascadiaCon next year.)

MegL said:

A second problem from my perspective is that Chicago isn't really all that central to fans who live east of it, or west of the Rockies (I'm using the Rockies because they really do seem to be a dividing line for fans travelling, whether or not they really should be).  Denver and Kansas City are closer, but they haven't won a bid in years (over 30 years in KC's case). I have no idea if Dallas, Houston, OKC, Tulsa, Santa Fe, or Albuquerque has ever bid and/or won but all of those cities are as closer, or closer, to where I'm at than Chicago  :(.
There was a Dallas bid rumored for a while, but they faded away.  I don't recall any credible bids from one of the other places you mention, although as I mentioned above, San Antonio hosted the con in 1997.

Remember that bids aren't usually started by people far away who pick out a city and say "let's hold it there."  Most bids are started by people in that area.  If you're interested in having a Worldcon near you, help start a bid to bring a Worldcon to your area.

MegL said:

Quote

As for Kansas City, they're up against Montreal, which I'd say is a toss-up. Personally, I'd rather go to Montreal, but that's because I love Montreal. :)
It be nice if KC would get it (it's changed in 30 years) but knowing how it goes with World Con bidding, I doubt it will :dontgetit:.
And what is that supposed to mean? KC's bid against Anaheim was very strong, and I heard many people bemoaning the fact that they had to pick between two strong bids. (In contrast, the choices this year were perceived as between two weak bids.)  I think KC has re-entered the field as a strong favorite over Montreal, and told my Canadian friends this.  (Being an underdog is not by itself a reason not to bid, however, and pundits are not always correct anyway.)

Some people have declared that "no-zone" bidding means that there will be no contested races and that the Worldcon will permanently alternate between the East and West coasts of the USA, with nobody else being given a chance.  I think this is nonsense, and the recently-annouced bids for the next few years would seem to bear this out.

Let's see, for 2008 we see at least Chicago and Denver; for 2009, at least Kansas City and Montreal. We may see Columbus pop back into the game as well. Maybe people want to go to Australia so much that they'll leave the A2010 bid uncontested, but then 2011 looms.  But with the lead time just shortened to two years, I think people can afford to put off thinking that far ahead of time.

The real problem here is that one-Worldcon-per-decade rule of thumb.  If you can only attend Worldcons that happen within a single day driving distance, or worse, only those to which you can commute from your home, you're doomed to not having many Worldcons close to you.

Edit: I screwed up the attributions first time through. I hope I got it right this time.

Edited by Kevin Standlee, 09 September 2004 - 11:40 PM.

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#30 Kevin Standlee

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 11:53 PM

KRAD, on Sep 7 2004, 06:06 AM, said:

A lot of it depends on how together the bidders are. A New York-area WorldCon would get tons of people, just by virtue of the population density and the sheer volume of SF pros in the vicinity -- but New York-area fandom cannot get their fecal matter together to organize a coherent bid.
And if current (i.e. last twenty years) conditions never change, they never will. Besides, New York is more expensive than any other US city. I've never heard anyone who votes on Worldcon sites (and remember, you have to get the voters to choose you) have a kind word to say about a New York Worldcon, including many New York fans. The closest thing I've seen to a NY Worlccon bid in my twenty years in fandom was Robert Sacks' bid, which pretty much vanished when he died.

Here's an example of how badly Worldcon voters think of NY: In 1992, New York filed a bid for the 1995 NASFiC. The only other bid on the ballot was Atlanta (Dragon*Con). A well-organized hoax bid for I-95 in '95 ("RoadKillCon") also got lots of write-in votes, and managed to file just barely enough paperwork to qualify as a legal write-in bid. Furthermore, there was a strong amount of support for voting None of the Above. (Unlike Worldcon, if NOTA wins a NASFiC site selection, the NASFiC for that year is simply cancelled.)

