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Teenage Pregnancy and Abortion

Abortion

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#1 sierraleone

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 07:33 AM

I thought we could use a hot topic that had nothing to do with the war ;) Posted Image Ok, so I have *other* reasons as well  Posted Image

I was talking on chat with someone the other night, and they believe that a teenager should have to get consent from their parents to have an abortion. While I see some points they make, every time I think about it I see other reasons against it, and the more I see red.

They talked about if their were complications with the abortion, the teeanger would end up in the hospital, and their parents would have to pay for that. What if they don't want to pay for the medical bill, and therefor wouldn't have wanted to consent to an abortion. Or they wouldn't want to have consented because they could possible die from the complications?

If you look at it from a cost perspective, what about the costs of any pregnacy complications, the stay at the hospital while in labour, or complications in that. What if the teeanger needs a cesarian section? That is major surgery. There could be fatal complications with that. Whats the cost of rearing, or helping to rear a child? And most of what I mentioned are health risks to the child to, especially if they are early teens or preteens (in that case, some parents would *want* their child to have an abortion). So emotionally its a hard decision as well, your child's health is on the line. So either way, whether you have an abortion, or go with the pregnancy, there are possible fatal complications in either direction.

And if you believe your child irresponsible, and therefor unwilling/unable to raise a child and you don't want to do it, should you be able to force an abortion on them?

What about the effects of a forced pregnancy or abortion on the teeanger?
Phsyically, psychologically....

Should parents be allowed to 'control' their teenagers body? Wasn't that why women got to the right to a legal abortion in the first place? Yes, they are not adults. Parents aren't allowed to sexually or physically abuse their children, so as long as its not 'something' bad by the general consensus its ok?
I'll give those against me something to use in their defense ;)

Parents are allowed to force, or even refuse in cases, medical treatment for their children under reasons for their physical health for forcing treatment and for spiritual health (religious reasons) for refusing it. In some cases of refusing treatment for their children the state steps in.

However, the medical treatment isn't 100 % guarenteed to work for any illness, and most have possible complications/bad side effects of their own. And of course, the severity/seriousness of each is different with each illness/condition and course of medical treatment. And this is also true of both abortion and pregnancy.

They said that in the case where one party feels the other is being unreasonable it can be brought to family court. Then its got to be done in a timely manner ;) 3 months usually being the latest most places will let an abortion be done (unless advised by a doctor for other reasons).

Also, you might say the teeanger has to face the music, but some parents would not just flip, they could do anything from becoming violent, to throwing their child out to worse. As much as you might say they are in the minority, I don't mean to sound racist, but I live in a very multi-cultural area, and there are *some* people of some groups that, if they found out their daughter had sex outside of marriage, their daughter would be lucky if they only got kicked out or a marriage immediately arranged for them. Here, its against the law to reveal the sex of a child to its parents because of the number, upon learning the it was a girl, who would have an abortion.

The other day, in the news, I learned about one man, who after learning his daughter who was in college was *dating* a man of a *different race*, and he waited for them and ran them both over.... Conservative people from various backgrounds would be seeing tonnes of red if they learned their teeange daughter was pregnant. Either knowing their child had an abortion or even just the knowlegde they are pregnant, for a radical few, could be signing their death warrent (at worse of course).

If this happened, I think we'd see a lot more home done blotched abortions.

And some teenagers wouldn't go to their parents for other reasons.

My mother, when she was 15/16, when to her doctor and said "This conversation is confidential, right? Your the doctor, I'm the patient" kind of thing, and asked her pediatrition (hey, he was her doctor for better or worse : ) and asked for birth control. Mom says he shallowed a couple times during that doctors visit ;) Posted Image

People who I've talked to in my life that disagree, when mom tells them her story, say "You were responsible". She should be given exception to any law asking for consent because she was responsible. (She still got pregnant as a teeanger... but that was later). Because you can't prove condom use, they seem to think you at least have to prove you're responsible/rational and go to the doctor and *talk* about it, and most likely have to go on birth control (because you can't prove you use most other types of birth control). How do you makes rules to protect not only those responsible, but those who made a mistake and have rabid parents? Is it reasonable that a teeanger who is responsible not have to ask their parent's consent because they at least looked into their options before hand, and most likely a pregnancy is a failure of their birth control?

