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Obituaries Dead Soldier Politics

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#21 Banapis

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 02:50 PM

Mr.Calgary, on Sep 7 2004, 01:55 PM, said:

Drew, on Sep 7 2004, 08:56 AM, said:

By the way, this is supposed to be a kinder, gentler OT now.

:blink:  changing their minds maybe?
Oh no, we're definitely still shooting for a kinder gentler OT! ;)

Not rain, nor snow, nor sleet, nor hail will deter us from that goal.  Well OK, maybe hail because that stings a little when it hits you.   Especially, that golfball sized hail! :D

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#22 Drew

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 02:52 PM

Nonny, on Sep 7 2004, 02:35 PM, said:

At issue, the words of a dead soldier.  He didn't have the right to express what he did while alive and on active duty.
No one said anything of the sort, and I'll caution both you and Chaddee from attributing to people things they did not say.

(And that's the nicest thing I can say on the matter, because I am otherwise rather pissed off at the moment.)

Edited by Drew, 07 September 2004 - 02:52 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#23 Godeskian

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 02:54 PM

uhm, i thought a soldier on active duty didn't have the righ to critise his superiors?

and isn't hte president the commander in chief and so in fact everyone's superior in the military?

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#24 WildChildCait

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 02:55 PM

Drew

Considering i lifed my quote directly from your post, I'd say you said it. I only quoted you, so therefore you have no reason and no right to 'caution' (and that sounds so parental that I can't help but comment ) me. Unless you are saying you did  not say what I quoted you on?

Edited by Chaddee, 07 September 2004 - 03:00 PM.

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#25 Kimmer

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 03:05 PM

Would someone please tell me the history behind "truthout.org".

Not to discount the sister, but here in my little town we had a soldier die. He was proud to serve his country. He wrote letters and emails home to many folks around here telling everyone how he felt, how he supported Pres. Bush and the war. His family gave interviews to that effect after he died, and at his memorial service here in town (held outdoors to handle the crowd of people who came).

Now - now, the mom and sis are talking out and doing a Kerry commercial because they hate Bush. I feel badly for them, it's rough to lose a son/brother (I know, my brother was only 38 when he died); but to me they are dishonoring his death and his memory by their actions.

So that leads me to wonder about this sister as well.

nutmeg, you asked about people being willing to serve. My husband is over the age they would take, otherwise he would have joined and gone - and done so with my blessings.

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#26 Drew

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 03:07 PM

Dear Nonny and Chaddee: You have cut me to the quick. I cannot withstand the impeccable logic with which you land each blow to my admittedly oversized ego. I yield the floor to you both.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#27 Nonny

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 03:14 PM

Drew, on Sep 7 2004, 07:52 PM, said:

Nonny, on Sep 7 2004, 02:35 PM, said:

At issue, the words of a dead soldier.  He didn't have the right to express what he did while alive and on active duty.
No one said anything of the sort, and I'll caution both you and Chaddee from attributing to people things they did not say.
I think you misunderstand.  That's what I'm saying.  That the issue here is a dead soldier who didn't have the right to speak out against the C-I-C when he was alive and on active duty.  I attibute this to myself, because it's what I said, restating the issue I raised.  

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#28 Nonny

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 03:15 PM

Cyberhippie, on Sep 7 2004, 07:54 PM, said:

uhm, i thought a soldier on active duty didn't have the righ to critise his superiors?

and isn't hte president the commander in chief and so in fact everyone's superior in the military?
Absolutely true.  

Nonny
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#29 Drew

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 03:20 PM

Allow me to step back onto the floor to clarify something:

Nonny wrote:

Quote

Apparently you don't mind speaking ill of the dead, as you did in a previous post. Are you over there, making sure that liberty and freedom is what's being fought for? I don't think so. He was there, discovering something quite different. He said so, you twisted his courageous words into, "this young soldier wants us to think of him as being on a fool's crusade." No, he does not want us to think of him as being on a fool's crusade, and not just because he is dead and not currently thinking and being at all, but he does want us to know what the real deal is, and you can't take the truth, so you dishonor his memory. Shame on you.

I never spoke ill of the dead. I said that this soldier should be honored for his part in fighting for liberty. I honor his memory, I honor his service and the service of all those who fight in this war.

There. That's done.

You may now have the last word.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#30 Nonny

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 03:27 PM

Pickles, on Sep 7 2004, 08:05 PM, said:

Would someone please tell me the history behind "truthout.org".

