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Does Religion play any part of who you'd vote for?

Election 2004 Religion

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Poll: Assuming you believe both Candidates to be Equally Qualified in all other fields, Would you vote for one over the Other based on Their religion or Lack there-of? (44 member(s) have cast votes)

Assuming you believe both Candidates to be Equally Qualified in all other fields, Would you vote for one over the Other based on Their religion or Lack there-of?

  1. Not at all, I'd look at the Issues/Platform. (24 votes [54.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 54.55%

  2. Not normally, but if they are bringing religion to the table in the issues they focus on, then yes. (14 votes [31.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.82%

  3. Neutral (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. Yes, on occasion, if equally qualified I'd look at their religion and what it means for their platform. (2 votes [4.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.55%

  5. Yes, always, I feel thats an important aspect of our Leaders and/or I have strong beliefs I feel should be on the table. (4 votes [9.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.09%

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#21 Delvo

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Posted 09 October 2004 - 07:38 AM

Quite simply, most abortions aren't partial birth, and you're using a law about that one procedure to make a false claim about others. In that particular procedure, the mother really gives birth, while a doctor kills the baby on the way out, so she isn't saved from any of the problems that would occur if she just gave birth without having the baby killed. For the mother's health and safety to be the cause for an abortion, we'd need to be talking about abortions in general, or just some other particular kind(s) of abortion in which it's relevant because the mother is prevented from having to give birth. But you're ACTING as if we were, when in fact we're only talking about one procedure which is no different from birth for the mother. It's like you're arguing about the use of braces based on something that you've heard can go wrong with root canal procedures.

#22 DWF

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Posted 09 October 2004 - 08:05 AM

I voted for "Not at all" as well, a candidate's religion is the last thing on my mind in the voting booth. ;)
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#23 Spectacles

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Posted 09 October 2004 - 08:40 AM

Delvo, on Oct 9 2004, 07:38 AM, said:

Quite simply, most abortions aren't partial birth, and you're using a law about that one procedure to make a false claim about others. In that particular procedure, the mother really gives birth, while a doctor kills the baby on the way out, so she isn't saved from any of the problems that would occur if she just gave birth without having the baby killed. For the mother's health and safety to be the cause for an abortion, we'd need to be talking about abortions in general, or just some other particular kind(s) of abortion in which it's relevant because the mother is prevented from having to give birth. But you're ACTING as if we were, when in fact we're only talking about one procedure which is no different from birth for the mother. It's like you're arguing about the use of braces based on something that you've heard can go wrong with root canal procedures.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


You lost me there. I'm not "ACTING" anyway. I was quoting from the text of the partial birth abortion ban passed by Congress last year and asking a question.

Bouree gave a link to a site that claims that exceptions are allowed when the health of the mother is threatened. Also on that site is a link to the bill itself, which, unless I'm misreading it, not only doesn't allow exceptions but explicitly states that such exceptions are unnecessary.

So, my question was/is this: Does the partial birth bill passed last year make exceptions for the mother's health or not? The site says it does, and some Bush supporters say it does so Kerry was dishonest when he said it did not. But the bill itself seems explicitly to rule out those exceptions--unless I'm misreading it. If the bill does rule out that exception, then Kerry wasn't lying about it.
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#24 Jid

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Posted 09 October 2004 - 10:48 AM

On the topic of the poll - I voted not at all, because ideally, in a secular state, all decisions and bills ought to be passed on secular grounds.

This is not to say that religious beliefs hold no sway - I am certain some people do vote in line with the teachings of their religion.  I also believe that religious and secular rationale have to be necessarily mutually exclusive.

To touch extremely briefly on a hot button issue in this thread - I think it's perfectly logical for both a secular person and a religious person to be, on some level, morally opposed to most forms of abortion on the grounds of value of human life - the language they use to express that value system may be different, but at the core, it's a value statement.

