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Another HYPOTHETICAL question

OT politics Partisanship State religion

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#61 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 07:10 PM

And G1223

I'm not demonizing anyone except bigoted hate-filled morons too stupid to see that love is the key and a strong thing! The Loving, committed relationship between two people, be they two men, two women or a man and a woman, should receive the same consideration under the law.

Defend a gay marraige ban on LEGAL grounds and you'll have something.

(using the term "you" to mean "anyone who is not me" not necessarily "you in particular")

Since you can't defend it on legal grounds, then who exactly am I demonizing? Evil, hating, bigots? OK, you are right - Evil, hating, bigots are demons!!!

^lil
You are right, it's wrong of me to wish death on people *whew* but I'm pretty worked up because my country HAS DEMONSTRATED it hates the best of itself, and I can't stand it! It's heartbreaking, it really is.

Edited by Gefiltefishmon, 04 November 2004 - 07:12 PM.

"To know that you do not know is the best. To act from the pretense that you know when you do not know is a disease" - Lao Tzu

"From All, One; and From One, All" - Heraclitus

"Let me be clear: however the world's goblet turns there will always be those drunk on the wine of the Self" - Ghalib

"A 'politically savvy challenge to evolution' is as self-evidently ridiculous as an agriculturally savvy challenge to euclidean geometry would be." - Charles Pierce

#62 Bad Wolf

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 07:16 PM

Gefilt, homophobia is definitely one of my red button topics.  I can't stand it.  It seems completely irrational to me and I don't understand why people care about how other adults love one another when they're not hurting anybody.  But I think that everyone alive has prejudeces.   That alone doesn't make a person "evil" or a "demon".  It may make them wrong (and imo, people who think gays should be discriminated against because they're gay *are* wrong) but that doesn't make them evil.  People who do things like what was done to Matthew Sheppard, now *that's* evil.  As for these 11 states that passed these measures, well, not that long ago California overwhelmingly passed a similar measure.  It won in every single county except one.  Does this make these Californians evil demons?  I don't think so.  It makes them wrong in my view but that's very different.

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#63 Bad Wolf

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 07:18 PM

Gefiltefishmon, on Nov 4 2004, 04:10 PM, said:

^lil
You are right, it's wrong of me to wish death on people *whew* but I'm pretty worked up because my country HAS DEMONSTRATED it hates the best of itself, and I can't stand it! It's heartbreaking, it really is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


{{{{{{{{{{{gefilt}}}}}}}}}}}}  Feelings are running pretty damned high after this election.  Just remember that prejudice doesn't have to equate to evil and that treating it as such is probably not the best way to overcome it.
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#64 Delvo

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 07:33 PM

Gef, the flaw there is that you're claiming there's no possibility of people who don't hate homosexuals or have anything against them at all still voting against homosexual marriage. As long as your hatred and bigotry about non-liberals continues to blind you to that reality, everything you're saying about about the people you're trying to shoehorn into this absurd stereotype is only an accurate description of yourself.

#65 G1223

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 07:35 PM

Gelf the law changes.  We are both too young to have seen  "Colored Only" seating. But it existed until it was changed. Some of it was moved out by law and the rest by society comming toghere and deciding that time has come for such a change.  

It is like with abortion. people are comming to terms and the way has been cleared to where the clashes are with a smaller and smaller crowd of people who oppose it.

I am not opposed to Gay marriage but Ialso am not in favor of it. I accept that everybody else is not me nor thinks like I do. I rarely wish death on people for what they think. I am more concerned for what they do with those thoughts. Voting is a form of thinking. It is also expression.

Remember black people could not vote in the south. Yes folks went down and forced the south to see what it's choices are. I suspect the same things will need to be done here.  

As to legal grounds. Have their basis in the  the society feels is the acceptable way to behave. We found murder to be wrong so we made laws against it. We found selling rotted food to be bad we made laws.

I dislike the blue laws but I accept that the system is not going to change overnight.One direction or the other.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

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#66 sierraleone

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 07:35 PM

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Gefiltefishmon}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

As much as I understand where you are coming from, but you are becoming to sound like you state they are, hatefull, w/ these kind of comments :( And there is someone right on our own board that doesn't use religion in their arguements against gay marriage.

I've never truely understood their viewpoints, its baffling to me. Like I argued in another thread, if a majority of the population voted we should all eat Kosher would that be ok to make into law?

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Gefiltefishmon}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I hope your brother and his SO know that not all Americans feel like this.

Edited by sierraleone, 04 November 2004 - 07:37 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#67 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 07:45 PM

I'm so sorry everyone. I really don't wish to be inflammatory. I'll hush up now.

Delvo - you're right. By sterotyping others I'm doing the same thing they are doing to Glenn (My brother). And that's wrong. I'm sorry. Hard not to though....

G1223 - I still don't have to like it....