Not to discount the sister, but here in my little town we had a soldier die. He was proud to serve his country. He wrote letters and emails home to many folks around here telling everyone how he felt, how he supported Pres. Bush and the war. His family gave interviews to that effect after he died, and at his memorial service here in town (held outdoors to handle the crowd of people who came).

Now - now, the mom and sis are talking out and doing a Kerry commercial because they hate Bush. I feel badly for them, it's rough to lose a son/brother (I know, my brother was only 38 when he died); but to me they are dishonoring his death and his memory by their actions.

So that leads me to wonder about this sister as well.

nutmeg, you asked about people being willing to serve. My husband is over the age they would take, otherwise he would have joined and gone - and done so with my blessings.

Pickles
I'm sure that there are many men and women in uniform who believe in their C-I-C.  I know that there are many others who don't, but will follow his orders anyway.  The article above tells about one of them.  

Whether or not a particular soldier was proud to serve, his or her grieving loved ones have the right to express their own feelings and beliefs.  Many Americans don't want their loved ones to join up these days.  Many support their loved ones' decisions to serve.  There are many sides to this, but the one I know best is the one I hear at my VAMC whenever a newly disabled veteran gets reminded that he or she is no longer on active duty and may speak out at will.  I have not yet heard good about Bush from a newly disabled veteran.  I have not heard any confidence in Bush's leadership abilities from a newly disabled veteran.  

RL intrudes, so I'll get back to this when I can.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#31 schoolpsycho

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 03:28 PM

Just chiming in, then leaving the discussion.

To me, if one has fought in a war, then they have every right to agree or disagree with fighting it, including changing their minds, because they were fighting it.

And those of us who have had family having to fight them, it can be hard to say whether it was right or wrong.

But, this is someone who's grieving. And I for one, won't judge her if she decides not to vote for someone who she feels helped to cause it.

sp
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#32 WildChildCait

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 03:29 PM

Drew,
I will not speak for Nonny - she is quite capable of doing so herself.
Neither is this about 'yielding'  as you seem to believe

Quote

Dear Nonny and Chaddee: You have cut me to the quick. I cannot withstand the impeccable logic with which you land each blow to my admittedly oversized ego. I yield the floor to you both.
This is about the guidelines applying to everyone.

You cannot chide Nonny for wrongly using words if you proceed to do her the same disfavor.
What is good for her, is good for  you.
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#33 Anakam

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 03:29 PM

Nonny, on Sep 7 2004, 08:07 PM, said:

Okay, next time you tell me to call you crazy, I won't call you crazy. 
Erm, that was sort of my reaction too, with 'sort of' being tossed in there because I've seen 'call me crazy' and like phrases used rhetorically.

But really, it's hard to tell how the person is using it without reading intent into the post.  :)

On the soldier, uh... I'm guess I'm confused.  From a (brief) look at the article, it looks like he said 'Don't vote for Bush' in a letter... so there's no speaking out against superior officers in personal correspondence home?  I absolutely understand that sort of thing on duty and just conversation with fellow Armed Forces personnel, but I don't quite get that.

edit:  I could have saved myself most of a post if I'd just waited, because then it would have been what Chaddee said.  Anyway, I'm still confused about the speaking out thing.

Edited by Anakam, 07 September 2004 - 03:31 PM.

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#34 Nonny

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 03:36 PM

Drew, on Sep 7 2004, 08:20 PM, said:

Allow me to step back onto the floor to clarify something:

Nonny wrote:

Quote

Apparently you don't mind speaking ill of the dead, as you did in a previous post. Are you over there, making sure that liberty and freedom is what's being fought for? I don't think so. He was there, discovering something quite different. He said so, you twisted his courageous words into, " No, he does not want us to think of him as being on a fool's crusade, and not just because he is dead and not currently thinking and being at all, but he does want us to know what the real deal is, and you can't take the truth, so you dishonor his memory. Shame on you.

I never spoke ill of the dead. I said that this soldier should be honored for his part in fighting for liberty. I honor his memory, I honor his service and the service of all those who fight in this war.

There. That's done.

You may now have the last word.
Okay.  One more before I have to go.  

Well, Drew, that's certainly better than saying, and I quote, "this young soldier wants us to think of him as being on a fool's crusade," as you did before.  He wanted no such thing.  

