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The War That's Here

Iraq War Bush

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#1 Kevin Street

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 10:59 AM

George W. Bush said:

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All the decades of deceit and cruelty have now reached an end. Saddam Hussein and his sons must leave Iraq within 48 hours. Their refusal to do so will result in military conflict commenced at a time of our choosing.

I have never been so disgusted with the United States.

Not the American people. Not the laws and principles of the United States of America. Just the leaders, the individuals who are charged with the responsibility of guiding their nation in a responsible and intelligent manner, and who (with the possible exception of Colin Powell) are absolutely failing to do so.

What right does the United States have to force the leader of another country to resign? UN Resolutions 678 and 687? That's crap. Those resolutions are intended to stop Iraq from becoming a military threat to other nations. They come into effect if there's proof that Iraq is hiding weapons of mass destruction, and is a demonstratable threat to other nations. They do not give America the right to threaten other countries and give arbitrary orders. And the United States has failed to make the case that Iraq has suddenly become a serious threat. The weapons inspectors haven't found a smoking gun. Iraq is a corrupt, evil place, yes - but so is North Korea. Hell, Russia is ten times more likely to give WMDs to terrorists. Are the marines heading there next?

It's a huge, steaming pile of crap, and it pisses me off! Why has George W. Bush put us all in this position? When the war begins (and it will begin), I don't want the US to lose. I don't want people to die. But I fear for what happens next when they win.

This Bush Doctrine of preemptive war is wrong. It's more dangerous than a thousand Osama Bin Ladens, and it will put the United States on an extemely dangerous path if they keep on in this way. Iraq may fall, but what about North Korea? Syria? Iran? Libya? Cuba? Saudi Arabia? Pakistan? China? Russia? Three quarters of Africa? When would the preemptive wars end? How can the rest of us support a country that acts in such an increasingly aggressive manner?

Damn it, I don't want to see the United States fall under the weight of its own stupidity! Can't they see what happens when countries begin to build empires? No one can take on the world alone.

So have your war if you must, Mr. President. I hope you win it quickly, with a minimum of death and destruction. But let it end there. No more stupidity!
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#2 Godeskian

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 11:14 AM

It's a very complex situation no doubt, but right now, Bush has nowhere else to go but into Iraq

If he were to stand up and say that they weren't going into Iraq, that UN rules were more important than the US, that they are going to be bullied off their track by threat fo frensch veto, then he'll lose whatever political credibility he has left.

Ultimately, George Walker Bush is in the business of getting himself reelected, and he has chosen the role of a steadyhanded, steely eyed leader with which he hopes to achieve that. Time, i gues will tell if he was right.

But unlike the US goverment, i don't believe the US will be welcomed as liberators, i expect them to be attacked by the Iraqi civilians who believe (rightly or wrongly) that the US is coming to conquer.

And i wonder what will happen if the troops start firing at the civilians firing at them, the media will tear them to shreds if they do, the bullets will tear them to shreds if they don't.

to quote, and so it begins....

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#3 Kevin Street

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 11:32 AM

But that's the thing, Gode - when the bombing and the shooting stops, the Iraqi people will probably be overjoyed at being liberated from their oppressive dictatorship (And who can blame them?), so the first war will be a clear win for the US.

But it's like what happens with alcoholics, the first drink is great. They like it so much, they have another, and another... And so on, until a process that started out fine becomes a huge problem.

Or to put it another way, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

I want the US to win this, quickly and cleanly. But if they do win, I'm afraid of what they might do next.

Edited by Kevin Street, 18 March 2003 - 11:56 AM.

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#4 Blondie

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 11:36 AM

Intel Analyst from the first Gulf War steps in...

I'm putting $5.00, a bag of Cheetos and a grape Sparky on the table that says the bulk of Iraqi population will gladly welcome us with open arms.  Especially since we won't back an independent Kurd state.

Here's my call...boy I could be wrong, but I don't see much different this time around except that the Iraqi army is nowhere near what it was in 1991.
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#5 Blondie

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 11:38 AM

Kevin Street, on Mar 18 2003, 02:29 AM, said:

But it's like what happens with alcoholics, the first drink is great. They like it so much, they have another, and another... And so on, until a process that started out fine becomes a huge problem.