New York finished behind both the write-in and NOTA. This means they had the ignominous fate of finishing fourth in a field of two.  :Oo:

KRAD said:

Also, running a WorldCon is a huge, complex endeavor, and one reason why larger cities in the U.S. often put together better bids than smaller ones is because they have more local fans who are willing and able to do the phenomenal amount of volunteer work necessary.
And yet, one of the (IMO) best Worldcons I've attended (and this year was my seventeenth) was the one in the smallest North American metro area to host a Worldcon in ages: Winnipeg, site of ConAdian.  (I'm biased, as I was deputy Chair; however, I think ConAdian was better than ConJose, the Worldcon I co-Chaired in 2002.) The local fan community couldn't possibly do the work on its own. The critical thing is how soon you call for help from the rest of the world. LoneStarCon 2 famously waited until about six weeks before the con (thus the "Emergency Holographic Texan" ribbons. For ConJose, it was about six months or so. Torcon 3 didn't appear to ever ask, and tried to mostly run their Worldcon "of their own" which is impossible even if you're Boston or Los Angeles these days.  Worldcons are too big and too complex for any single group to run them without help from the rest of the worldwide conrunning community.

KRAD said:

BTW, Chicago also has the advantage of being an airline hub -- for a lot of people, it's actually easier to get there, even if it isn't closer, because there are more direct flights there.
True. One of the reasons ConAdian was so small was that there are poor ariline connections to Winnipeg. I wasn't too bothered by this, because I took advantage of all the foolish overbooking (we warned them) to collect "bumps" from Northwest Airlines that led to me being able to fly to the 1995 Worldcon in Glasgow in business class.  :D
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#31 G1223

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 12:21 AM

Ok time to do some actual writing.
Heropa as usual as travel companion. We made to the airport . I did some final packing and started to really wonder if I had lost my mind.

The flight in was OK.  No major problems and I could deal with the micro sized airplane we had to come in and out on. A last bit of the luck from SD rubbed off on us I guess.

Got checked in easy enough and after asking for a mini fridge we started to look around.  Like SD the set up has us near a grocery store so stocking was easy to do. I also contacted EnTrance and his Wife Bossysister who contacted us later and let us know that we could get toghere on Friday evening.

We then settled into getting rested up as we had a few plans. Heropa got a walking bug and wanted to sleep so he got some shots of the Boston Area as well as additional stocking materials. Checked in via the net to see how things were going here.

First Boston is a city that makes the Subway a must. We headed over and got our passes so we could see parts of town. Our first stop was the Lord of the Rings exhibit. It was  my only real reason to go to the science Museum. Which was nice but after the smithsonian and Chicago's Sceince and Industry Museum few things come close.

The Exhibit was niceI enjoyed seeing the techniques used and I know Heropa got more insight of some of the stage craft aspects.  BTW I want that ring.

Got back and got Heropa registered and picked up my prereg materials. and returned to the room for lots of looking in stuff.Something that made so much sense and worked  is the idea of having NO Kaffeklatches on Thur. This helps prevent folks trying to crowd inswamp registration of those  events.

Next we headed back to the room to rerad and kind of get ready for tomorrow and got to meet the folks from the Artist  party at the end of the hall. ( This would be a place where I would findmyself often. Also doing work for no reason except pitching in.

End of Part 1
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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

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#32 MegL

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 01:40 AM

Kevin Standlee, on Sep 9 2004, 11:33 PM, said:

My first attempt to reply to this failed when the server appeared to crash.
Personally, I just want to slap the quoting system around tonight ;).

Quote

MegL said:

First, the problem IMO is that World Con bidders seem to think everything west of the Mississippi and East of the Rockies is in the midwest.
That's not how I'd define it.  What states would you consider to be "Midwest?"
Ack! That didn't come out right and I'm not making sense even to myself at this point.  What I was thinking about is how everyone thinks you can just run off to a place like Chicago because Illinois and Kansas are suppose to be "Midwest" states.  However, Kansas is more of a Midwest state on weather maps than in reality. Let's just skip this because I'm obviously not talking about Midwest anything here (and I can't remember exactly what I was trying to say either).

Quote

MegL said:

With all the Rust Belt flight in the last 15 years, I'd like to know why we don't see many SW/S/SE bids?
Could you define what you mean by "SW," "S," and "SE?"  What states?  Is Florida (site of 1992 Worldcon in Orlando) part of any of these areas?  How about Texas (site of 1997 Worldcon in San Antonio)?

