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Another HYPOTHETICAL question

OT politics Partisanship State religion

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#121 Nonny

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Posted 06 November 2004 - 01:25 PM

Cardie, on Nov 6 2004, 09:58 AM, said:

I went to public schools before the 1862 decision that outlawed school prayer...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here I thought I was older than you, Cardie.   ;)

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#122 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 November 2004 - 01:27 PM

^  I believe there are some public schools who tried it and promptly got made to stop it by the courts.  All this shows is the system at work.  There was a thread around here once upon a time where someone provided all kinds of links to those cases and what happened.  IMO public schools shouldn't be peddling religion *at all* except as a way of teaching history (not teaching religious doctrine).  For example in college I took a course on the Protestant Reformation.  And I studied the Crusades.
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#123 Nonny

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Posted 06 November 2004 - 01:35 PM

Whispy, on Nov 6 2004, 10:22 AM, said:

I will have to look this up and find out where I read this, but it is my understanding that there are some public schools in California that are forcing the children to study and say prayers from the Koran.  I will go do some research on this to be sure.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you perhaps mean that some students are studying the Koran as literature along with the Bible as literature?  And that some are grousing that they're being forced, the same way I groused about being forced to read stuff I didn't want to read when I was a kid?  

I would be very surprised to hear that students in my state are being forced to pray, but I do not consider studying as literture the Koran, the Bible, the Bhagavad Gita or any other book holy to some as prayer.  

Whispy, on Nov 6 2004, 10:22 AM, said:

I suppose it depends upon how one defines having another's beliefs forced upon an individual.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed.  

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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#124 Whispy

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Posted 06 November 2004 - 01:36 PM

Quote

I believe there are some public schools who tried it and promptly got made to stop it by the courts. All this shows is the system at work. There was a thread around here once upon a time where someone provided all kinds of links to those cases and what happened. IMO public schools shouldn't be peddling religion *at all* except as a way of teaching history (not teaching religious doctrine). For example in college I took a course on the Protestant Reformation. And I studied the Crusades.

Thanks.  I thought I had read that somewhere.  


The only point I was trying to make is that Christians come under fire a lot more than people realize.  For right or wrong, it does happen and will continue to happen.  I don't think any faith, religion, belief will ever be null and void from harassment.

There will always be zealots in any faith, belief, religion or whatever that will try to foce others to follow their rules and guidelines by force.

(And just my pov the Crusades were BAD!  :angry: )

#125 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 November 2004 - 01:38 PM

Whispy, on Nov 6 2004, 10:25 AM, said:

What I was trying to ask Lil is how do courts open their sessions I think.  I seem to recall someone saying once that the Supreme Court of the United States opens its sessions with something like, "May God bless this honorable Court".  Can you tell me if this is true?

(I just don't know the proper terms to ask when it comes to law <g>)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Thanks for the clarification.  I don't know how the USSC opens its court.  I've never been in a court that openned that way but I've only been in state and appeals court.

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#126 Whispy

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Posted 06 November 2004 - 01:42 PM

Quote

Do you perhaps mean that some students are studying the Koran as literature along with the Bible as literature? And that some are grousing that they're being forced, the same way I groused about being forced to read stuff I didn't want to read when I was a kid?

I would be very surprised to hear that students in my state are being forced to pray, but I do not consider studying as literture the Koran, the Bible, the Bhagavad Gita or any other book holy to some as prayer.

My understanding is that it was not being studied as literature, but as a specific faith, learning the prayers, reciting them, and so forth.  I understood that it was so we as Americans would understand the Muslims better.  But I could be wrong.

However, as a Christian, I have no problem with children studying various different holy books as literature.  We studied ancient Greek and Roman Mythology when I was in school.  From my pov there is nothing wrong in providing that literature for children.  It helps them to understand cultures, people all over the word, etc.

#127 Nonny

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Posted 06 November 2004 - 01:50 PM

G1223, on Nov 3 2004, 07:24 PM, said:

First each state sets the terms by which residence my get abortions. The usual guidelines are these

Most be performed in the first three months.
Thast a licened doctor perform the activity. (To try and prevent accidents.)

Now the varibles I have seen

No one under the age of 18 without parent's permission.
Later term abortions must met specific circumstances. (I.E the Mother's health is endanger. The child is actually nonviable)
The Husband must consent to wife getting an abortion.( This One I disagree with but it's the law in a few states.)
A waiting period. (X number of days. Also decided by state)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just so you know:

Back in the mid 60s there was no exception for a dead fetus.  The trauma, psysical and mental, to the woman waiting to miscarry or have a stillbirth was horrifying.  

