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#41 Shalamar

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 03:22 AM

chiron777, on Mar 23 2003, 05:31 PM, said:

Rhea, on Mar 23 2003, 02:21 PM, said:

But it wouldn't have happened by royal order of George Bush, King  of the World.

And in the end, I don't really believe for a moment that *we* are in the right to tell the Iraquis that their government is not acceptable to us.

It's not just about Saddam - it's about the US, our place in the world and what we seem to suddenly feel is our God-given right to impose OUR wishes on everybody else.

Is that clear enough?
I absolutely agree with you on this... and I think it is from this that my most evil of visions came from (I cursed myself when I saw it BTW!!).  So we "win" this war, what's next?  Maybe the next instance will not be dealing with an evil dictator, maybe just a government that doesn't want to be taken over so we can increase our corporate interests.

We could easily paint it anyway we want and boom another third world nation conquered by us.  If we can tell the UN to go to hell, what chance does a third world nation have if it has natural resources that US covets?!
You say that this about resources that WE covet..

I say again..Oil is the last of the reasons.  The US imports very little of our total oil imports from Iraq, just about 2 %

George Bush, King of the World..LOL..It is not just the US, going in alone.  We do have the support of other countries, please do not forget this.

I find it rather simplistic to say that this is about  that WE have the "right" to tell the Iraqius that we don't like thier system of government...

We told the UN to go to..well where ever..but they have had 12 years to try and do something..they have passed resolution after resolution and all the while member nations have been undermining those by selling Iraq forbidden stuff on the sly and making them loans.   The UN has demonstrated that they have no teeth, no power to make others heed those resolutions...

These people have been DENIED the right to chose their system of government..They have been held hostage throught terror and force by a DICTATOR who does what he wishes and is answerable to no one!

How is it wrong to help right an injustice?

#42 EvilTree

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 04:28 AM

^I expect your support on next US crusade to root out all the dictators of the world.

Qaddafi, Castro, Kim Jong Il, Mugabe and the rest of the gang.

The list is quite long.
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#43 GiGi

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 05:33 AM

Shalamar, on Mar 23 2003, 04:13 PM, said:

We told the UN to go to..well where ever..but they have had 12 years to try and do something..they have passed resolution after resolution and all the while member nations have been undermining those by selling Iraq forbidden stuff on the sly and making them loans.   The UN has demonstrated that they have no teeth, no power to make others heed those resolutions...

These people have been DENIED the right to chose their system of government..They have been held hostage throught terror and force by a DICTATOR who does what he wishes and is answerable to no one!

How is it wrong to help right an injustice?
Then why not wait twelve more days?  Why now, why without the support of some pretty important countries?  Why are contracts to develop post war Iraq already being handed out to American companies? (I was listening to NPR Friday nite and Arrianna Huffington had some tough questions about this also)

These questions don't add up.  I am for kicking out any tyrant that is torturing people. But if you think the US is pure as the driven snow and has only the well being of the Iraqi people in mind, I have bridge to sell you too.

What I am most wary of is the US becoming the next Third Reich (which would be the Fourth Reich)... who then in later history will point their fingers at us...in this point of history and say "why couldn't they see this coming!"

We must be very careful in making earth shattering decisions like the one we have just made... if we don't we are no better that the terrorists that attacked us.  The rush into the whole thing is what is bothering me.  Something about it feels really off.

If we are talking about morality, when is it ever moral to take first blood?  This is a US invasion, who says we are right here?
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#44 Shalamar

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 09:01 AM

To save others...and we did not draw first blood...Saddam has done that since he came to power.
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#45 GiGi

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 09:20 AM

Shalamar, on Mar 23 2003, 09:52 PM, said:

To save others...and we did not draw first blood...Saddam has done that since he came to power.
Saddam did not attack the US.  He has never been connected with 9-11. For better or worse we don't have the right to attack him for what he does in his own country.  That is what being a sovereign nation means.  Another nation cannot attack us because we have the death penalty and they don't believe in it.

Hate Saddam? Yes I do.  But the US has not made the life of the Iraqi people easier either.  I have friends who have relatives still in that country and they say the worst thing for them has been to live under the sanctions imposed on them.  

I am not saying he should be in power, but his crimes against humanity should be dealt with in a world court.  

And speaking of blood, check this out - http://truthout.org/...3/022803A.shtml

#46 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 09:26 AM

Once again, agreeing with Chiron.

