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Obituaries Dead Soldier Politics

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#1 Nonny

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 02:50 PM

http://www.truthout....4/090604A.shtml

May he rest in peace, and may his grieving sister find the strength to continue to spread this word.

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#2 ZipperInt

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 06:01 PM

:( A sad story indeed.

I don't envy you Americans one bit come November - you have a choice between two evils, and in this day and age we truly need good leaders. :(
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#3 Drew

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 06:51 PM

ZipperInt, on Sep 6 2004, 05:59 PM, said:

I don't envy you Americans one bit come November - you have a choice between two evils, and in this day and age we truly need good leaders. :(
Well, of course, not all of us see it that way. I see it as a choice between leadership and incompetence. And I don't think I need to tell you who I see as the leader.  :cool:
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#4 StarDust

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 07:26 PM

Agreed.  For every story like this you could easily find an opposing story, as we have all seen.

#5 Caretaker

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 07:38 PM

Drew, on Sep 6 2004, 05:49 PM, said:

ZipperInt, on Sep 6 2004, 05:59 PM, said:

I don't envy you Americans one bit come November - you have a choice between two evils, and in this day and age we truly need good leaders. :(
Well, of course, not all of us see it that way. I see it as a choice between leadership and incompetence. And I don't think I need to tell you who I see as the leader.  :cool:
Yep.  I can't see it as two evils.  Otherwise, we might as well just give up on the country.  It would be nice if there were more candidates, but... we take the hand we're dealt.

I also see this as a choice between incompetence and leadership, at least one some level.

#6 Bouree57

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 07:49 PM

ZipperInt, on Sep 6 2004, 05:59 PM, said:

:( A sad story indeed.

I don't envy you Americans one bit come November - you have a choice between two evils, and in this day and age we truly need good leaders. :(
Yes it is a sad story and I feel for the parents and the sister.

But I resent that all the blame for this is going on one man's head. GWB wasn't the only one who saw the intellegence gathered and came to the conclusion that Iraq was a threat. Congress saw and agreed. Tony Blair and Great Britian saw the intellegence and agreed. Half a dozen other countries saw it and agreed. But one man is being blamed for our not finding WMD and that is just not fair. Such is war though. It's not fair that young men and women will die there, but they are serving the cause of liberty and it's a damn shame they don't all know it.

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#7 Nonny

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 09:35 AM

Bouree57, on Sep 7 2004, 12:49 AM, said:

It's not fair that young men and women will die there, but they are serving the cause of liberty and it's a damn shame they don't all know it.
The point that the young soldier made before he died is that he was NOT serving the cause of liberty and it's a damn shame you can't see it.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#8 Drew

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 09:38 AM

Nonny, on Sep 7 2004, 09:35 AM, said:

Bouree57, on Sep 7 2004, 12:49 AM, said:

It's not fair that young men and women will die there, but they are serving the cause of liberty and it's a damn shame they don't all know it.
The point that the young soldier made before he died is that he was NOT serving the cause of liberty and it's a damn shame you can't see it.
Actually, it's more of a shame that he couldn't see that he was fighting for the cause of liberty. Just as our soldiers are continuing to do.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#9 Nonny

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 09:42 AM

Drew, on Sep 6 2004, 11:51 PM, said:

ZipperInt, on Sep 6 2004, 05:59 PM, said:

I don't envy you Americans one bit come November - you have a choice between two evils, and in this day and age we truly need good leaders. :(
Well, of course, not all of us see it that way. I see it as a choice between leadership and incompetence. And I don't think I need to tell you who I see as the leader.  :cool:
I also see it as a choice between leadership and incompetence.  I doubt we agree on much, if anything, else though.  :)

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#10 Nonny

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 09:49 AM

Drew, on Sep 7 2004, 02:38 PM, said:

Nonny, on Sep 7 2004, 09:35 AM, said:

Bouree57, on Sep 7 2004, 12:49 AM, said:

It's not fair that young men and women will die there, but they are serving the cause of liberty and it's a damn shame they don't all know it.
The point that the young soldier made before he died is that he was NOT serving the cause of liberty and it's a damn shame you can't see it.
Actually, it's more of a shame that he couldn't see that he was fighting for the cause of liberty. Just as our soldiers are continuing to do.
He saw what he saw.  He told his sister.  Now she's telling anybody who will listen.  Apparently, not you.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#11 Drew

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 09:54 AM

Call me crazy, but I support liberty everywhere, not just in the United States. And unfortunately, liberty is costly. This young soldier wants us to think of him as being on a fool's crusade. But liberty is not a fool's crusade, and it is not foolish. Nor is he foolish for fighting for it. Liberty, wherever its seeds are sown, is worth fighting for. Indeed, it may be the only thing worth fighting for.

