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Teen Suspended Over Civil War Weapon

Gun Control Teen Replica Musket School

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#41 jon3831

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Posted 16 October 2004 - 12:30 PM

Wait a sec...

Was this a fake gun or was it a real one?

"Replica" could mean either one...
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#42 GoldenCoal

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Posted 16 October 2004 - 12:47 PM

^^
  The mother said that it was a fake, but that's not what seemed to be implied by the rest of the article.

#43 jon3831

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Posted 16 October 2004 - 02:30 PM

Okay...

If it was a fake, then this is a complete and total overreaction. In-school detention would be a more appropriate reaction than arrest and jail time.

However, if this were a real firearm, then suspension is certainly warranted, as is arrest in certain circumstances. If this kid's underage, as seems to be the case, then hopefully the judge will give him a fine and community service and the record will be sealed at age 18.

Part of being a law-abiding gun-owner is that while we might disagree with the laws, and think some of them to be ridiculous or stupid, it's still the law. That's part of the tremendous responsibility of being a gun owner.

There are some in the media and other groups that are trying to paint gun owners as lawless thugs who use lethal violence as a first resort, but that's simply not the case. When gun owners are under intense scrutiny, it falls onto all gun owners to make sure your actions are beyond reproach.

If the gun was a fake, then the school and DA are overreacting. If real? Then the kid blew it. Simple as that.
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#44 Soton

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Posted 16 October 2004 - 03:41 PM

Even if it were real, I don't see it as that big a deal.  At least with this particular gun.

We're talking about a Civil War era musket, not a modern firearm.  This is a muzzle-loading firearm, that takes 15-20 seconds to load.  And that's assuming someone who is well trained and practiced AND if he has ammunition (paper cartridges and percussion caps to go along with it).

#45 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 12:39 AM

Soton, on Oct 16 2004, 03:41 PM, said:

Even if it were real, I don't see it as that big a deal.  At least with this particular gun.

We're talking about a Civil War era musket, not a modern firearm.  This is a muzzle-loading firearm, that takes 15-20 seconds to load.  And that's assuming someone who is well trained and practiced AND if he has ammunition (paper cartridges and percussion caps to go along with it).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


IF it was a real firearm, then IMO that drastically changes everything. As you point out, it would take 15-20 seconds to load, and that's trained. But if he loaded and armed it before hand...it could still kill ONE innocent student. And that's one too many.

IF, as I suspect, it wasn't a real firearm, then the school should be sued, and this kid's record wiped clean.
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#46 Norville

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 01:40 AM

Silent E said:

No offense to reenactors or LARPers here, but the Civil War is over, folks.

True, but then, the Renaissance is long over, and the RenFaire folks wouldn't take kindly to being told the same thing. ;)

Nonny said:

And weren't bagpipes once classified as a weapon of war?

Very much so, though they really can't physically hurt people, just distress them deeply if they don't like the sound. :lol: (Personally, I adore bagpipes. ;) )

offworlder said:

It is a widely known fact, so relax and accept, that school officials have zero tolerances with weapons, or drugs, or even a kitchen knife for a class project

Zero tolerance for "drugs" includes, ridiculously enough, aspirin, Advil, Tylenol -- say, a gal is having distressing cramps and if she dares bring something with her to school to deal with it, she could get suspended. Bah, humbug to that.

Rhea said:

(And I'm gun-phobic, having, at the ripe old age of 5, stumbled into a situation where my friend's mom blew her brains out in the bathroom and her son and I walked into the empty house and found her. :eek: )

I haven't experienced that, but my father had to clean up the remains after a friend blew her brains out in a bathroom. He'd already been raised to have a general aversion to guns, but that guaranteed that he raise his kids with one, as well.

Nonny said:

Maybe he wasn't paying attention.

True, but if you're transporting a gun, you *should* pay attention, serious attention. I can't quite imagine completely forgetting that you've got a gun around. Distraction or attention deficit won't cut it there. But that's if the gun was real. Does anyone know yet if it was?
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#47 Nonny

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 01:12 PM

Norville, on Oct 17 2004, 06:40 AM, said:

Nonny said:

Maybe he wasn't paying attention.

True, but if you're transporting a gun, you *should* pay attention, serious attention. I can't quite imagine completely forgetting that you've got a gun around. Distraction or attention deficit won't cut it there. But that's if the gun was real. Does anyone know yet if it was?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heck, if you're driving a car, you should pay serious attention.  This kid did no harm to anybody, and look what's happening to him.  Laura Bush killed another kid, and look what happened to her!   :glare:

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#48 Bad Wolf

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 01:29 PM

So, because somebody else got away with something, that means this guy should too?  That just compounds the problem.  

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#49 Nonny

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 02:32 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Oct 17 2004, 06:29 PM, said:

So, because somebody else got away with something, that means this guy should too?  That just compounds the problem. 

Lil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He didn't kill anybody, he didn't hurt anybody.  Compounding what, exactly?  