Or to put it another way, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

I want the US to win this, quickly and cleanly. But if do win, I'm afraid of what they might do next.
I wouldn't sweat it.
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#6 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 11:46 AM

{{{{{{{{Kevin}}}}}}}}}}

I'll just say I agree and leave it at that.


:(
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#7 BizzyD17

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 11:55 AM

The UN is basicly over biased old f***ers with nothing better to do with there lives,so I say throw the UN out the window.Why does the United States need to ask the UN permission,last time I checked were not called the United Nations States of America.

I'm sick of the whole Anti-War protesters,They'd rather see the people of Iraq live under the rule of a ruthless dictator then see that man be taken out of goverment rule,and a new and hopefully a more fair and equal goverment put in it's place.

Also no one really wants to go to war,it's just a matter of accepting the fact that we are going to war and getting over it and going on with your life instead of constantly worrying about it.

#8 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 12:01 PM

And who died and made the US government God?

And where was "god" during the years the Taliban atrocities before 9-11?  Oh that's right, no oil or other economic/political reason to interfere so it was all hands off.  Never mind that the self appointed "god" put the Taliban in power in the first place.

And where was "god" during the Iran controversy?  Oh yeah that's right, accepting aid from IRAQ and GIVING them military equipment.  No problem with human rights there was there.  And then of course KUWAIT has *such* a great record on human rights but hey, it was the oil thing again so, down with Iraq back in 89.

The hypocrisy is sickening.
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#9 Kevin Street

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 12:05 PM

But BizzyD17, look at it this way - what if the roles were reversed?

What if an incredibly powerful Iraq, equipped with the biggest, deadliest army in the world, was ordering George Bush and his family to leave the USA? What if Saddam Hussein wanted to invade America and change its government to one that he liked better? That wouldn't be fair at all, would it?

Yes, the comparison isn't exact - Saddam Hussein is an evil dictator, while George Bush is a democratically elected leader - but the basic unfairness is the same. One country can't arbitrarily throw its weight around like this. It's not right.

And you shouldn't just accept it, either. The war may be inevitable, but George Bush's reelection is not.
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#10 Blondie

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 12:23 PM

This is my angle on it...

I really wonder if it's a matter of hypocrisy or a matter of the average American can't handle solid subjects?  Look at the picture we've painted of our Founding Fathers...all godliness and benevolence , when it just wasn't so.

I think the greatest factors in this whole mess are: oil, clearing up an unstable mess, the absolute sluggishness that the UN has always displayed, and the fact that Hussein tried to have Bush Sr. assassinated.

Oil: Iraq, IIRC, is the second biggest oil producer in the world...in the hands of a nutcase.

Instability: Uncle Saddam is mad.  He's got big toys and he's said in the past he wants to dominate the Middle East.  We helped put him there, seems it's our job to take him out.  But that's just me...

The UN: like all politics, the aims of the UN shift with what the present delagates want.  It changes over time, and makes the UN look schizophrenic in history.

Big Daddy had a contract out on his head:  that's kinda personal, but hey...

The US government, Bush or whoever, probably feels the average Joe can't handle these concepts in toto.  It's better to trot out the rhetoric so that people can respond emotionally rather attempt it rationally.  Do I sound cynical?  Let me tell ya'll something: see all those protesters out there in the streets of America screaming their heads off to no avail?  Those rallies (organization, flyers, etc) were probably paid for with CIA funds, just like the recent Turkish election was thrown in our favor with CIA funds.  Happens more than you think...trust me.  Bush has gone out of his way in the past to make Liberals look like idiots and he's doing it again.  He knows the protest isn't really about the war, but against him.  It's always been against him.  He comes off as an idiot, but you know the old saying :the dumber people think you are, the more surprised they'll be when you kill them.

Like those gun control assholes shut up after Bush got in office...notice that?  He said he wouldn't put up with it...Bush takes hard hits at the Liberals and makes them look like monkeys.  When this war is won, when we rebuild Iraq (just like we rebuilt Western Europe), when  we're benefitting economically from the whole deal, Bush will come out looking like a hero and America will love him for it.  Oh...wait and see...