Ok, I forgot those two :angel: Point made :)

As for how I'd break these areas down, SW is Arizona, New Mexico and parts of West Texas; South would be Texas over to Georgia/Florida. The SE would be Florida going north to at least Maryland and west as far as Alabama, maybe Mississippi.

Quote

Remember that, even under the best of circumstances, most regions won't see more than one Worldcon per decade at the most.  (California is two separate regions IMO; I'd lump the northern half of the state with the entire Pacific Northwest, and the southern half with Arizona and the rest of the Southwest).

You know, I'm not sure I'd break them down like that. Southern California is almost a region unto its own and I would think physically grouping in New Mexico and the west half of Texas with So. Cal is streatching things (keep in mind there are two mountain ranges in between L.A. and West Texas) :dontgetit:. Now grouping Arizona in with So. Cal as its own region might work but still think throwing in New Mexico is pushing it.

Snipped the next part out but it was really insightful :). BTW, I do realize that you have to have interested people to create a con and bid for Worldcon. I was just tossing out places I couldn't remember ever having one that were closer than Chicago (you'd think there'd be enough orginized fans to attempt a bid in New Mexico or Oklahoma but so far it's not happened (it might be a lack of physical location to hold it (i.e. enough hotels and convention space)) :( )

Quote

Remember that bids aren't usually started by people far away who pick out a city and say "let's hold it there."  Most bids are started by people in that area.  If you're interested in having a Worldcon near you, help start a bid to bring a Worldcon to your area.

Seeing I live in a area of the country that's underpopulated and doesn't have any semblence of originized SF fandom in any way, shape or form, that's just not going to happen :(

Quote

KRAD said:

As for Kansas City, they're up against Montreal, which I'd say is a toss-up. Personally, I'd rather go to Montreal, but that's because I love Montreal. :)

MegL said:

It be nice if KC would get it (it's changed in 30 years) but knowing how it goes with World Con bidding, I doubt it will :dontgetit:.
And what is that supposed to mean? KC's bid against Anaheim was very strong, and I heard many people bemoaning the fact that they had to pick between two strong bids. (In contrast, the choices this year were perceived as between two weak bids.)  I think KC has re-entered the field as a strong favorite over Montreal, and told my Canadian friends this.  (Being an underdog is not by itself a reason not to bid, however, and pundits are not always correct anyway.)

Well you must have been hanging out with a different group than I was that year because it was clear that K.C. never had a chance of winning that bid against Anaheim. From what I've heard via the grapevine over the last twenty years KC, St. Louis and New Orleans are basically being black balled for past Worldcons that didn't go well (though St. Louis is also supposedly out because the weather there during Labor Day is usually too hot (an no one wants stuck in St.L with that weather), as well and New Orleans pretty much dug it's own grave after the debacal they had as a Worldcon in the '80's :glare: ). That's how I've always heard it at the cons I've managed to go to that know what Worldcon is. Of course it's all rumors and probably not true but Fandom's a small town in the sense that rumors run rampent and people tend to act on the rumors over the facts many times.

Unfortunately many of the cons I actually attend and BBS's I hang out at, don't know what Worldcon is to begin with, so hearing the latest info on WC is pretty scarce [BTW, being a Media fan I run into a lot of people who don't know what WorldCon or Dragon*Con are :wacko:. Don't ask me why they don't know but I have to explain what one or both cons is to at least one person every year.]

Quote

Some people have declared that "no-zone" bidding means that there will be no contested races and that the Worldcon will permanently alternate between the East and West coasts of the USA, with nobody else being given a chance.  I think this is nonsense, and the recently-annouced bids for the next few years would seem to bear this out.

Let's see, for 2008 we see at least Chicago and Denver; for 2009, at least Kansas City and Montreal. We may see Columbus pop back into the game as well. Maybe people want to go to Australia so much that they'll leave the A2010 bid uncontested, but then 2011 looms.  But with the lead time just shortened to two years, I think people can afford to put off thinking that far ahead of time.

The real problem here is that one-Worldcon-per-decade rule of thumb.  If you can only attend Worldcons that happen within a single day driving distance, or worse, only those to which you can commute from your home, you're doomed to not having many Worldcons close to you.

