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Obituaries Dead Soldier Politics

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#41 Ogami

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 10:12 AM

Let me get this straight-- We're to assume that there are no soldiers in Iraq or elsewhere who don't like Bush and wouldn't want their relatives to vote for him? And that when such a soldier, who has since had his life taken from him, expresses such a view, it's news?

That's not news. What is news is when the Democrat party seeks to use the death of soldiers to gain partisan political advantage. Grieving this soldier's death I can understand, for the Democrat Party officials to exploit his death for their own personal power, their own personal wealth, is the true story.

Had a President Gore initiated military action against Iraq in 2003, we wouldn't be seeing this soldier's death being used for partisan purposes. We would instead be a nation united in purpose, as we were in WWII.

Instead we have gleeful Democrat party officials, scouring for such testimonials, eagerly counting up the casualties. I know they yearn to return to power, but it would be a touch more tasteful were the Democrat party, Democrat officials, and Democrat leaders less enthusiastic about the deaths of soldiers. Why do they enjoy it so much?

-Ogami

#42 Kosh

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 03:34 PM

Ogami, on Sep 8 2004, 10:12 AM, said:

Let me get this straight-- We're to assume that there are no soldiers in Iraq or elsewhere who don't like Bush and wouldn't want their relatives to vote for him? And that when such a soldier, who has since had his life taken from him, expresses such a view, it's news?

That's not news. What is news is when the Democrat party seeks to use the death of soldiers to gain partisan political advantage. Grieving this soldier's death I can understand, for the Democrat Party officials to exploit his death for their own personal power, their own personal wealth, is the true story.

Had a President Gore initiated military action against Iraq in 2003, we wouldn't be seeing this soldier's death being used for partisan purposes. We would instead be a nation united in purpose, as we were in WWII.

Instead we have gleeful Democrat party officials, scouring for such testimonials, eagerly counting up the casualties. I know they yearn to return to power, but it would be a touch more tasteful were the Democrat party, Democrat officials, and Democrat leaders less enthusiastic about the deaths of soldiers. Why do they enjoy it so much?

-Ogami
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#43 nutmeg

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 05:04 PM

Umm back to the poor man's last request. May he rest in peace. If my brother had sent me such a note, I would pray for the strength to honor my loved one's last wishes just as she did.

There can be honor in dissent, folks. IMHO, patriotism doesn't mean goosestepping behind each other. Nor does it mean that we must demonize each other in our disagreements. I'm a newbie, I hope I haven't stepped out of line here by posting this. But for what's its worth, whether I agreed with my brother or not, I would hope I could honor his last wishes.

peace,
nutmeg

#44 GiGi

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 10:57 PM

^ Cool post Nutmeg.   :cool:
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#45 Bouree57

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 02:27 AM

Cyberhippie, on Sep 8 2004, 02:28 AM, said:

You may feel that's true, you may even be right, but the soldier in the link apparently didn't feel that way. Is his opinion not equally valid given that he was in the thick of it?
I'm not sure I quite get your point. I heard his opinion and voiced mine. The two opinions are opposite and opposing. Does that mean I don't respect his right to have his opinion? No and I don't believe that I've said anything that expresses that sentiment.

I'm saddened by his death and that he didn't realize that he was very much serving the cause of liberty though he didn't IMO understand it. I don't just believe that because I support the war in Iraq.

I believe that because anyone who puts on that uniform and steps into a battle zone because his President ordered it, is serving his country. Our goals are liberty and freedom. We want that for ourselves and we want that for others. It may not take the same form for other countries that it takes for us. But if it serves the people of those countries, I count it a success and liberty served. It's just that black and white to me.

-- B
My words but a whisper, your deafness a shout!
I may make you feel but I can't make you think.
(from Thick as a Brick, Jethro Tull)

He who made kittens put snakes in the grass.
He's a lover of life but a player of pawns.
(from Bungle in the Jungle--War Child, JT)

#46 Bouree57

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 03:00 AM

nutmeg, on Sep 8 2004, 05:04 PM, said:

Umm back to the poor man's last request. May he rest in peace. If my brother had sent me such a note, I would pray for the strength to honor my loved one's last wishes just as she did.