I'm just replused at the idea of anyone being able to force me to have an abortion/go through a pregnancy against my will. I think a persons body should more or less be their own.

Well, if you got to this point, thanks ;) I'm sure there are some points I've forgotten, though I've tried to include them all. I'm looking forward to hearing your opinions for or against. And if you are pro-life and this whole subject riles you, sorry ;) and I hope you can see some of the points I'm making. How much room their is for pro-life in here, I'm not sure, as this is not about pro-life or pro-choice quite. At least not the same in how it applies to legal adults. There is still a choice here, but it is put in the hands of the parents or legal guardians. If you feel you can discuss this, from your pro-life point of view, or any other, feel free Posted Image

Edited by Certifiably Cait, 26 August 2012 - 03:35 PM.

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#2 Bad Wolf

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 07:37 AM

Well I'm firmly pro choice.

But the point about the parental responsibility for additional costs due to complications during abortion is actually well taken.  I guess the question is whether a clinic who agrees to perform abortions on teens under 18 even without parental consent hasn't blown the right to try and hold the parents responsible for additional costs resulting from complications...

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#3 sierraleone

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 07:39 AM

^ I was wondering about that as well, I had forgotten that, thanks :)
By pro-choice, can I safely assume you mean pro-choice for the person pregnant, and not their parents? ;) :)
Since I live in Canada, as to the cost, I'm not sure if it would be as much as an issue, because of health care. Though I figure the parents would have to be informed... not so much just because their the parents, but to tell them where their kids are (especially if it is serious, and they are going to be there some time), then of course the inevitable question of why they are there ;) :)

Edited by sierraleone, 22 March 2003 - 07:50 AM.

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#4 Gina

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 08:16 AM

I just don't get why our society is so centered around sex anyway. Away with Playboy and the like! :ninja:

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#5 G1223

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 08:40 AM

Well Now as the other party in the disscussion I stated that an alterative to parental consent. Would be a family court judge making the ruling. This would let the parents voice their reasons and also let the child speak to a (hopefully impartial) Judge who could see that the child wishes as well as her safety were both protected.

Now as to Abortion as a whole topic I agree that it should be a personal choice with the woman being  allowed to have full medical information. My response to a fanatic who disagreed and said it was against God's will I responded with Then let God judge not here but in the afterlife. It's not the place for us to judge a person who has gotten a legal medical procedure

As to a husband's consent I say if a husband and wife have not discussed what to do if and when they have children what sort of marriage is it?

Now I tried to point out that. That the laws we have on this topic are a compromise of both sides in the debate. No one is totally happy but they have had their say and it's the best we have to work with.
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#6 Julie

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 09:22 AM

G1223, on Mar 22 2003, 12:31 AM, said:

My response to a fanatic who disagreed and said it was against God's will I responded with Then let God judge not here but in the afterlife. It's not the place for us to judge a person who has gotten a legal medical procedure
I don't think that's a valid point; murder is also against God's will and no one says, "Well, then just let God judge it later."  The entire idea of a justice system is to "judge" others based on the "right" moral viewpoint.

#7 G1223

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 09:29 AM

edited becasue the writer has gotten some sleep.


In the case of murder we are dealing with the fact that maybe the person who committed it is wanting to again and a people who need to make sure the killer never gets to again.

Abortion is in some eyes murder but in others it's not  it's a group of cells no more than maybe a few thousands as compared to the billions that make up person.

I am taking a pro choice point of view becasue I do not know one way or the other which is correct. I wish to err on the side of a reasonable side.

If abortion is against God's will as some claim then becasue it's legal to get one (there for not murder as the courts see it) Then God will have to judge those who have done this as he will.

The importance of God in the disscussion is that some folks wish to claim things in his name.

Edited by G1223, 22 March 2003 - 05:50 PM.