And there are Christians who believe, based on the story of Lot, that a father has the right to rape his daughters.  Whether biblically-inspired or not, incest happens.  My heart goes out to any young girl who has to ask her father for permission to abort her brother or sister.  

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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#128 Nonny

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Posted 06 November 2004 - 01:54 PM

Whispy, on Nov 6 2004, 10:42 AM, said:

My understanding is that it was not being studied as literature, but as a specific faith, learning the prayers, reciting them, and so forth.  I understood that it was so we as Americans would understand the Muslims better.  But I could be wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please post more about this, if you can find it.  I'd be interested to see where this is happening and under what circumstances.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#129 Whispy

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Posted 06 November 2004 - 02:02 PM

Quote

And there are Christians who believe, based on the story of Lot, that a father has the right to rape his daughters. Whether biblically-inspired or not, incest happens. My heart goes out to any young girl who has to ask her father for permission to abort her brother or sister.

:eek4: I have never heard this.  All of the Christians that I know and associate with would be abhorred to hear this.  Mind you, I said all the Christians I KNOW and associate with.

Having sexual relations with one's family is a big no-no to me and many who believe as I do.  I am totally shocked by this.  Obviously there are many groups who refer to themselves as Christians who believe totally differently than I do.

Thanks Nonny.  That was a major heads up.

#130 Nonny

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Posted 06 November 2004 - 02:25 PM

Whispy, on Nov 6 2004, 11:02 AM, said:

Quote

And there are Christians who believe, based on the story of Lot, that a father has the right to rape his daughters. Whether biblically-inspired or not, incest happens. My heart goes out to any young girl who has to ask her father for permission to abort her brother or sister.

:eek4: I have never heard this.  All of the Christians that I know and associate with would be abhorred to hear this.  Mind you, I said all the Christians I KNOW and associate with.

Having sexual relations with one's family is a big no-no to me and many who believe as I do.  I am totally shocked by this.  Obviously there are many groups who refer to themselves as Christians who believe totally differently than I do.

Thanks Nonny.  That was a major heads up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, it is a terrible shock, isn't it?  The incest taboo is just about as close to a cultural universal as our species gets, so it's particularly horrifying that some individuals twist a religious story to justify it.  

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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#131 Peridot

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Posted 06 November 2004 - 11:58 PM

Gefiltefishmon, on Nov 5 2004, 01:45 AM, said:

I'm so sorry everyone. I really don't wish to be inflammatory. I'll hush up now.

Delvo - you're right. By sterotyping others I'm doing the same thing they are doing to Glenn (My brother). And that's wrong. I'm sorry. Hard not to though....

You say you are sorry, and let you have let your rage-filled, hateful post stand.  Are my conservative relatives somehow less dear to me than your brother is to you?  Are they of less worth as human beings??

I have been a supporter of gay rights in various quiet ways for more than twenty years, and your posts, especially your initial one, still have offended me beyond belief, and almost beyond my power to express it.



Delvo, on Nov 5 2004, 01:51 AM, said:

Gefiltefishmon, on Nov 4 2004, 07:45 PM, said:

Delvo - you're right. By sterotyping others I'm doing the same thing they are doing to Glenn (My brother). And that's wrong. I'm sorry. Hard not to though....
Not quite. You're doing what you CLAIM they are doing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



While I don't always agree with Delvo's political opinions, his logic in this case is impeccable:  you asserted that those who voted in a manner you disagreed with were hateful people, yet it is you who have left something both hateful and hurtful in this thread, in this forum, and on this board.

I wish your brother and his partner all the best.  Some day, I hope and believe the laws will change, to acknowledge him, and to acknowledge my gay and lesbian friends.

As for you----I wish never to see such comments from you again, in this forum, or in any forum on this board.  You can vent quite safely on a piece of paper, using a pencil, without hurting and offending other board members.


#132 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 01:04 AM

Yes Peridot, I let them stand. Unless a moderator tells me to remove or edit them I will continue to let them stand because I'm the kind of person who will never attempt to hide or gloss over things I have said. I said it, I'm not proud of it and I apologized for it. Multiple times. I said a lot of horrible things and I apologized for it; you didn't like what I said, and I am sorry for that. I apologize if I offended you in any way. But don't kid yourself, I'm no Flip-Flopper, I will never, ever walk away from something I said. I won't defend it, Can't really it's hate speech, wouldn't be prudent to even try and defend it.