It's no more hypocritical then We The People allow it to be.  We enjoy a standard of living unprecedented in history...but we really don't want to know what it takes to achieve this: the backbiting, the wheeling-dealing, the oppression of lesser nations...we don't want to know.  We would go ballistic if our comfy little lifestyle...which allows us to throw mud at Bush BTW...collapsed, at collapse it would if we started playing fair like the rest of the world thinks we should.  Are you prepared to live under the same standards as the mean...the ol' lowercase sigma for you stats rats?  If not, then don't worry about it.  Let someone else handle the dirty work while you watch reality shows and football or whatever numbs your brain.  

When we sit back and let our kids sleep through civics class and then act shocked when they don't have the first clue how the government works, when we tell them to vote then don't vote ourselves, when we'd rather watch football then C-SPAN or CNN,  we set an example...not only to them, but we send a message to Capitol Hill that we'd rather not know the truth of the matter.

Edited by TrancesHuggyPillow, 18 March 2003 - 12:26 PM.

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#11 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 12:34 PM

There is, unfortunately, much truth in what you say.

But I categorically disagree with the following:

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Like those gun control assholes shut up after Bush got in office...notice that? He said he wouldn't put up with it...Bush takes hard hits at the Liberals and makes them look like monkeys.

While it's true that liberals in this country need to get a collective spine (I'm talking about political leadership), I don't give Bush credit for this.  You could see the spinelessness back in the day of the Anita Hill hearings involving Clarence Thomas (I watched the WHOLE thing).  The Republicans went after Ms. Hill skillfully and ruthlessly without coming across as bullies.

When Mr. Thomas' turn came, the Democrats backed off from his indignation within MINUTES of the beginning of their examination.  This is not Bush's doing but the product of the Democrat party not realizing that they need their own distinct identity to really compete today.

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When this war is won, when we rebuild Iraq (just like we rebuilt Western Europe), when we're benefitting economically from the whole deal, Bush will come out looking like a hero and America will love him for it. Oh...wait and see...

Yeah just like what happened the last time with Iraq right?  Oh wait.  Bush Sr. LOST that re election didn't he.  

I find it very hard to swallow many people actually buy the bull that Bush is spewing about the motivation behind all of this.

The world is filled with madmen.  The United States doesn't go after all of them.  They only interfere when it benefits (in the eyes of the government) THEM.  They aren't doing this to help the people of Iraq, they are doing it to gain an advantage in who controls oil in that area of the world and to try and increase political power there.  If Kuwait wants to mistreat its people, fine, in the eyes of the government.  Lettem.

If the Taliban wants to commit atrocities?  The policy in this country's government's eyes was to lettem, UNTIL they come knocking on "our" door and then all bets are off.

This is my view here and, in keeping with Kathy's wise words, NONE of this is intended as an attack on anyone (whether they agree or not) on this board.  I am sickened by the Bush administration but I also know that reasonable minds can differ.

Lil

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 18 March 2003 - 12:42 PM.

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#12 Kevin Street

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 12:44 PM

Actually, it isn't the hypocrisy that bothers me. Sometimes, it seems like our mad old world only survives because of hypocrisy. ;)

What scares me is that Bush really seems to believe what he is saying.
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#13 Blondie

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 12:45 PM

George Carlin had a routine that included his opinion of the phrase "it's the quiet ones you gotta watch."  As he put it, if you're in a bar, are you going to watch the guy in the corner calmly reading a book, or the guy near the door banging a machete screaming "I'm gonna kill the next M___F___ that walks in here!!!"

Likewise, if locked in a room with 30 crazies, wouldn't you keep your eye on the only one or two with weapons that could kill you?
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#14 Blondie

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 12:46 PM

Kevin Street, on Mar 18 2003, 03:41 AM, said:

What scares me is that Bush really seems to believe what he is saying.
Nahhh.....again, don't let it scare you.  :wacko:
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#15 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 12:51 PM

TrancesHuggyPillow, on Mar 18 2003, 09:42 AM, said:

Likewise, if locked in a room with 30 crazies, wouldn't you keep your eye on the only one or two with weapons that could kill you?
The problem with this is that it's no secret that Hussein has had weapons.  Why NOW?

Oh wait, Bush is slipping in the polls.  Let's have a nice little war to boost things.