I've never lived with in one day driving distance of a WorldCon in my life, other than Kansas City in 1976 and I was 11 that year and didn't even know about it (unless I'm missing a Worldcon in Denver, which is probable) :).

Kevin, you want to know what's sad? I've come to the realization I'm never going to be able to go to a Worldcon even though it's the one con I've wanted to go to since I was a teenager :(. Between the distance and the cost and the feeling that Worldcon no longer has anything of interest for me, it isn't worth even thinking about anymore and I find that very depressing :down:.  I haven't a clue why I even got involved in this thread other than I guess a part of me hasn't quite let go of wanting to attend.

#33 Kevin Standlee

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 11:24 AM

MegL said:

Kevin Standlee said:

Could you define what you mean by "SW," "S," and "SE?"  What states?  Is Florida (site of 1992 Worldcon in Orlando) part of any of these areas?  How about Texas (site of 1997 Worldcon in San Antonio)?
As for how I'd break these areas down, SW is Arizona, New Mexico and parts of West Texas;
Last Worldcon: 1978 Phoenix. No bids from this area due to lack of facilities; they need to build another hotel in downtown Phoenix before we'd likely even consider it, and even then, it's unlikely that the local fans would want to do it. I don't think Albuquerque has the right facilities mix.  There was a Westercon in El Paso  in 1996, and less than 400 people attended. Roswell NM was San Jose's competition for the 2002 Worldcon, and was even on the ballot, although shouldn't have been taken very seriously.  (They'd pre-announced that I, the chairman of the other bid on the ballot, would be their FGoH if they won.)

MegL said:

South would be Texas over to Georgia/Florida.
1986 Atlanta,  1988 New Orleans,  1997 San Antonio.  Some hints that at least one Texas group might be interested in bidding again. LoneStarCon 2 made their Final Report (all money spent) to WSFS at this year's Business Meeting.

MegL said:

The SE would be Florida going north to at least Maryland and west as far as Alabama, maybe Mississippi.
Your areas overlap, but: 1986 Atlanta, 1992 Orlando, 1998 Baltimore. 2011 proto-bid for Washington DC.

MegL said:

Kevin Standlee said:

(California is two separate regions IMO; I'd lump the northern half of the state with the entire Pacific Northwest, and the southern half with Arizona and the rest of the Southwest).
You know, I'm not sure I'd break them down like that. Southern California is almost a region unto its own and I would think physically grouping in New Mexico and the west half of Texas with So. Cal is streatching things (keep in mind there are two mountain ranges in between L.A. and West Texas) :dontgetit:. Now grouping Arizona in with So. Cal as its own region might work but still think throwing in New Mexico is pushing it.
I think Southern California (San Luis Obisbo, Kern, and Riverside Counties southward) groups with the Las Vegas area (Clark County NV) and Arizona, while Texas and the states adjoining it (including Louisiana) form a region of their own.

I group Northern California with the Pacific Northwest mainly because there haven't been any bids that even got as far as the election stage from the PN for a long time. Seattle, of course, has hosted numerous Westercons and will host next year's NASFiC.  Portland could host a Worldcon, but only if they build a hotel near their convention center -- otherwise most of the hotel space is on the opposite side of a river from the convention center. People will put up with that in Europe, but not in North America.

MegL said:

...you'd think there'd be enough orginized fans to attempt a bid in New Mexico or Oklahoma but so far it's not happened (it might be a lack of physical location to hold it (i.e. enough hotels and convention space) :( )
That's the reason. You need a particular combination of convention space and hotels; without it, no amout of enthusiasm will win over the voters.

MegL said:

MegL said:

It be nice if KC would get it (it's changed in 30 years) but knowing how it goes with World Con bidding, I doubt it will :dontgetit:.

Kevin Standlee said:

And what is that supposed to mean? KC's bid against Anaheim was very strong, and I heard many people bemoaning the fact that they had to pick between two strong bids.
Well you must have been hanging out with a different group than I was that year because it was clear that K.C. never had a chance of winning that bid against Anaheim.
That is not at all how it looked to me going into the election. I can't find the voting results right now, but it was by no means a walkover.