It becomes difficult when a politician begins to use religiously charged language in a secular forum - are they making religion a part of the debate?  I'm still undecided on that.  Part of me wonders how much of it is a language issue (ie. the way they're most comfortable expressing their rationale) and how much of it is truly trying to enforce a religious stance onto a secular proceeding.

I have no problems with a religious head of state, so long as they do not attempt to infringe on the religious/non-religious life of others.

#25 Bouree57

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Posted 09 October 2004 - 08:32 PM

Bold enhancements are mine and should answer your questions Specs.

Quote

CHAPTER 74--PARTIAL-BIRTH ABORTIONS

`Sec.

`1531. Partial-birth abortions prohibited.

`Sec. 1531. Partial-birth abortions prohibited

`(a) Any physician who, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly performs a partial-birth abortion and thereby kills a human fetus shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both. This subsection does not apply to a partial-birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself. This subsection takes effect 1 day after the enactment.
The link included in the quote of my post didn't work but I went back to the original link and managed to get there. I'm not sure why it didn't work. But whatever. :eh:

In any case, in the cases where it's necessary to perform a partial-birth abortion for the safety of the mother, it's because a full-term pregnancy puts her at risk or a greater risk.

But all those sections you quoted are why Congress felt the need for the ban in the first place.

-- B

edit to say that it's probably a full term pregnancy that puts the mother at risk.

Edited by Bouree57, 09 October 2004 - 08:37 PM.

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#26 Spectacles

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Posted 09 October 2004 - 08:40 PM

Ah! Thanks, Bouree. I could have sworn I read the whole thing, but like a ninny I missed the key part that I was wondering about.

Looks like Kerry was wrong about there not being a provision for cases in which the mother's life in endangered by late-term pregnancy. He's fair game on that point, then.
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#27 Bouree57

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Posted 09 October 2004 - 08:44 PM

Spectacles, on Oct 9 2004, 08:40 PM, said:

Ah! Thanks, Bouree. I could have sworn I read the whole thing, but like a ninny I missed the key part that I was wondering about.

Looks like Kerry was wrong about there not being a provision for cases in which the mother's life in endangered by late-term pregnancy. He's fair game on that point, then.
You're quite welcome.  :D

A politican caught up in spin?  :hehe:  It happens. On both sides of the fence. They need better researchers.

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I may make you feel but I can't make you think.
(from Thick as a Brick, Jethro Tull)

He who made kittens put snakes in the grass.
He's a lover of life but a player of pawns.
(from Bungle in the Jungle--War Child, JT)

#28 Nonny

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Posted 09 October 2004 - 10:35 PM

G1223, on Oct 9 2004, 02:34 AM, said:

Yes that evil thing.  Allowing kids to go to catholic schools. I mean they might just get a chance to learn something rather than feel good but learn nothing of some public schools. And Before you pitch that the money could be used to improve the public schools. Ask how much we already have pitched at those same public schools and it seems that they are not doing the job..

Then there are those shelters that have opened up to take care of the homeless. Darn that Salvation Army which operates as a a religious charity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, darn them indeed.  Want the inside scoop on how the Salvation Army "takes care of" the homeless?  Maybe after my surgery Tuesday.  I'm not up to it today.  

And as for getting a chance to learn something, I got it in 9th grade when my mom freed me from the hell that was Catholic school in my town and allowed me to attend the best public school system in my state.  Fortunately for me, she discovered that the crabby old nun she'd had for eighth grade was teaching English at the local Catholic girls high school and refused to allow me to go there.  THEN she discovered that Sister Baptista had been teaching eighth grade at my grade school and that I'd missed getting stuck with her by one year!  She'd been "retired" to the "old nuns home," ie, the Catholic girls high school!  So my education started in ninth grade.  Good thing for me that I taught myself to read, figured out algebra on my own, and was resilient enough to be puzzled rather than upset when nuns and lay teachers alike snarled at me, "you think you're SO SMART!"  I was a quiet, respectful child, and those hags had no cause to harass me.  But I was SO SMART, and that's a square peg situation at the kind of substandard poor excuse for a school that I had to attend.  