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#50 emsparks

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 03:57 PM

Nonny, on Oct 17 2004, 03:32 PM, said:

Una Salus Lillius, on Oct 17 2004, 06:29 PM, said:

So, because somebody else got away with something, that means this guy should too?  That just compounds the problem. 

Lil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He didn't kill anybody, he didn't hurt anybody.  Compounding what, exactly?  

Nonny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Nonny:

This really comes under “but for the grace of God.”

The child’s intentions aside, the gun was out in plain sight, or the security guard would not have seen it. If the security guard saw it, so could, have a criminal, or an insane person. I am not going to go into the list but any number of unfortunate things could have happened.

Then there is the very strong possibility that along with the gun he had a keg of explosives (black powder) in the vehicle.

What would you say if the rifle was not found early, and at the end of the day as the child was driving out of the school parking lot, he was rear-ended by one of his friends, and the resulting accident caused enough of a fire to detonate the keg of explosives.

We are not talking about taking this boy’s life or future, but giving him a punishment that will impress on him the seriousness of what it means to keep and bear arms, and the safety issues with in his community.

Sparky::

Edited by emsparks, 17 October 2004 - 04:01 PM.

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#51 Shalamar

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 04:07 PM

What Sparky said!
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#52 RobL

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 08:06 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Silent E
1. I did a little online research on Civil War weapons after reading this. If loaded, he most certainly could have done critical damage to someone with it if he wanted to and had that mindset. I'm not saying he did, but if he wanted to, many of those weapons were large caliber and can most certainly kill someone at a close range. If he had the powder horn and weapon there, there's a possibility that he could have had live ammo there, in the eyes of the administration, which leads to...

And how the heck is he supposed to come up with the led ball used in these weapons, hmm? Melt lead in homemade molds in his very own backyard furnace? Dig them up in a civil war era battlefield? Because other than that, those rounds are very hard to come by. Existing rounds are all in the hands of collectors or musuems, and you'll be hard pressed to convince them to give them up.

Quote

3. No offense to reenactors or LARPers here, but the Civil War is over, folks. Even today, it causes some bad feelings among a lot of people. It shouldn't have happened in the first place...more sensible heads should have abandoned slavery and not slaughtered thousands. That young man needs to find something more constructive to do.

I guess you never heard of conscription. You know, when the government decides "ok, were going to war, every able bodied man has to show up and prepare to fight." Or even the draft. (Not to mention the fact that the rich land owners "paid" people to go and fight for them, so that they could stay on their estates and manage their holdings)

To forget history is to repeat it. My high school history teach told me that, and I've never forgotten it. This kid should be commended for going as far as he does in the pursuit of his education. I bet he knows more about the civil war than everyone in this thread, combined.

Quote

Originally posted by Rhea:
(And I'm gun-phobic, having, at the ripe old age of 5, stumbled into a situation where my friend's mom blew her brains out in the bathroom and her son and I walked into the empty house and found her. :eek: )


Oh, boo hoo. I love it when people blame inanimate objects for the ills of modern society. You know what? Chances are, if she didn't have a gun, she would have hacked her wrists in the bathtub, or hung herself from the ceiling fan. And you guys would have still found the body. Instead of taking the easy out and blaming a collection of metal and plastic, you should look at the true reasons for what happened: Mental illness, and the fact that the woman in this scenario did it in a way that her kid would find the body. She could have easily called the police, did the act, and have them find the body instead of her kid and you.

Sort of reminds me of the night when a suicidal man decided to go for a jog in the fast lane of a five lane (in one direction) superhighway at about 2AM. Some happless citizen going about 85 or 90 hit him, and when the guy's head hit the side view mirror it exploded like a water balloon, sending brain matter over all five lanes. I stood there and watched as three other cars (including a CHP cruser) ran over the body on the highway. Now, you don't see me on a crusade to ban all Volkswagon Jettas and Crown Victorias, do you?

You can remove every single firearm from the world, and people will still kill themselves. Instead of guns, criminals would use 2X4's and baseball bats with nails in them to rob people. What's next, banning all lumber?

Quote

Originally posted by Norville:
I haven't experienced that, but my father had to clean up the remains after a friend blew her brains out in a bathroom. He'd already been raised to have a general aversion to guns, but that guaranteed that he raise his kids with one, as well.

Must have been a while ago. Nowadays there are "crime scene clean up" buinesses that you can hire and clean up the mess. Of course, they rip up carpet and floorboards to completely sanitize the scene, but if someone bled out all over your white carpet you wouldn't want to keep it, anyway.

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#53 Guest-Silent E The Transmuter-Guest

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 08:39 PM

RobL said:

And how the heck is he supposed to come up with the led ball used in these weapons, hmm? Melt lead in homemade molds in his very own backyard furnace? Dig them up in a civil war era battlefield? Because other than that, those rounds are very hard to come by. Existing rounds are all in the hands of collectors or musuems, and you'll be hard pressed to convince them to give them up.

Lead is easy to melt.  If he's a reenactor, I'll bet he's also got a lead mold.  Or he could get one at a battlefield...they're actually easy to come by.