MegL said:

From what I've heard via the grapevine over the last twenty years KC, St. Louis and New Orleans are basically being black balled for past Worldcons that didn't go well (though St. Louis is also supposedly out because the weather there during Labor Day is usually too hot (an no one wants stuck in St.L with that weather), as well and New Orleans pretty much dug it's own grave after the debacal they had as a Worldcon in the '80's :glare: ).
Ill-will from MidAmeriCon (1976), if there was much, has mostly dissapated as far as I can tell, and I don't recall it being much of a factor in the 2006 race. Enough time has passed there, it's a completely different facility (in another state, even), that I think KC is being evaluated on its own merits.  Anaheim was the safe choice, in that it was a known quantity, and that was probably why they won. However, now KC is perceived as that safe choice, and starts the campaign with a residual goodwill from the 2006 race. (This, BTW, is a good reason to conduct your bid campaigns in a friendly way; the people against whom you're bidding today may be your supporters next time, so don't alienate them.)

New Orleans was pretty bad, by all accounts. (It was the last Worldcon I didn't attend.) They set low-water marks on just about everything except Registration, which ConFrancisco managed to do in 1993. :(  The only thing going for them is that people like the city and might even vote for another N.O. bid just because "if the con sucks, I can always play in New Orleans." (In fact, for many years after NolaCon II, and even to this day, there is a contingent of people who make their Worldcon votes based on which place is more interesting if the con fails. Sad, really.)

St. Louis? They haven't hosted a Worldcon since 1969. They were one of the four bidders in the 1988 race that New Orleans won.  I know nothing at all about them. The Archon group are bidding for the 2007 NASFiC, which might signal an intention to get back into the Worldcon game.  Aside from weather complaints (and lots of places are too hot on Worldcon weekend-- indeed only Winnipeg and Melbourne were comfortable to me), I know of no particular strikes against them.

MegL said:

Unfortunately many of the cons I actually attend and BBS's I hang out at, don't know what Worldcon is to begin with, so hearing the latest info on WC is pretty scarce (BTW, being a Media fan I run into a lot of people who don't know what WorldCon or Dragon*Con are :wacko:. Don't ask me why they don't know but I have to explain what one or both cons is to at least one person every year.)
:blink: Worldcon I understand, but Dragon*Con?  D*C is the biggest mediacon in the World; I'm astounded that people with an interest in things media-related haven't heard of it. Indeed, one of the things I've had to fight in promoting Worldcons is the people saying, "Why should I pay $200 to attend your dinky little con when I can go to a BIG show like D*C for one-fifth the cost?" (There are IMO good reasons, but they're hard to articulate, tend to boil down to "quality vs. quantity," and if they don't resonate with you, you're unlikely to be interested in a Worldcon anyway. It's astouding to hear Worldcon being called small and intimate with nearly 6,000 people attending, but that's what some of the reviews call it.)

MegL said:

Kevin, you want to know what's sad? I've come to the realization I'm never going to be able to go to a Worldcon even though it's the one con I've wanted to go to since I was a teenager :(.
Is there an emoticon for *sympathy*? Where do you live? How far can you travel? Is flying actually an issue? (My wife refuses to fly; she drove to Toronto and Boston from the West Coast. In fact, she's somewhere around Memphis today, driving to Albuquerque to visit her sister and then continue driving home.) Airfares are not actually that expensive if you shop around; I just booked my flight from the Bay Area to Washington DC for SMOFCon 22, this December and it only cost about $230. Actually, hotel costs are apt to be more of a concern than airfare; I spent nearly $1000 on my room at the Sheraton this past weekend, which was a lot more than I spent on airfare from the West Coast.
Kevin Standlee, World Science Fiction Society Rules Wonk
Director & Secretary, SFSFC Inc., Sponsor of ConJosé, the 2002 Worldcon
Director & Secretary, CWSFA, Sponsor of Due North, the 2005 Westercon
Fan GoH, CascadiaCon, the 2005 North American Science Fiction Convention

#34 G1223

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 12:15 PM

Meg I am attending LA in 2006. Let me know if you want to go. I can see if there is anything in the bread on the water jar. I might be able to help out on air fare if needed or admission if you are close enough you want to make the trip  by car.
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#35 MegL

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Posted 12 September 2004 - 10:18 PM