Again, sickening to me.  Absolutely sickening.  He makes his father look like freaking Mother Theresa.
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#16 Blondie

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 12:52 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Mar 18 2003, 03:31 AM, said:

While it's true that liberals in this country need to get a collective spine (I'm talking about political leadership), I don't give Bush credit for this.  You could see the spinelessness back in the day of the Anita Hill hearings involving Clarence Thomas (I watched the WHOLE thing).  The Republicans went after Ms. Hill skillfully and ruthlessly without coming across as bullies.

When Mr. Thomas' turn came, the Democrats backed off from his indignation within MINUTES of the beginning of their examination.  This is not Bush's doing but the product of the Democrat party not realizing that they need their own distinct identity to really compete today.



Yeah just like what happened the last time with Iraq right?  Oh wait.  Bush Sr. LOST that re election didn't he. 
Ok, not that I'm a conspiracy nut or anything, but here's food for thought.  When's the last time we had a damned good school shooting?  I mean one where a kid comes in and blasts 5-10 stuents and a teacher or two?  Remember those?  They used to happen all the time...during the Clinton Administration.   Hmmm.

I certainly won't disagree with you about Liberal leadership needing to grow a spine.  That's for certain.  However, Bush is the kind of guy who says "This is how it is, like it or shove it."  They backed down.

In regards to Bush, Sr., he lost reelection because people weren't nuts about his domestic policies...something they could see and experience as opposed to his foreign policy.  Wow, sounds like Bush, Jr...
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#17 Blondie

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 12:54 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Mar 18 2003, 03:48 AM, said:

TrancesHuggyPillow, on Mar 18 2003, 09:42 AM, said:



Likewise, if locked in a room with 30 crazies, wouldn't you keep your eye on the only one or two with weapons that could kill you?
The problem with this is that it's no secret that Hussein has had weapons.  Why NOW?

Oh wait, Bush is slipping in the polls.  Let's have a nice little war to boost things.

Again, sickening to me.  Absolutely sickening.  He makes his father look like freaking Mother Theresa.
Beats me...go ask the UN Security Council...they passed a resolution they had no balls to enforce.
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#18 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 01:00 PM

And who's measure was that *really*?  IMO the US.  Period.

Yeah the UN is pretty ineffectual but the US used it to impose rules on Hussein that they knew damened well wouldn't be followed and then the years passed.  And now here we are.

The UN's ineffectualness does not in ANY way *in my view* decrease the hypocrisy of the US government in this case.

Again, my view (on which not, I need to head to bed).

Lil
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#19 Blondie

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 01:04 PM

Here's something for ya when you get up...cuz I gotta go beddy-bye as well.

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And who's measure was that *really*? IMO the US. Period.

Yeah the UN is pretty ineffectual but the US used it to impose rules on Hussein that they knew damened well wouldn't be followed and then the years passed. And now here we are.

The UN's ineffectualness does not in ANY way *in my view* decrease the hypocrisy of the US government in this case.

Go do the research and find out how many resolutions made by the UN were started by the US.  You might be amazed.  So what's different now?  We've got vested interests?  Nothing different.  Not at all.
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#20 Lina

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Posted 18 March 2003 - 01:44 PM

I'm only chimming in to comment on this, and then I'm out of this thread...

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Kevin Street:
But that's the thing, Gode - when the bombing and the shooting stops, the Iraqi people will probably be overjoyed at being liberated from their oppressive dictatorship (And who can blame them?), so the first war will be a clear win for the US.

Be cautious with such predictions, please. I'm Russian, my country lived under Stalin for years. He ruled with iron fist, keeping people in fear of being arrested for god only knows what. People disappeared and never appeared again, or appeared after tens of years. People could have been arrested for a joke, for a letter they received from aboard, for nationality, for being a relative of the "enemy of the nation"...

And yet, when Stalin died, the country cried. Literally. And it weren't tears of joy. My grandmother told me that people were crying on the streets, and where they worked. I have no reason to not believe my grandmother, especially because even now I hear many people saying that they miss Stalin's times. Even those people who lived in those times and know what price they had to pay for what they miss.

Dictators always have a strong following, I think - some go after them because of ideas, or because of money, but many people follow because of fear to disappear at night and never come back again. It is not their fault, it is a survival mechanism. Like Stockholm syndrome, if you will. And people in that bank in Stockholm weren't all that happy to be libertated, or so I heard.

OK, now I'm out of here.

Lina

Edited by Lina, 18 March 2003 - 03:54 PM.




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