The difference between this and the agression in Afghanistan is that in the latter we WERE attacked.
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#47 tennyson

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 09:31 AM

I won't get into the idealogical issues other than to say I do not believe this person but I definitely have factual issues with the author, for example how can a company manufacture weapons systems that have been canceled and canceled for several years like the Crusader and Armoured Gun System , the M113 and M109 aren't being manufactured for the US anymore and haven't been for yearsand several of those weapons aren't even used by the US,. For example the Grizzley is a purely Canadian armoured personnel carrier, not used by the US at all.
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#48 StarDust

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 04:26 PM

Rhea, on Mar 23 2003, 05:21 PM, said:

StarDust, on Mar 22 2003, 09:35 PM, said:

You are the one who simply stated there was no such thing as a just war, period.

This is not specific about Saddam. Although obviously can be related.

If there is no such thing as a just war, the alternative must be just. There has to be one just outcome.

I'm simply asking you to explain how not acting can be just.

It's a fair question based on your stated opinion.
No, I said that in my opinion there's no such thing as a "good" war. War is sometimes necessary and sometimes just, but never good.
The statement was aimed at the conversation that I was having with EvilTree.

I don't believe you even had a post in there!

#49 StarDust

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 04:31 PM

Rhea, on Mar 23 2003, 05:21 PM, said:

I believe that if action had to be taken, it should have been done with the UN. And I further believe that if Bush and his cohorts hadn't acted like bumbling idiots the whole time we might have been able to actually get the UN off their collective butts. But it wouldn't have happened by royal order of George Bush, King  of the World.
Well, the UN hasn't done much for 12 years, how long exactly do you think this should go on. What magic do you think is going to happen in 12 days?

The French, Germans and Russians aren't going to go along, because they have been supplying Saddam.  It's also been stated by a UN analyst that we didn't 'bribe' them enough like we have in the past. It's all about "what's in it for me".

As far as the 'world' goes, that's rather an overblown statement. If you look at a map of europe of who is with us and who is against us, there's only 3-4 who are against. And I fail to see why anyone thinks France is important. They never have been.

As far as contracts, make sense to me. They want it to be done as soon as possible. The plan right now is to have the infrastructure totally rebuilt within a year, which is very aggressive but not impossible. That means planning needs to start now and there has to be security clearance. That doesn't mean there won't be plenty else to be done down the road. Besides, according to you no one else in the world wants to be apart of this, so which is it?

And it's unfortunate that some people can't differentiate their opinions of a person  and a situation. Just because I don't like someone, doesn't mean everything they do is wrong. Just because I like someone, doesn't mean everything they do is right.

But again, this thread is about whether or not there is a possiblity of just war, not about Iraq specifically.

Edited by StarDust, 24 March 2003 - 04:36 PM.


#50 Rhea

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 04:35 PM

chiron777, on Mar 23 2003, 06:24 PM, said:

Shalamar, on Mar 23 2003, 04:13 PM, said:

We told the UN to go to..well where ever..but they have had 12 years to try and do something..they have passed resolution after resolution and all the while member nations have been undermining those by selling Iraq forbidden stuff on the sly and making them loans.   The UN has demonstrated that they have no teeth, no power to make others heed those resolutions...

These people have been DENIED the right to chose their system of government..They have been held hostage throught terror and force by a DICTATOR who does what he wishes and is answerable to no one!

How is it wrong to help right an injustice?
Then why not wait twelve more days?  Why now, why without the support of some pretty important countries?  Why are contracts to develop post war Iraq already being handed out to American companies? (I was listening to NPR Friday nite and Arrianna Huffington had some tough questions about this also)

These questions don't add up.  I am for kicking out any tyrant that is torturing people. But if you think the US is pure as the driven snow and has only the well being of the Iraqi people in mind, I have bridge to sell you too.

What I am most wary of is the US becoming the next Third Reich (which would be the Fourth Reich)... who then in later history will point their fingers at us...in this point of history and say "why couldn't they see this coming!"

We must be very careful in making earth shattering decisions like the one we have just made... if we don't we are no better that the terrorists that attacked us.  The rush into the whole thing is what is bothering me.  Something about it feels really off.

If we are talking about morality, when is it ever moral to take first blood?  This is a US invasion, who says we are right here?
And it's not just that.

When did it become our God-given right to decide when anyone else's government is ok? Let's get real. There's a lot of the world that is ruled by people WE wouldn't have - a lot of evil that we wouldn't want to have to live under. But we just can't point at another country and said - "OK, bub - you're out!" Where do we draw the line? Or are we now under some kind of imperative to take over any country whose government we don't approve of? And I'd bet a lot of countries are wondering who's going to be next.
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#51 StarDust

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 04:38 PM

Again, this thread is about wether there is such a thing as JUST WAR

If you want to argue specifically about Iraq, I would think it would be more appropriate to open another thread.