This was a brave soldier fighting for a just cause. He should be honored.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#12 Nonny

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 10:31 AM

Drew, on Sep 7 2004, 02:54 PM, said:

Call me crazy, but I support liberty everywhere, not just in the United States. And unfortunately, liberty is costly. This young soldier wants us to think of him as being on a fool's crusade. But liberty is not a fool's crusade, and it is not foolish. Nor is he foolish for fighting for it. Liberty, wherever its seeds are sown, is worth fighting for. Indeed, it may be the only thing worth fighting for.

This was a brave soldier fighting for a just cause. He should be honored.
Okay, you're crazy.  

I support liberty everywhere, unlike Bush's father, who refused to recognize Slovenia and Croatia when they declared their independence.  He didn't want to spend money on new embassies, so he lied and said that neither nation had a history of independence.  Even if that were true, it would be a sad, sorry reason to deny a people their independence.  

Yes, liberty is costly, but if you bothered to listen to what this brave soldier said before he died, he was not fighting for liberty, and wanted his sister to know it.  Now she wants you to know it too.  

Liberty is not a fool's crusade, but what Bush et al are doing in Iraq most certainly is, and funny you should mention "crusade."  No, not funny, really.  Scary.  

He was a brave soldier fighting for a cause he came to see was not just, and he is honored.  He would be honored more if you would pay attention to his words, and not just knee jerk your way back to the opinion you came in with.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#13 Drew

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 10:56 AM

Nonny, on Sep 7 2004, 10:31 AM, said:

Liberty is not a fool's crusade, but what Bush et al are doing in Iraq most certainly is, and funny you should mention "crusade."  No, not funny, really.  Scary.
"Scary" is a bunch of Islamist terrorists slaughtering your schoolmates right before your eyes, then shooting others in the back as you all flee for your lives. That's "scary." Let's reserve the word for situations that actually fit the definition.

By the way, this is supposed to be a kinder, gentler OT now. Please don't call your fellow members "crazy" or attempt to characterize their words as "knee jerk" or use such an obviously negative, combative tone.

I read that woman's message. I sympathize with her loss. But liberty and freedom in Iraq is a cause worth fighting for. Unfortunately, her narrow definition of "liberty" meant her brother not having to fight. I sympathize with her loss, but I wish she could broaden her perspective a bit.

Edited by Drew, 07 September 2004 - 11:15 AM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#14 Mr.Calgary

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 12:55 PM

Drew, on Sep 7 2004, 08:56 AM, said:

By the way, this is supposed to be a kinder, gentler OT now.

:blink:  changing their minds maybe?


Quote

I read that woman's message. I sympathize with her loss. But liberty and freedom in Iraq is a cause worth fighting for. Unfortunately, her narrow definition of "liberty" meant her brother not having to fight. I sympathize with her loss, but I wish she could broaden her perspective a bit.

Likewise.
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#15 nutmeg

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 01:10 PM

I also sympathize with her loss and applaud her effort to spread her brother's message during this time of grief.

On a side note, just some rambling thoughts:

I'm sure that those of suitable age that see this war as just and honorable have gone down and attempted to sign up to join in this honorable cause. If not, why not? What is honorable about asking others to put their lives on the line? If I were still in the military, I would find more comfort in another patriot at my side than in a distant armchair sipping on a brew and waving a flag from his/her SUV.  What is  more important than liberty? If Iraq is a threat to our country, why not sign up and fight there? These are questions I've had since 9-11 (actually, 9-12) and the Army would not let me back in because of my age.

But maybe I've missed something important that explains all of this, eh?

nutmeg

#16 WildChildCait

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 01:57 PM

Drew, then maybe you should extend Nonny the same courtesy, instead of saying

Quote

"Scary" is a bunch of Islamist terrorists slaughtering your schoolmates right before your eyes, then shooting others in the back as you all flee for your lives. That's "scary." Let's reserve the word for situations that actually fit the definition.