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#8 Julie

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 09:35 AM

G1223, on Mar 22 2003, 01:20 AM, said:

Yes the system has . What we are trying to do is stop an extereamist from say assulting a woman who is escourting a patient into the clinic. We are tyring to stop a much more violent course of action from taking place.
You lost me there G-- I'm not sure why that's relevant.

#9 Bad Wolf

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 09:38 AM

And I'm not sure why God is relevant either.

It's called separation of Church and State.

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#10 Julie

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 09:56 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Mar 22 2003, 01:29 AM, said:

And I'm not sure why God is relevant either.

It's called separation of Church and State.
God is relevant because religious beliefs shape one's code of ethics, and a nation's code of ethics determines that nation's basic code of law.  

Of course, saying "Abortion is now illegal because it goes against God's will" is no good because of separation of church and state, but religious peoples' beliefs naturally help form their mindset.

Also, my previous post wasn't any sort of retort to what G said, I just wasn't sure what he meant.

Edited by Julie, 22 March 2003 - 09:58 AM.


#11 Bad Wolf

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 10:01 AM

So I guess all war also goes against god's will right?

After all, people get killed.

This is why I'm so NOT into religion.  Too much black and white and too much preachiness and too much judging.

And not enough willingness to even entertain the notion that just perhaps, sometimes a person simply needs to make a hard choice.

(that's a statement about Christianity in general not about you personally.)

and now really because I know myself, I'm going to leave this thread.

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#12 sierraleone

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 10:02 AM

Julie, on Mar 22 2003, 05:13 AM, said:

G1223, on Mar 22 2003, 12:31 AM, said:

My response to a fanatic who disagreed and said it was against God's will I responded with Then let God judge not here but in the afterlife. It's not the place for us to judge a person who has gotten a legal medical procedure
I don't think that's a valid point; murder is also against God's will and no one says, "Well, then just let God judge it later."  The entire idea of a justice system is to "judge" others based on the "right" moral viewpoint.
If you want to make that 'relevant', as you said, it probably be easier to say that killing is against human laws, with the only exception I can think of being in battle or in self defense. Or places where they have the death penlity.

I assume from your statment you are pro-life, for religious reasons
Unless you are playing devil's advocate, but from what and how you said it, I doubt thats your motive.

Now I forgot what I was going to say... I multitasking too much! :)

Arg! *decides to come back if she remembers later* :D

Ah ha!

I heard about an 11 year old who was pregnant... she (and her parents, considering her age they probably had a big part in this decision) kept the child. But you got to wonder, at the age of *11* what is a pregnancy going to do to this unripe body? Should this girl be allowed abortion for medical reasons?
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#13 Julie

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 10:31 AM

sierraleone, on Mar 22 2003, 01:53 AM, said:

I assume from your statment you are pro-life, for religious reasons
Unless you are playing devil's advocate, but from what and how you said it, I doubt thats your motive.
I do love playing devil's advocate, and usually when I disagree with a particular point like I did here, I actually agree with the person's general view, but this time I'm actually on the side of the debate I agree with.

Which is a long-winded way of saying that you're right, and I'm pro-life for religious reasons.

Quote

I heard about an 11 year old who was pregnant... she (and her parents, considering her age they probably had a big part in this decision) kept the child. But you got to wonder, at the age of *11* what is a pregnancy going to do to this unripe body? Should this girl be allowed abortion for medical reasons?

I've heard this argument a lot, but the problem with it is that you assume abortion is a quick, safe procedure, and it isn't.  It puts about as much stress on the body as pregnancy.  Psychologically, it's probably even worse; although a girl that young would get a lot of ridicule for being pregnant, even mature adults have trouble coming to terms with their abortion after it's done.

And anyway, I don't think those one in a million situations are enough to justify abortions for anyone.

#14 sierraleone

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 10:48 AM

^ I don't agree that abortion should be used as a birth control method (especially the *only* birth control method for anyone), but I do think it should be allowed.