#52 Rhea

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 04:41 PM

StarDust, on Mar 24 2003, 05:29 AM, said:

Again, this thread is about wether there is such a thing as JUST WAR

If you want to argue specifically about Iraq, I would think it would be more appropriate to open another thread.
Given that the debate over whether or not our presence in Iraq consititutes a just war, I fail to see that we've wandered off topic.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#53 StarDust

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 04:44 PM

chiron777, on Mar 23 2003, 09:24 PM, said:

\What I am most wary of is the US becoming the next Third Reich (which would be the Fourth Reich)... who then in later history will point their fingers at us...in this point of history and say "why couldn't they see this coming!"

There is no basis for that remark, and typically inflammatory instead of dealing with facts and reality. What does this have to do with the possibility of Just War?

Quote

We must be very careful in making earth shattering decisions like the one we have just made... if we don't we are no better that the terrorists that attacked us.  The rush into the whole thing is what is bothering me.  Something about it feels really off.

What makes you think we aren't being carefull? And again, where does the 'rush' come from? This has gone on many years, with lots of activity, through several administrations both Democrat and Republican, for anyone that was paying attention.

#54 StarDust

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 04:47 PM

Rhea, on Mar 24 2003, 08:32 AM, said:

StarDust, on Mar 24 2003, 05:29 AM, said:

Again, this thread is about wether there is such a thing as JUST WAR

If you want to argue specifically about Iraq, I would think it would be more appropriate to open another thread.
Given that the debate over whether or not our presence in Iraq consititutes a just war, I fail to see that we've wandered off topic.
You are arguing whether or not we should be in Iraq. That is a different topic. There have been several that think even though there is no such thing as a just war, that it's the 'lesser evil' for us to go to Iraq.

Whether or not we should go to Iraq, really has nothing to do with the original conversation of whether than can be such a thing as a just war.

Derailing the thread doesn't serve the topic.

Do you think there is such a thing as a just war?

#55 StarDust

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 04:58 PM

Rhea, I was quite serious.

If you want to start a thread to debate the details of Iraq, I'd be more than glad to discuss it with you.

I've got to go now, but I'll be back later.

#56 Rhea

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 07:49 PM

StarDust, on Mar 24 2003, 05:49 AM, said:

Rhea, I was quite serious.

If you want to start a thread to debate the details of Iraq, I'd be more than glad to discuss it with you.

I've got to go now, but I'll be back later.
StarDust, you are more than welcome to this thread. And I apologize - I actually meant to reply to Drew, not you.

I am incapable of arguing about this in the abstract while people are dying, so I obviously have no business in this thread at all.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#57 StarDust

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 08:21 PM

Rhea, on Mar 24 2003, 11:40 AM, said:

StarDust, on Mar 24 2003, 05:49 AM, said:

Rhea, I was quite serious.

If you want to start a thread to debate the details of Iraq, I'd be more than glad to discuss it with you.

I've got to go now, but I'll be back later.
StarDust, you are more than welcome to this thread. And I apologize - I actually meant to reply to Drew, not you.

I am incapable of arguing about this in the abstract while people are dying, so I obviously have no business in this thread at all.
Okay.

I don't understand why you don't want to discuss this in another thread, but that's your choice.

#58 Dev F

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 08:38 PM

Rhea, on Mar 24 2003, 07:26 AM, said:

And it's not just that.

When did it become our God-given right to decide when anyone else's government is ok?
When did it become Saddam Hussein's God-given right to decide that his government is okay? Must we accept that because he's in power, he has the right to stay in power? Must we decide that might makes right?

This issue is not mere cultural differences. The issue is a regime that sanctions rape and murder, torture and intimidation. If, as moral human beings, we have no right to stand up and say that rape and murder are evil, then what meaning does the concept of morality have?

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#59 Drew

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 08:49 PM

Dev F, on Mar 24 2003, 11:29 AM, said:

This issue is not mere cultural differences. The issue is a regime that sanctions rape and murder, torture and intimidation. If, as moral human beings, we have no right to stand up and say that rape and murder are evil, then what meaning does the concept of morality have?
^ Morality is such an outmoded concept. If they want to rape and torture their own people, who are we to judge that behavior and call it "wrong"?

Yes, I'm being sarcastic.
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#60 Bad Wolf

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 09:12 PM

It's not a matter of judging it's a matter of acting.

Since when is the United States entitled to invade any country it feels doesn't meet its moral standards.

Who's next?  

I gotta very long list.

Lil
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