There can be honor in dissent, folks. IMHO, patriotism doesn't mean goosestepping behind each other. Nor does it mean that we must demonize each other in our disagreements. I'm a newbie, I hope I haven't stepped out of line here by posting this. But for what's its worth, whether I agreed with my brother or not, I would hope I could honor his last wishes.

peace,
nutmeg
My late brother is a veteran as well. Were he to know that my mother and my sister were voting for Kerry, he'd not be happy about it. But he served his time to give us freedom here at home. I don't believe he'd want to take my mother or my sister's freedom of choice from them. If he were here, he'd be talking up a storm but he'd vote his way and let her vote her way. For what it's worth, that's just his perspective.

I respect this soldier's right to express how he feels to his sister but I just disagree that he wasn't fighting for liberty.

The Vietnam war wasn't a war that was very accepted here in the states either. Should those soldiers feel that they weren't serving the cause of liberty? I should hope not. As controversial as that war was, even John Kerry feels he was a war hero because he put on the uniform and served his country. What did we gain from Vietnam that is any less that what we've gained in Iraq?

-- B
My words but a whisper, your deafness a shout!
I may make you feel but I can't make you think.
(from Thick as a Brick, Jethro Tull)

He who made kittens put snakes in the grass.
He's a lover of life but a player of pawns.
(from Bungle in the Jungle--War Child, JT)

#47 Drew

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 08:24 AM

Bouree57, on Sep 9 2004, 03:00 AM, said:

. . . even John Kerry feels he was a war hero . . .
(He just doesn't think anyone else was.)
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#48 nutmeg

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 10:23 AM

Ah Drew, that looks like a cheap shot. Kerry quote, please, to back that up?

nutmeg

#49 Drew

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 10:28 AM

nutmeg, on Sep 9 2004, 10:23 AM, said:

Ah Drew, that looks like a cheap shot. Kerry quote, please, to back that up?
It doesn't just look like a cheap shot. It is.  :cool:

But if you want backup I refer you to Kerry's 1971 Senate testimony or the foreword of his book (if you can call it a book--it's really a long pamphlet) "The New Soldier."
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#50 nutmeg

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 11:02 AM

[QUOTE]The Vietnam war wasn't a war that was very accepted here in the states either. Should those soldiers feel that they weren't serving the cause of liberty? I should hope not. As controversial as that war was, even John Kerry feels he was a war hero because he put on the uniform and served his country. What did we gain from Vietnam that is any less that what we've gained in Iraq?


You put on the uniform for the cause of liberty, sure. But, not every engagement we have gotten into served the cause of liberty. History has clarified that. Many of us who served during Vietnam later came to understand that what may have begun as a war in the cause of liberty was really not. If a leader has to lie (e.g., Johnson, Gulf of Tonkin) to escalate a conflict/start a war, how noble is that? Is that action serving liberty?  Simply put, our leaders can be wrong, have their own agendas, and  it is not patriotism to march behind their flag. That behavior,  IMHO,  is to support wrongful action  to the ultimate detriment of our country. As citizens of our country and of the world, it is our duty to hold our elected leaders accountable for what is done supposedly in our name - not in the name or  financial gain of a select few. Our world standing and over-all policy interests at home and the world dictate that we hold our leaders accountable for actions. Obviously, our country is divided (for many reasons) on who is to lead this country and what goals we should be working for - now and in terms of what we are leaving to future generations. Therefore, it's not really surprising that these goals, how we are to obtain them, and who is the best able to lead us toward the goals we think are important are hot topics of debate this election year.  I will say, that in my opinion, the differences between Kerry and Bush are pretty clear. One man is a black and white thinker; the other sees the shades of gray and possibilites between the two polarities. Thus, some people see Bush as decisive, others see his behavior as a stubborn (to be kind to his intellect) refusal to adapt when situations change. Kerry gets the waffle and flip-flop treatment when other see his adapting to changing situations and information as a strength in a fast changing world.
So basically, what we got is people in this country deeply divided because we operate from two entirely different world views - or ways of approaching situations/reality. It will be interesting to see how our country resolves this conflict and where we will go from here into the future.