Delvo is really the only one who I think truly understands this issue, because he does not cloud his judgement with religious or personal issues - even I did not grasp what he has been saying until I sat back and thought about it. ALL marriages should be done away with and the State should issue only Civil Union contracts and if you want to get "married" then find yourself a nice church and go ahead, but only civil contracts would be binding in the governments eyes (If, that is I understood him correctly, frankly, I do not always understand Delvo on first reading, frequently his [assumption of maleness] writing is cogent only upon reflection). Only in this way could gay men and women avoid the persecution and hate of American society - no matter how well disguised it is. Maybe this is another one of those ways in which Europe is so "decadent", since most european countries allow gay marriages, including staunch Catholic Spain, where it just passed with an overwhelming majority.

I'll also stick to it that folks who say they have gay friends but voted against gay marriage "for reasons of conscience" are just like people from the civil rights days talking about their "Black" friends, that they still wouldn't invite to dinner or want moving in next door - disguised bigotry and lip service. Gay's are the new acceptable-to-hate minority and folks who cannot see that, IMHO, live with blinders on. That is the opinion I have.

I WILL apologize for offending you, I'll apologize for spouting hate-filled speech and rhetoric, I'll even apologize for bad puncuation and horrible spelling, Hell, I'm a liberal-conservative, I'll apologize for my apologies at the drop of a hat, but one thing I will never apologize for is my opinion. :yin-yang:
"To know that you do not know is the best. To act from the pretense that you know when you do not know is a disease" - Lao Tzu

"From All, One; and From One, All" - Heraclitus

"Let me be clear: however the world's goblet turns there will always be those drunk on the wine of the Self" - Ghalib

"A 'politically savvy challenge to evolution' is as self-evidently ridiculous as an agriculturally savvy challenge to euclidean geometry would be." - Charles Pierce

#133 Peridot

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 11:59 PM

Gefiltefishmon, on Nov 7 2004, 07:04 AM, said:

I WILL apologize for offending you, I'll apologize for spouting hate-filled speech and rhetoric, I'll even apologize for bad puncuation and horrible spelling, Hell, I'm a liberal-conservative, I'll apologize for my apologies at the drop of a hat, but one thing I will never apologize for is my opinion. :yin-yang:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Apology accepted.

I do wish to clarify one thing, however----I do not object to your having a negative opinion on persons who voted against gay unions, not even to a vehemently expressed opinion. What I did object to was seeing an opinion stated in a manner that--IMO---clearly goes way beyond board guidelines as to what is acceptable.

Also--I can certainly respect the kind of perspective that says "...I'm the kind of person who will never attempt to hide or gloss over things I have said."  That is a matter of honesty.

But I would simply ask that you understand this way of looking at the situation also:  if one throws a glass in anger--even rightful anger---and breaks it, resulting in not only a mess on the floor, but a risk to those wandering through; then when one apologizes for doing so, usually one also removes the broken glass. :pout:

Anyway....if you like, please give your brother a hug from a person who voted against the proposal opposing gay unions in her state.  It passed, but there was a substantial minority of people who were against it, like myself.

Peridot

#134 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 12:52 AM

Thanks Peridot!

I appreciate it. I DO apologize again. See I raised him (Glenn). I was 13 when he came along and when our parents got divorced and our mother went of the deep end (literally) I had to be father/mother/brother everything. When I got out of the military he came to live with me and his teenage years were - ahem - a lot of fun, from a certain point of view, but I feel more of a parent to him than a brother, and this vote hurt the both of them more than I can almost stand - the worst part is that I can't make this better, and that is frustrating to me.

That's my reasoning for being so upset. I realize it is not an excuse, just a reason.
:D  :tribble:
"To know that you do not know is the best. To act from the pretense that you know when you do not know is a disease" - Lao Tzu

"From All, One; and From One, All" - Heraclitus

"Let me be clear: however the world's goblet turns there will always be those drunk on the wine of the Self" - Ghalib

"A 'politically savvy challenge to evolution' is as self-evidently ridiculous as an agriculturally savvy challenge to euclidean geometry would be." - Charles Pierce



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