Kevin Standlee, on Sep 11 2004, 11:24 AM, said:

MegL said:

From what I've heard via the grapevine over the last twenty years KC, St. Louis and New Orleans are basically being black balled for past Worldcons that didn't go well (though St. Louis is also supposedly out because the weather there during Labor Day is usually too hot (an no one wants stuck in St.L with that weather), as well and New Orleans pretty much dug it's own grave after the debacal they had as a Worldcon in the '80's :glare: ).
Ill-will from MidAmeriCon (1976), if there was much, has mostly dissapated as far as I can tell, and I don't recall it being much of a factor in the 2006 race. Enough time has passed there, it's a completely different facility (in another state, even), that I think KC is being evaluated on its own merits.  Anaheim was the safe choice, in that it was a known quantity, and that was probably why they won. However, now KC is perceived as that safe choice, and starts the campaign with a residual goodwill from the 2006 race. (This, BTW, is a good reason to conduct your bid campaigns in a friendly way; the people against whom you're bidding today may be your supporters next time, so don't alienate them.)

Ok, I'm going to have to dig up KC's current bid because I can't think where in the world they could be having the convention if it's not on the Missouri side of town  :eek4: .

Quote

New Orleans was pretty bad, by all accounts. (It was the last Worldcon I didn't attend.) They set low-water marks on just about everything except Registration, which ConFrancisco managed to do in 1993. :(  The only thing going for them is that people like the city and might even vote for another N.O. bid just because "if the con sucks, I can always play in New Orleans." (In fact, for many years after NolaCon II, and even to this day, there is a contingent of people who make their Worldcon votes based on which place is more interesting if the con fails. Sad, really.)

Unfortunately, if you're going to spend the money and travel the distance, having back up plans is usually a good thing :(.

Quote

MegL said:

Unfortunately many of the cons I actually attend and BBS's I hang out at, don't know what Worldcon is to begin with, so hearing the latest info on WC is pretty scarce (BTW, being a Media fan I run into a lot of people who don't know what WorldCon or Dragon*Con are :wacko:. Don't ask me why they don't know but I have to explain what one or both cons is to at least one person every year.)
:blink: Worldcon I understand, but Dragon*Con?  D*C is the biggest mediacon in the World; I'm astounded that people with an interest in things media-related haven't heard of it. Indeed, one of the things I've had to fight in promoting Worldcons is the people saying, "Why should I pay $200 to attend your dinky little con when I can go to a BIG show like D*C for one-fifth the cost?" (There are IMO good reasons, but they're hard to articulate, tend to boil down to "quality vs. quantity," and if they don't resonate with you, you're unlikely to be interested in a Worldcon anyway. It's astouding to hear Worldcon being called small and intimate with nearly 6,000 people attending, but that's what some of the reviews call it.)

Actually I think most fans I know would say San Diego Comic Con was the biggest Media Con in the world - that or one of the big Creation Cons. That's if they've ever heard of those conventions, as well. Thinking about it, I think the main thing that seems to come up when I run into people who don't know about larger conventions is where they live, how old they are, and what fandom they are out of. A good chunk of fans I know, who I talk to about conventions, live west of the Mississippi and have never attened a East Coast event and don't seem to keep up with conventions other than the ones they attend personally. As for age, the younger the fan the less likely they are to know about events (though one person who had to have Dragon*Con explain to them this year that I know of was a guy from one of my chat rooms who's in his mid 30's (but he lives on the West Coast)).

What fandom you are involved in is also a big deal.  Media conventions have become very narrow cast in the last 10 to 15 years and most people I run into that go to cons these days go to cons specifically for their interests.  The other large group who was in the dark about Dragon Con this year were Anime fans. Some news broke at D*C and people were lost as to what Dragon Con was, where it was held, and most important (to them) why it was important, seeing it wasn't a Anime Convention  :eek:.  I got the sinking feeling many of the people I was talking to had never heard of the idea of a general, multi tracked convention before, let alone knew they existed  :whatsthat:.

As for Worldcon being small and intimate, I hadn't heard that one before :D. However, I do know that a lot of people I've run into at conventions the last few years are looking for small and intimate conventions over the larger events, while also knowing those hunting larger events over the smaller ones as you seem to. Looks like there might be changes brewing here (hadn't really thought about that before because I had thought the move was to the smaller conventions - now it seems that's not exactly the case)  :eh:.