Ok, you can wake up now, I'm through pontificating.  :D

nutmeg

#51 nutmeg

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 11:03 AM

Double post - sorry. Deleted content.

nutmeg.

Edited by nutmeg, 09 September 2004 - 11:19 AM.


#52 nutmeg

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 11:12 AM

Hi,
Heard Kerry's testimony then and excerpts recently - also read his book. He told the truth. I was still in the Army then. Alot of us weren't proud of the behavior of some our fellow soldiers and thought such behavior reflected badly on us and our country. Thankfully, McNamara fairly recently came clean on his role as Secretary of Defense in overall responsibility for a number of awful things that occured during those years.
Should the whistle blowers of the Iraqi prison scandals forget about any future policatl aspirations? Will they be seen as traitors in the future because conscience and sense of morality over-rode blind loyalty?

nutmeg

#53 Bouree57

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 02:42 AM

nutmeg, on Sep 9 2004, 11:02 AM, said:

Bouree57, on Posted on Sep 9 2004, 03:00 AM, said:

The Vietnam war wasn't a war that was very accepted here in the states either. Should those soldiers feel that they weren't serving the cause of liberty? I should hope not. As controversial as that war was, even John Kerry feels he was a war hero because he put on the uniform and served his country. What did we gain from Vietnam that is any less that what we've gained in Iraq?


You put on the uniform for the cause of liberty, sure. But, not every engagement we have gotten into served the cause of liberty. History has clarified that. Many of us who served during Vietnam later came to understand that what may have begun as a war in the cause of liberty was really not. If a leader has to lie (e.g., Johnson, Gulf of Tonkin) to escalate a conflict/start a war, how noble is that? Is that action serving liberty?  Simply put, our leaders can be wrong, have their own agendas, and  it is not patriotism to march behind their flag. That behavior,  IMHO,  is to support wrongful action  to the ultimate detriment of our country. As citizens of our country and of the world, it is our duty to hold our elected leaders accountable for what is done supposedly in our name - not in the name or  financial gain of a select few. Our world standing and over-all policy interests at home and the world dictate that we hold our leaders accountable for actions. Obviously, our country is divided (for many reasons) on who is to lead this country and what goals we should be working for - now and in terms of what we are leaving to future generations.
How different is Nixon's insistance on peace with honor different than Bush's cause to rid the Mideast of a brutal dictator who murders his own people? IMO, very different. But somehow that war is suddenly honorable and this one not?

But I'll bet my life that Kerry still feels as though he was fighting for liberty in Vietnam. He uses that as his platform to denegrate Cheney and Bush for not serving in the war. He certainly considers his time in uniform as serving his country. But what result did we get from Vietnam?

There is a vast difference between Nixon's goals in Vietnam and Bush's goals in Iraq. No amount of talk about so called lies will change my mind. We needed to go there and we need to finally, after 8 years turning the other cheek, put Saddam to task for his failures to comply with sanctions. We did just that.

The situation is now complicated by terrorists. I'm not happy about that. But given the choice, I'd rather fight the war on terror there than here.


Quote

I will say, that in my opinion, the differences between Kerry and Bush are pretty clear. One man is a black and white thinker; the other sees the shades of gray and possibilites between the two polarities.


I'm pretty sure we would disagree about who is a black and white thinker and who is thinking about possibilities. I'm just saying is all.  ;)

-- B
My words but a whisper, your deafness a shout!
I may make you feel but I can't make you think.
(from Thick as a Brick, Jethro Tull)

He who made kittens put snakes in the grass.
He's a lover of life but a player of pawns.
(from Bungle in the Jungle--War Child, JT)

#54 Bouree57

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 02:47 AM

nutmeg, on Sep 9 2004, 11:12 AM, said:

Heard Kerry's testimony then and excerpts recently - also read his book. He told the truth. I was still in the Army then. Alot of us weren't proud of the behavior of some our fellow soldiers and thought such behavior reflected badly on us and our country. Thankfully, McNamara fairly recently came clean on his role as Secretary of Defense in overall responsibility for a number of awful things that occured during those years.
Should the whistle blowers of the Iraqi prison scandals forget about any future policatl aspirations? Will they be seen as traitors in the future because conscience and sense of morality over-rode blind loyalty?
No. But for me the difference is that those people did blow the whistle. Vietnam is different IMO because so many claim that war crimes happened but nothing was done about it at that time.