My point?  All public schools are not bad, and all Catholic schools are not good.  

Nonny
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#29 Nonny

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Posted 09 October 2004 - 10:45 PM

Delvo, on Oct 9 2004, 02:56 AM, said:

Nonny, on Oct 8 2004, 08:16 PM, said:

Funny, that's exactly how I feel about the supporters of the other guy.  Replace the name "Kerry" with "Bush" and I could have written this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Except that the extremes you see Bush's defenders going to to defend him and strike back at the other side are merely RESPONSES to the berserkity of the anti-Bush crowd and its inability to muster even a momemtary speck of honesty about the candidates or the issues. There are real, solid, sound bases for reasonable, rational criticism of Bush from both sides (and many of his current supporters have complained about him themselves before, since he's really not much of a conservative), but the crap being flung at him lately isn't among them, because that side forsook its own good, legitimate points in favor of the most extreme things they could come up with to scream regardless of validity.
Again, switch the names, correct for "conservative" and I could have written this.  

Nonny, on Oct 8 2004, 08:16 PM, said:

It's not Kerry who's trying to end abortion rights with no exception for women whose lives are at risk due to ectopic and other potentially fatal pregnancies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quote

There it goes again; Bush isn't doing that either. It's just another recitation of scripture (the Book of Kerry, chapter 2, verses 16 and 17).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I knew this about Bush years before Kerry threw his hat in the ring.

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#30 Nonny

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Posted 09 October 2004 - 10:50 PM

Bouree57, on Oct 9 2004, 06:42 AM, said:

Women who have been raped should know if they are pregnant before 3 months.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As opposed to all those other women who don't have a clue that they are pregnant until the second or even third trimester?  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#31 FnlPrblm

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Posted 10 October 2004 - 04:11 AM

So far, I agree with Lil, Thesis and Sierra (though I misplaced my vote.  Should be 2, not 1 for the very reasons Thesis and Lil pointed out).  :blush:

I however, (after reading a bit more of the posts) think that the problem isn't necessarily having agendas coincide with certain religions and their paths.  If both are struggling for the same positive result, then sure their paths are going to cross.  However, it is when the issues don't go hand in hand, but rather follow the religion because it is the religion that is worrysome.  I try not to know any government official's faith.  To me, it is something that should be kept in private.  It should be a law that they can not (while on gov. time) say any endorsment of or who they are.  That may be a constraint and somewhat uncivil one (denying one's liberty of saying it publicly), but a necissary one.  I'm not saying that person can not practice their faith or anything else, but they should not be allowed to have it part of their professional life (as a gov. official or want-to-be official [as in running for office]).  The whole, In God We Trust and God Bless Us All stuff, well I shouldn't stir this up and I won't, minus one point.  I think it was extremely in poor judgement when following 9-11, he continue to end most of his speeches with "God Bless Us All".  To me, that only turned our side of the fight on terrorism (the good side and supposidly non-partisian side) into a holy war.  I'm sorry, but when anyone of any religion says that, the instant thought in most people is, "their god" (meaning the one who is speaking).

  The whole thing really boils down to, voting for something because that is what the religion or religious officials are dictating.  That is what happened back in the Middle Ages and the European Renissance.  A matter would be up in the air or be put to rest and the Pope would come in and say I want it that way.  Most of the time, it would be done without hesitation.  I just don't want that to happen.  Its the same thing with the, imo, party system.  There shouldn't be parties anymore.  Too often it is used as a bandwagon for those informed and not informed (for different reasons) to jump on and take sides.  Sometimes they are used as a "blocking" technique, sometimes they are used as a scapegoat or a cheat (the person making a vote in congress or other official doesn't want to review all the facts of every issue and thus puts in a blind vote) or many other reasons.