I'm personally a 'soft' pro-life for myself and a pro-choice for everyone else. I never see anything in black and white, I just see millions of shades of gray. Which is probably why I'm a fencer on so many issues ;) but on this, I don't think a teenager should have to get parental consent. It would probably cause more girls (whether it was made illegal or they had to get consent) to do abortions dangerously at home. And thats even more dangerous.
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Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#15 G1223

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 05:41 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Mar 22 2003, 06:29 AM, said:

And I'm not sure why God is relevant either.

It's called separation of Church and State.

Lil (who will now stay away from this thread because it's not the kind of thing she can discuss and not get pissed)
God's relavence in the statemnt is that as I said to a Fanatic stated to me it is aginst God's Will. I attempted to give him answer that would first calm him down and secondly have him look at  his position.

Threory one: There is a God and Abortion is against his will. Then letting God judge the woman when she finally goes to meet him is the way to solve the problem. By that I mean when she dies (hopefully of natural casues) God will determine his punishment not a group of men and women here on earth.

Theroy Two God either could care less or has sympathy for both people in this (The mother & the child) and will take to his heart both of them. The woman becasue she was for whatever reason made a choice that ended her childs life.

Sorry about the rambling post eailer it was  from too little sleep.

Edited by G1223, 22 March 2003 - 05:52 PM.

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#16 sierraleone

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 07:39 PM

We have laws against people harming other people (as in people in the eyes of the law), animals, and people's property (or public property, which is everyone's then). In the eyes of the law embyros, whether you agree with it or not, are not 'people', and therefor not afforded the same protection. Our laws are something people have different opinions on, and also what God says is right or wrong, or where people are willing to compremise is different. I think that is what Gode and other(s) mean when they say, well then let God figure it out in the afterlife. Follow our laws during our life, follow God's after we met him face to face. If you think the laws are wrong, do something about it, whether its educating, protesting, writing government. And I don't mean you have to educate the whole country/world, it can be as minor as talking to your friends about it, educating them on the risks of abortions and such, and the affects it often has on the mother's mentally and emotionally later. (you'd really want to go that route if they are atheist or liberal leaning). Or if they are religious talk about where and how life begins and god, as well as the risks of abortion.

But you have given me some food for thought, not so much what you've said, but in making my own 'sound' argument back :)

Abortion has existed for a very long time. That might not make it right, but its a reality like war, poverty, etc. Abortion is obviously accepted to varying degrees throughout time and in different places, and usually where it wasn't accepted it was done in secret. And where there wasn't abortion for an alternative for whatever reason, there was often infanticide, sometimes both togther. Until we remove the reasons abortion is sought, there will always be abortion even if it isn't 'legal'.

I think it might be an ok idea for teeangers to, after talking to a counsellor/doctor/etc, be encouraged/forced to face their parents and tell them they are pregnant and/or going to have an abortion, unless it will put the teeanger at risk somehow. I understand what some have said about teenagers being ilresponsible, and while they are in all age groups, parents are responsible for their well being. And knowing they will have to tell their parents, and at least *inform* (inform is much different from consent) them might make some teenagers think twice and be a little smarter when it comes to protection. Obviously the parents will *usually* know sooner or later if they don't have an abortion as their belly grows ;) But they might never know if their kid just has an abortion. But I think a counsellor should decide, after talking with the teenager, the possible repercussions of informing the parents in her particular situation and family dynamics. And thats about as far as I'm willing to stretch right now :)
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#17 Uncle Sid

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 10:43 PM

As it will become obvious, I'm pro-life.  I fully understand people's reasoning behind making this an issue and trying to aid teenage mothers and other people who are carrying an undesired pregnancy.  The problem is that abortion doesn't help any of these people in the long run and making it legal is just a tarnish on our humanity.

Teenage mothers and other people placed in these situations need our help, not our sanction to make themselves the agents of removing both their responsibility and our responsibility to care for a whole class of humans.  If we feel responsible for thier mistakes, then we should take the steps required to properly educate the people involved, ensure that birth control methods are available and have set aside money and resources to care for such children that result when other measures fail.