Quote

MegL said:

Kevin, you want to know what's sad? I've come to the realization I'm never going to be able to go to a Worldcon even though it's the one con I've wanted to go to since I was a teenager :(.
Is there an emoticon for *sympathy*? Where do you live? How far can you travel? Is flying actually an issue? (My wife refuses to fly; she drove to Toronto and Boston from the West Coast. In fact, she's somewhere around Memphis today, driving to Albuquerque to visit her sister and then continue driving home.) Airfares are not actually that expensive if you shop around; I just booked my flight from the Bay Area to Washington DC for SMOFCon 22, this December and it only cost about $230. Actually, hotel costs are apt to be more of a concern than airfare; I spent nearly $1000 on my room at the Sheraton this past weekend, which was a lot more than I spent on airfare from the West Coast.

I don't know if we have a sympathy smilie or not (we could use one). If so I'd use it, because I know your pain about having someone in the family who doesn't want to fly. My dad no longer wishes to fly because of his age and health (he did twenty four years in the Air Force, so he's not afraid to fly) and I'm so sick of driving through New Mexico and Arizona to go to California for Xmas I could scream :cry:.

As to where I live, I live in Southwest, Kansas, so flying just isn't cheap and it is a issue. It's three hours (one way) minimum to get to a airport and the airports in question don't have connecting flights to many of the larger cities (Denver is five hours from here but Denver has to be the most expensive place to fly out of I know of). Don't even think of trying to fly from here to Chicago for under $400, for starters (last time I went to a con in Chicago I took Amtrak because it was cheaper :eek2: ). However, if you want to go to L.A. or Bakersfield, California, you can often find it for under $300 or could a year or so ago (the planes are going that direction via the hubs in Texas).


G1223, thanks for the offer - that's sweet of you :blush:. However, I'm not sure where I'll be in 2006, so I can't make plans for going to a convention this early (but I had forgotten LA has Worldcon in 2006 - my sister is currently living out in California so I'll keep it in mind :) ).

#36 Kevin Standlee

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 11:58 AM

I did not notice your last reply when you made it -- turns out that I had an old, obsolete e-mail address in my profile.

MegL, on Sep 12 2004, 08:18 PM, said:

Kevin Standlee, on Sep 11 2004, 11:24 AM, said:

...it's a completely different facility (in another state, even), that I think KC is being evaluated on its own merits.
Ok, I'm going to have to dig up KC's current bid because I can't think where in the world they could be having the convention if it's not on the Missouri side of town  :eek4: .
The Kansas City in 2009 bid is for Overland Park KS.  My thanks to Chaz Baden's Worldcon Bids List, which saves me having to remember where the groups' web pages are.

MegL said:

Kevin Standlee said:

MegL said:

Kevin, you want to know what's sad? I've come to the realization I'm never going to be able to go to a Worldcon even though it's the one con I've wanted to go to since I was a teenager :(.
Is there an emoticon for *sympathy*? Where do you live? How far can you travel?
As to where I live, I live in Southwest Kansas, so flying just isn't cheap and it is a issue.
Okay, then it looks like both the Kansas City and Denver bids are within your one-day-drive range, yes?

MegL said:

(last time I went to a con in Chicago I took Amtrak because it was cheaper :eek2: ).
Nothing wrong with that.  I like trains; there just aren't enough of them. I've only taken Amtrak to one convention -- a SMOFCon in Seattle some years ago.  I once looked into trying to charter a private railroad car for a group wanting to go to Potlatch when it was in Eugene, but costs aside, the main issue was that it would take too long to make the trip (probably Emeryville-Eugene for operational reasons) and that we would have been tied to the schedule (or lack of same) of the Coast Starlight.  But I digress.
Kevin Standlee, World Science Fiction Society Rules Wonk
Director & Secretary, SFSFC Inc., Sponsor of ConJosé, the 2002 Worldcon
Director & Secretary, CWSFA, Sponsor of Due North, the 2005 Westercon
Fan GoH, CascadiaCon, the 2005 North American Science Fiction Convention


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