Which brings me to the point that now there are only two 'real' candidates and two parties is just ridiculous.  There are too many issues now days to have so few choices of who is best to act upon the general majority of them.  I'm not saying I'd vote for Nader (nor am I saying I wouldn't either), but I don't think its fair that their party should be penalized in so many ways (along with the other parties) so they can't even get on the ballot in every state.  It should be nearly automatic that there be at least one or two more parties on the ballot in all 50 states.  If they only get 5000 votes, well that's 5000 people who don't agree with the two big candidates and should at least be heard that they don't like the big two (or that they merely prefer the third or fourth option better).  The debates should be open to those candidates as well, not just those who have millions of dollars to buy a spot.  I'm not necessarily saying that all candidates should be given money by the government to run their campaign either (I don't know how much is given, but maybe 100k could be given out to each of the four parties).  However, if they are running and legitimate candidates, then they should be given the opportunity to speak at the televised debate.

k, I'm guessing I'm about to recieve a stoning for this, so bring it. :p
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#32 Bouree57

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 03:55 PM

Nonny, on Oct 9 2004, 10:50 PM, said:

Bouree57, on Oct 9 2004, 06:42 AM, said:

Women who have been raped should know if they are pregnant before 3 months.
As opposed to all those other women who don't have a clue that they are pregnant until the second or even third trimester?  
Is this supposed to be a joke? Because I'm not laughing. There is personal responsibility to be considered.

-- B
My words but a whisper, your deafness a shout!
I may make you feel but I can't make you think.
(from Thick as a Brick, Jethro Tull)

He who made kittens put snakes in the grass.
He's a lover of life but a player of pawns.
(from Bungle in the Jungle--War Child, JT)

#33 Nonny

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 05:06 PM

Bouree57, on Oct 11 2004, 08:55 PM, said:

Nonny, on Oct 9 2004, 10:50 PM, said:

Bouree57, on Oct 9 2004, 06:42 AM, said:

Women who have been raped should know if they are pregnant before 3 months.
As opposed to all those other women who don't have a clue that they are pregnant until the second or even third trimester?  
Is this supposed to be a joke? Because I'm not laughing. There is personal responsibility to be considered.

-- B

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How could that possibly be a joke?  It is a comment on the assumption that women necessarily know that they are pregnant.  Some don't know until they go into labor.  

"Personal responsibility" indeed.  Tell me what responsibility a man has toward a woman he has gotten pregnant, if he doesn't want to be responsible.  

Some women just don't know.  Dealing with the hell of perpetual trauma that comes with rape, some women just don't think about what might happen next.  Dealing with the alienation of shame, or the humiliation of letting someone know in the small hope of getting help, pregnancy isn't what a raped women is necessarily thinking of.  

While I'm on the subject, let me say just how grateful I am (this is sarcasm BTW) to be living in a country so open-minded that it only humiliates women for getting themselves raped, and doesn't kill us for shaming our families.  And by "getting themselves raped" I mean that there is still a strong sense that "she wanted it," "she said no and that's how I know she meant yes," and "I am wealthy and powerful and male so you know she didn't say no to me."

Do you know who is the traditional victim of rape?  The father, husband, son or brother who "owns" the woman.  Before it ever took on the sense of personal violation, it was the abduction, the seizure of some guy's property, the despoiling of a woman which devalued her for her patriarch that the law cared about.  Not the woman, not her pain, her suffering, her humiliation.  Her value to the head of her family.  

I do not joke about rape.  

Nonny
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#34 Rhea

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 06:05 PM

Bouree57, on Oct 11 2004, 12:55 PM, said:

Nonny, on Oct 9 2004, 10:50 PM, said:

Bouree57, on Oct 9 2004, 06:42 AM, said:

Women who have been raped should know if they are pregnant before 3 months.
As opposed to all those other women who don't have a clue that they are pregnant until the second or even third trimester?  
Is this supposed to be a joke? Because I'm not laughing. There is personal responsibility to be considered.

-- B

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That is just bullsh*t.  