If I have any beef with Kerry about anything that happened 30 years ago, it's his witnessing war crimes and not reporting them.

-- B
My words but a whisper, your deafness a shout!
I may make you feel but I can't make you think.
(from Thick as a Brick, Jethro Tull)

He who made kittens put snakes in the grass.
He's a lover of life but a player of pawns.
(from Bungle in the Jungle--War Child, JT)

#55 Nonny

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 08:35 PM

Bouree57, on Sep 9 2004, 08:00 AM, said:

My late brother is a veteran as well. Were he to know that my mother and my sister were voting for Kerry, he'd not be happy about it. But he served his time to give us freedom here at home. I don't believe he'd want to take my mother or my sister's freedom of choice from them. If he were here, he'd be talking up a storm but he'd vote his way and let her vote her way. For what it's worth, that's just his perspective.
It wasn't just his perspective, it was his duty.  We took an oath to protect the Constitution when we joined up.  Nobody relieved us of that duty when we stood down.  Your brother was a good man, to respect the rights of others to think, believe and vote differently from himself.  

Nonny
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

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#56 Nonny

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 08:39 PM

nutmeg, on Sep 9 2004, 04:12 PM, said:

Heard Kerry's testimony then and excerpts recently - also read his book. He told the truth. I was still in the Army then. Alot of us weren't proud of the behavior of some our fellow soldiers and thought such behavior reflected badly on us and our country. Thankfully, McNamara fairly recently came clean on his role as Secretary of Defense in overall responsibility for a number of awful things that occured during those years.
Should the whistle blowers of the Iraqi prison scandals forget about any future policatl aspirations? Will they be seen as traitors in the future because conscience and sense of morality over-rode blind loyalty?
Thought provoking.  Excellent post.  

Nonny
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#57 nutmeg

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 12:30 AM

Thank you, Nonny.

nutmeg

#58 Bouree57

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 03:15 AM

Nonny, on Sep 10 2004, 08:35 PM, said:

Bouree57, on Sep 9 2004, 08:00 AM, said:

My late brother is a veteran as well. Were he to know that my mother and my sister were voting for Kerry, he'd not be happy about it. But he served his time to give us freedom here at home. I don't believe he'd want to take my mother or my sister's freedom of choice from them. If he were here, he'd be talking up a storm but he'd vote his way and let her vote her way. For what it's worth, that's just his perspective.
It wasn't just his perspective, it was his duty.  We took an oath to protect the Constitution when we joined up.  Nobody relieved us of that duty when we stood down.  Your brother was a good man, to respect the rights of others to think, believe and vote differently from himself.  

Nonny
Yes he was.  ;)

-- B
My words but a whisper, your deafness a shout!
I may make you feel but I can't make you think.
(from Thick as a Brick, Jethro Tull)

He who made kittens put snakes in the grass.
He's a lover of life but a player of pawns.
(from Bungle in the Jungle--War Child, JT)

#59 Gina

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 02:41 PM

Isn't it the soldiers right to join the military? I'm pretty sure there hasn't been a draft (that I know of) so this young man would have had to join of his own free will, right?

Now, maybe he did change his mind after being there, which is for sure his God given right. Same goes for his sister in writing the article.

I sympathize with her and her family, but maybe he didn't truly know what he was fighting for until her got there and saw everything.

Yes, this war was started after the 11th. And maybe it has gone of track as far as now we're freeing the Islamic people instead of fightling for our own freedom. But isn't it good that we can do both? Isn't that what this country is about?

The soldier is honered for his work in fighting for his country, no matter what his opinion on the president is. He was fighting, yes with doubt, but he was still fighting either way. And that is what I see.
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#60 Rhea

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 03:00 PM

Bouree57, on Sep 6 2004, 04:49 PM, said:

Congress saw and agreed.

-- B
Actually, no, Congress did *not* see accurate intelligence. There are a number of people on both sides of the fence who say they would have voted NO on the war had they seen accurate intelligence and been fully aware that there were likely no WMD's in Iraq.
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Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH



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