Quote

I guess you never heard of conscription. You know, when the government decides "ok, were going to war, every able bodied man has to show up and prepare to fight." Or even the draft. (Not to mention the fact that the rich land owners "paid" people to go and fight for them, so that they could stay on their estates and manage their holdings).

What's this got to do with anything?

Quote

To forget history is to repeat it. My high school history teach told me that, and I've never forgotten it. This kid should be commended for going as far as he does in the pursuit of his education. I bet he knows more about the civil war than everyone in this thread, combined.

Are you and Rhys the same person?  I said above: of course it should be studied...but not glorified like this kid is doing with a bunch of old geezers who probably saw the Civil War in the newspapers.

The boy needs a job to keep him out of trouble.

#54 Shalamar

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 08:40 PM

RobL writes:

Quote

And how the heck is he supposed to come up with the led ball used in these weapons, hmm? Melt lead in homemade molds in his very own backyard furnace? Dig them up in a civil war era battlefield? Because other than that, those rounds are very hard to come by. Existing rounds are all in the hands of collectors or musuems, and you'll be hard pressed to convince them to give them up.

No RobL, those rounds are not hard to come by -You can get the lead balls from many reenactment suppliers. You can indeed make your own. lead melts at a temp easily reached, and the equipment to mold the balls still exists. and lead can be bought at any plumbing supply store

RobL I find what you wrote in response to what you quoted from Rhea's earlier post  to be one of the most insensitive things I have ever seen on this board.
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#55 D'Monix

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 08:48 PM

As stated above, Lead doesn't take that much to melt down. I can make them with the mold tools i have on a kitchen stove, or a campfire.  It doesn't take much for someone to construct a usable mold for musket balls, once it's molded and cooled down, all that's required is a knife to pare off the excess lead and the ball is ready to go.

In a pinch a musket could also fire a rock, you may scratch up the inside of your barrel doing it, but it can fire them.

#56 Guest-Silent E The Transmuter-Guest

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 08:51 PM

D'Monix, on Oct 17 2004, 08:48 PM, said:

As stated above, Lead doesn't take that much to melt down. I can make them with the mold tools i have on a kitchen stove, or a campfire.  It doesn't take much for someone to construct a usable mold for musket balls, once it's molded and cooled down, all that's required is a knife to pare off the excess lead and the ball is ready to go.

In a pinch a musket could also fire a rock, you may scratch up the inside of your barrel doing it, but it can fire them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Furthermore, many of those firearms are used as muzzleloading weapons for deer season.  You can get the rounds at any hunting supply store.

#57 RobL

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 09:03 PM

^(to Silent E). Funny. I go to sporting goods stores all the time. I have yet to see these types of rounds for sale.

Yeah, you can melt led. So what. Again, why would he do it? It requires a level of knoledge and expertise that kids his age usually don't have. I realistically don't see it happening.

Quote

RobL I find what you wrote in response to what you quoted from Rhea's earlier post to be one of the most insensitive things I have ever seen on this board.

Sorry, I'm not going to cry in my beer because somebody on this board saw a dead body. I've seen them before, and I'll see them again. I've seen people die in ways that you cannot think of. That doesn't mean that I'm going to crawl underneath my bed everytime it happens.

#58 Vapor Trails

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 09:05 PM

I find it interesting that no one has mentioned the mother's role in this.

Yes, what the kid did was dumb-but doesn't the mother bare some responsibilty?

:eh:
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#59 RobL

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 09:16 PM

Digital Man, on Oct 17 2004, 07:05 PM, said:

I find it interesting that no one has mentioned the mother's role in this.

Yes, what the kid did was dumb-but doesn't the mother bare some responsibilty?

:eh:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


You right, she does. Should she have reminded her kid to put his toys away before going to school? Yeah, probably.

The kid was stupid for leaving the stuff in the back of his truck, too. Probably deserves it to be taken from him (and most of that stuff is expensive, too)

But being suspended and facing jail time? Come on, man.  :rolleyes:

#60 Norville

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 09:25 PM

Nonny said:

Norville said:

if you're transporting a gun, you *should* pay attention, serious attention.
Heck, if you're driving a car, you should pay serious attention.

I never said any different, so let's not argue about that...

Re: my mentioning that my father cleaned up after a friend's gun suicide...

RobL said:

Must have been a while ago.

Oh, let's see... I've mentioned that my parents lived through WWII, so if you want to do the math, I think it must've been back in the 1950s. What business is that of yours? :rolleyes:

Silent E said:

Are you and Rhys the same person?

No, RobL is much ruder, seeming to feel the need to make nasty comments to Rhea (though he actually showed me some "mercy") because she dislikes guns, due to her experience of finding a suicide. Guess what, RobL, you can't tell other people what psychological effects they should have due to an experience. They react the way they react, despite your wanting to command them to think the way you say they should. Ooh, you've seen dead bodies and have no compassion for those who don't like it. More power to you, dude.
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- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/



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