I know for a fact that MOST women don't know they're pregnant until at least 8 weeks, if not more. Many women (who are unfamiliar with the symptoms, which are different from person to person) don't know until much later that they're pregnant. Admittedly, if you were raped pregnancy would have to be something that would at least be hovering in the back of your mind all the time. But there's no guarantee that a first-time mother would know what was going on before the end of the first trimester.

I've seen women who, unbelievably enough, literally didn't know they were pregnant until they went into labor.
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#35 Norville

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 10:57 PM

Bouree57 said:

Nonny said:

As opposed to all those other women who don't have a clue that they are pregnant until the second or even third trimester?
Is this supposed to be a joke? Because I'm not laughing. There is personal responsibility to be considered.

Bouree, before you get all outraged over the concept that a woman may not know she's pregnant, there was a thread in the Exploring the Universe forum here some time ago about that...

http://www.exisle.ne...?showtopic=8811

We're not asking you to laugh, okay? Maybe men should personally experience pregnancy before they open their mouths about "personal responsibility" on the subject. (Although I don't know why I care, except as a left-over kneejerk feminist reaction, since I live like a nun and have no interest in childbearing.)
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#36 Bouree57

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 11:08 PM

Rhea, on Oct 11 2004, 06:05 PM, said:

That is just bullsh*t. 

I know for a fact that MOST women don't know they're pregnant until at least 8 weeks, if not more. Many women (who are unfamiliar with the symptoms, which are different from person to person) don't know until much later that they're pregnant. Admittedly, if you were raped pregnancy would have to be something that would at least be hovering in the back of your mind all the time. But there's no guarantee that a first-time mother would know what was going on before the end of the first trimester.

I've seen women who, unbelievably enough, literally didn't know they were pregnant until they went into labor.
That's the word I'd use as well. Bullsh*t. Am I suppose to assume those women didn't know they'd had sex? How about unprotected sex? None of this is a valid excuse for such a dangerous procedure. Make no mistake about it, it is an incredibly dangerous procedure.

We are responsible for our actions and to have unprotected sex gives no one the right to use murdering babies (ie partial birth abortion) as a means of birth control.

As for rape victims, I feel for women who have no support system in their lives that would help them through a horrible experience such as rape. But the risks of partial birth abortions are too great to use such a procedure except in cases were the pregnancy is a greater risk.

-- B
edited because I didn't feel comfortable with the strong language of my original post.

Edited by Bouree57, 11 October 2004 - 11:39 PM.

My words but a whisper, your deafness a shout!
I may make you feel but I can't make you think.
(from Thick as a Brick, Jethro Tull)

He who made kittens put snakes in the grass.
He's a lover of life but a player of pawns.
(from Bungle in the Jungle--War Child, JT)

#37 Bouree57

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 11:28 PM

Norville, Thank you for the link to the other thread. It doesn't change my mind. Not in the least. Partial birth abortion is a dangerous procedure.

-- B
My words but a whisper, your deafness a shout!
I may make you feel but I can't make you think.
(from Thick as a Brick, Jethro Tull)

He who made kittens put snakes in the grass.
He's a lover of life but a player of pawns.
(from Bungle in the Jungle--War Child, JT)

#38 Delvo

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Posted 13 October 2004 - 10:21 AM

John Edwards has now claimed that if Kerry become President, "people like Christopher Reeve" (whether that means the dead or the paralyzed) will "be able to get up from their wheelchairs and walk". :rolleyes:

#39 QueenTiye

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Posted 13 October 2004 - 03:48 PM

:o :lol:

Maybe its a new religion? ;)

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#40 Godeskian

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Posted 13 October 2004 - 04:09 PM

Delvo, on Oct 13 2004, 04:21 PM, said:

John Edwards has now claimed that if Kerry become President, "people like Christopher Reeve" (whether that means the dead or the paralyzed) will "be able to get up from their wheelchairs and walk". :rolleyes:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



:angry: I'm well aware that politicians use current events to milk their platforms, but that's beyond the pale. I can't imagine Christopher Reeve, nor his relatives being pleased at him being used as a political talking point posthumously.

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