Nonny
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#35 Nonny

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 03:41 PM

Dang!  I really hate to go when this has just taken off, but go I must.  Carry on, everybody, and I'll check in when I get back, or maybe briefly before I leave.   :cool:

Nonny
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#36 nutmeg

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 04:56 PM

Pickles, concerning your comment about your husbands willingness to serve and your support. I honor and respect that. I just have problems with those who 'armchair' and rah-rah, then find better things to do than back up their own words. I found that difficult 30 -40 years ago and I do so now. No 'put-down' meant.

Nonny, you speak well for all of us vets of like-mind.

nutmeg

#37 Kimmer

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 06:05 PM

Nonny, on Sep 7 2004, 01:27 PM, said:

Pickles, on Sep 7 2004, 08:05 PM, said:

Would someone please tell me the history behind "truthout.org".

Not to discount the sister, but here in my little town we had a soldier die. He was proud to serve his country. He wrote letters and emails home to many folks around here telling everyone how he felt, how he supported Pres. Bush and the war. His family gave interviews to that effect after he died, and at his memorial service here in town (held outdoors to handle the crowd of people who came).

Now - now, the mom and sis are talking out and doing a Kerry commercial because they hate Bush. I feel badly for them, it's rough to lose a son/brother (I know, my brother was only 38 when he died); but to me they are dishonoring his death and his memory by their actions.

So that leads me to wonder about this sister as well.

nutmeg, you asked about people being willing to serve. My husband is over the age they would take, otherwise he would have joined and gone - and done so with my blessings.

Pickles
I'm sure that there are many men and women in uniform who believe in their C-I-C.  I know that there are many others who don't, but will follow his orders anyway.  The article above tells about one of them.  

Whether or not a particular soldier was proud to serve, his or her grieving loved ones have the right to express their own feelings and beliefs.  Many Americans don't want their loved ones to join up these days.  Many support their loved ones' decisions to serve.  There are many sides to this, but the one I know best is the one I hear at my VAMC whenever a newly disabled veteran gets reminded that he or she is no longer on active duty and may speak out at will.  I have not yet heard good about Bush from a newly disabled veteran.  I have not heard any confidence in Bush's leadership abilities from a newly disabled veteran.  

RL intrudes, so I'll get back to this when I can.  

Nonny
All very well, but I see a different perspective coming from the vets in my town. They are very supportive of Bush and the war. FWIW, we have many friends who are over in Iraq, or serving in other places. They are there because they believe in this country, and some because of 9/11 and GW Bush.

And I've still not seen an answer to my query:

Would someone please tell me the history behind "truthout.org".

For clarification: Who runs it? Who owns it? I only took a quick glance and I came away thinking it was pretty biased in one direction ... so in order for me to even give credit to the article, I need to know the background and history of the site.

nutmeg, no put down taken. You asked, and I answered because I thought you wanted to know on a personal basis. :)

#38 Bouree57

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 01:36 AM

Nonny, on Sep 7 2004, 09:35 AM, said:

Bouree57, on Sep 7 2004, 12:49 AM, said:

It's not fair that young men and women will die there, but they are serving the cause of liberty and it's a damn shame they don't all know it.
The point that the young soldier made before he died is that he was NOT serving the cause of liberty and it's a damn shame you can't see it.  

Nonny
Maybe it's just a difference in opinion. I would prefer you didn't take this discussion to a personal level. I don't believe I did and I would prefer you extended me the same courtesy.

Saddam Hussein murdered 300,000 of his own people. Liberating them does serve the cause for freedom.

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#39 Godeskian

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 02:28 AM

You may feel that's true, you may even be right, but the soldier in the link apparently didn't feel that way. Is his opinion not equally valid given that he was in the thick of it?

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#40 G1223

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 09:24 AM

I am sorry the soldier is dead.   I simply do not agree with his or his sister's opinion. I keep thinking that folks who want peace want it be appeasing guys like Saddam.

These are the folks who say we needed the UN's appoval. Yet Al Gore said no we did not  he hsaid the cease fire agreement allowed for the shooting to begin without warning if Saddam did not cooperate with the inspectors and the other rules of the cease fire.

Bush still went to the UN to appease those who wanted to hear the UN speak. Bush did not need to he had the agreement right there before him  he did  invoke it. he asked congress for a vote on a use of force. They approved it.

Basically I feel the anti war crowd would still be crying foul if all these bodies were moving with the US  in means of support.
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