Abortion is currently legal.  Legality does not make things right, however, and indeed it is our duty to change laws that are not in keeping with our conscience.  Like those who are not in favor of other legal practices, foes of legalised abortion take actions to protest its legality with the wholly legitimate aim of having it outlawed.  This is no different than people who protest tobacco companies for their legal practice of making a product that has no value except producing addiction and cancer.  Legitimate protest against the status quo is not an action reserved for those elements of society who refer to themselves as "progressive".  And like certain "progressive" causes, some pro-life protesters go over the line.  That's unfortunate, but that's also saying that eco-terrorists speak for the entire environmental movement.  

Saying that there has always been abortion and always will be abortion is frankly a cop-out.  There will probably always be murder and war and theft and people who harm one another because of some arbitrary criteria like the color of their skin.  That does not mean that it is an option to legalize these practices in order to make it safer for those who find themselves carrying out those actions.  Some object to equating abortion as murder and think of that as unreasonably incendiary.  For the purposes of presenting the argument to people who have already edited their morality to remove a segment of the human life-span from consideration, then, yes, I have to agree it is too incendiary.  They don't believe it because of a blind-spot in their values.  Nevertheless, the differences between a child before birth and afterwards are minimal, especially as regards the need for the mother to care for that child.  Yet, after a certain arbitrary point it is a crime to dispose of an infant.  It makes no sense.

Again, I think abortion is a complete and total failure to take responsibility, but not simply for the woman, but for all of us.  It hurts the rights of women more than it seems on the surface.  It's effect is subtle, yet simple:  society does not want to spend its time or effort on caring for a child that a couple has produced without them being prepared to do so.  Under the guise of "caring about the rights of the mother", society disposes of the problem neatly by providing a legal means to remove the child without forcing bystanders to give education, care or support to women in those circumstances.  Instead of fixing these problems, the burden is simply shifted to the mother to remove the problem.

Legalizing abortion is probably the Women's Right's movement's greatest failure.  Instead of helping women, legalizing abortion simply makes it easier for unprepared fathers and families to pressure women into termination of their child.  It also allows people in government and society to neatly step around having to make sacrifices to eradicate the root causes of unwanted pregnancy as well as give a way of not making the allowances necessary to fully integrate women as full members of society.  While there is recourse to abortion and to a lesser extent, easy to obtain but not completely effective birth control methods, there will never be enough energy focused on the real problems.

How can we call it a victory for feminism if ll we've succeeded in doing is simply dropping our burden of responsibility square on the shoulders of a scared, immature young woman?  Is it the best we can do for women to give them a choice of kill your child or be marginalized and be considered to have no future?  Instead of giving women the choice of killing or not having a future, we should give them the ability to have a future in business and society at large while at the same time being able to have the ability to be a mother if they so choose.  

To do this, legalized abortion "on demand" must go.  There is no other way to escape the trap we set for ourselves.

:Oo:

P.S. Saying that we obey the law on Earth and God's law only in heaven sounds suspiciously like: "Kill them all and let God sort them out".  Few religions believe that morality is reserved for the afterlife.  Morality is how we live here in accordance with God's law, one assumes that God already has no problem with that in Heaven by default.

Edited by Uncle Sid, 22 March 2003 - 10:54 PM.

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#18 Qwerty

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Posted 23 March 2003 - 01:23 AM

I'm Pro-choice, and I believe that if a person is old enough to understand the risks of having sex and the effects it can have on your life, then you're old enough to make the decision of whether you want ot have a baby or not. It's not the parents decision, it is that of the mother, no matter what her age.
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#19 Godeskian

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Posted 23 March 2003 - 01:24 AM

ultimately, is it worth it to allow parents to force a child to have a child.

i don't think so,

and, uh qwerty,

like the Av :blush:  :cool:

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#20 Qwerty

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Posted 23 March 2003 - 01:39 AM

Godeskian, on Mar 22 2003, 10:15 PM, said:

and, uh qwerty,

like the Av :blush:  :cool:
Thanks, Gode.  :blush:  :angel:
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