I am sure Nonny knows quite well waht she was saying, and if she said scary, she meant scary.
As to possibly Islamic (I have not yet heard this confirmed, and have heard they where probably Chechen. Not islamic. Source : Radio 4 pm program today, 5.09 or thereabouts). terrorists shooting at schoolkids, that is in a whole different league than scary. Think terrifying.

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#17 Nonny

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 02:07 PM

Drew, on Sep 7 2004, 03:56 PM, said:

Nonny, on Sep 7 2004, 10:31 AM, said:

Liberty is not a fool's crusade, but what Bush et al are doing in Iraq most certainly is, and funny you should mention "crusade."  No, not funny, really.  Scary.
"Scary" is a bunch of Islamist terrorists slaughtering your schoolmates right before your eyes, then shooting others in the back as you all flee for your lives. That's "scary." Let's reserve the word for situations that actually fit the definition.

By the way, this is supposed to be a kinder, gentler OT now. Please don't call your fellow members "crazy" or attempt to characterize their words as "knee jerk" or use such an obviously negative, combative tone.

I read that woman's message. I sympathize with her loss. But liberty and freedom in Iraq is a cause worth fighting for. Unfortunately, her narrow definition of "liberty" meant her brother not having to fight. I sympathize with her loss, but I wish she could broaden her perspective a bit.
Back in the Crusades, scary was a bunch of Christian terrorists....  

I was referring to the word "crusade" as you might have noticed, marked off in quotation marks as it was.  You might have noticed that, if you hadn't been so quick to misunderstand.  Let's reserve the word "crusade" for situations that do not make the friends we have left in the Middle East nervous.  

Sigh.  Here I was, being all kinder and gentler, doing exactly what you asked me to do, and you're STILL upset?!  There is just no pleasing you.  Okay, next time you tell me to call you crazy, I won't call you crazy.  

That woman lost her brother.  Apparently you don't mind speaking ill of the dead, as you did in a previous post.  Are you over there, making sure that liberty and freedom is what's being fought for?  I don't think so.  He was there, discovering something quite different.  He said so, you twisted his courageous words into, "this young soldier wants us to think of him as being on a fool's crusade." No, he does not want us to think of him as being on a fool's crusade, and not just because he is dead and not currently thinking and being at all, but he does want us to know what the real deal is, and you can't take the truth, so you dishonor his memory.  Shame on you.  

And shame on you for saying that his grieving sister should "broaden her perspective a bit."  She did  broaden it, when she believed what her brother told her.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#18 Nonny

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 02:10 PM

Chaddee, on Sep 7 2004, 06:57 PM, said:

Drew, then maybe you should extend Nonny the same courtesy, instead of saying

Quote

"Scary" is a bunch of Islamist terrorists slaughtering your schoolmates right before your eyes, then shooting others in the back as you all flee for your lives. That's "scary." Let's reserve the word for situations that actually fit the definition.
I am sure Nonny knows quite well waht she was saying, and if she said scary, she meant scary.
As to possibly Islamic (I have not yet heard this confirmed, and have heard they where probably Chechen. Not islamic. Source : Radio 4 pm program today, 5.09 or thereabouts). terrorists shooting at schoolkids, that is in a whole different league than scary. Think terrifying.

Chaddee
Thanks, Chaddee.  Some days it takes me a while to type, or I would have seen your post before I posted mine.  You are absolutely right.  That terrible tragedy was well beyond scary.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#19 Ilphi

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 02:25 PM

This topic will get strong opinions from everyone; and everyone is entitled to how they feel. Please keep the discussion on issues rather than straying to personal remarks.
Yea, ere my hot youth pass, I speak to my people and say:
Ye shall be foolish as I; ye shall scatter, not save;
Ye shall venture your all, lest ye lose what is more than all;
Ye shall call for a miracle, taking Christ at His word.
And for this I will answer, O people, answer here and hereafter,
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#20 Nonny

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 02:35 PM

Ilphi, on Sep 7 2004, 07:25 PM, said:

This topic will get strong opinions from everyone; and everyone is entitled to how they feel. Please keep the discussion on issues rather than straying to personal remarks.
I would prefer that too.  

At issue, the words of a dead soldier.  He didn't have the right to express what he did while alive and on active duty.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot



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