{{{{{{{{{{{{{Lil, Sierraleone}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Thanks!! I don't often vent (WHAT!? Since when!?) and I dislike being so hate-filled myself. It hurts because this is without a doubt the strongest relationship I've ever seen between two people and my country says it doesn't exist. Legislated love/hate :crazy:
"To know that you do not know is the best. To act from the pretense that you know when you do not know is a disease" - Lao Tzu

"From All, One; and From One, All" - Heraclitus

"Let me be clear: however the world's goblet turns there will always be those drunk on the wine of the Self" - Ghalib

"A 'politically savvy challenge to evolution' is as self-evidently ridiculous as an agriculturally savvy challenge to euclidean geometry would be." - Charles Pierce

#68 Delvo

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 07:51 PM

Gefiltefishmon, on Nov 4 2004, 07:45 PM, said:

Delvo - you're right. By sterotyping others I'm doing the same thing they are doing to Glenn (My brother). And that's wrong. I'm sorry. Hard not to though....
Not quite. You're doing what you CLAIM they are doing.

#69 G1223

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 07:52 PM

No one said like it. But use the system. Get the signatures nessicary for the ballot issue. You will lose time and again.  You will lose one hundred times but the hundred and first time you might win.


To use Heinlein.

Yes the game is rigged against you. But if you do not play you can never win.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#70 Spectacles

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 08:33 PM

Hi Gef,

Your love and compassion for your brother and his partner are moving. Try not to let the rage at other people's lack of understanding turn into actively wishing them ill. It's hard sometimes, I know, trust me. Some days, especially these days, I'm pretty rageful. But that can only make you sick. I really appreciate what G1223 said about change requiring constant, dedicated effort. It's worth considering, too, that the leader of the Civil Rights Movement, Martin Luther King, Jr., always advocated loving the enemy. He said the best thing you can make out of your enemy is your friend. He also said that his aim was not just to free black Americans but also to free white Americans from the shackles of their own prejudices. He saw their bigotry as an illness that hurt them, and he reached out to them in the spirit of healing.

Keep fighting, but fight the good fight.  :)

Quote

Gef, the flaw there is that you're claiming there's no possibility of people who don't hate homosexuals or have anything against them at all still voting against homosexual marriage. As long as your hatred and bigotry about non-liberals continues to blind you to that reality, everything you're saying about about the people you're trying to shoehorn into this absurd stereotype is only an accurate description of yourself.

I have yet to hear a rational argument against homosexual marriage. Believe me, I've tried to engage opponents in civil conversation, and much of their objections boil down either to (a) fear or (b) theology. And, frankly, since some Christian theologians support gay rights, including gay marriage, I think people have a more of a choice when it comes to theology than they do when it comes to their hearts and sexuality. So I wonder why people choose an interpretation of Scripture that causes them to see others as less-than them because of some element of their identities. This has nothing to do with just hating people who are non-liberals, by the way. It has to do with hating beliefs that cause some people to think that gays and lesbians should not have the same rights and responsibilities as any other citizens of this country. And, yes, I was disappointed in Kerry's opposition to gay marriage, too. He managed to maintain a prochoice stance by saying, wisely, that he didn't want to impose his religion in governance. It was another matter, however, when it came to gay marriage.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#71 Bad Wolf

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 08:35 PM

But Kerry supported the idea of gay civil unions did he not?
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#72 Spectacles

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 08:42 PM

Quote

But Kerry supported the idea of gay civil unions did he not?

Yes, he did. And I'm glad of that. But we need to give some credit to Bush, too, for taking a stand for civil unions last week. When asked if he was aware that the Republican platform opposed them, he replied that he didn't care. So on that issue, he's moved to the left of some of his most ardent supporters.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#73 Bad Wolf

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 08:51 PM

I give Bush no credit.  He stated quite unequivocally that he supports a Constitutional Amendment to protect the sanctity of marriage. It is common knowledge that civil ceremonies are called marriages.  Bush's late breaking "support" of gay civil unions in light of his previous stance on the Constitutional Amendment were insincere at best and a downright lie at worst.
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#74 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 08:51 PM

^Delvo

What do you mean by that? That I CLAIM they are doing it when in reality they are not doing it? So then by voting to Ban gay marriage they are..... what? NOT stereotyping Gays and Lesbians into some sort of allowed minority that it's ok to hate?

Empirical evidence defeats you there - I have no need to claim others are doing something when they have so recently and thoughtfully demonstrated they are doing it. 11 States voted and 11 states banned it. Wasn't so long ago that a marriage between black and white was just as throughly banned, so how is that NOT the stereotyping of a minority for personal assuagement of hate?

That is how I read your response to me. An indictment of me and an absolvement of all the people who voted against gay marriage. Because, of course, since I have a problem with it, it must be MY problem, since sanctioned hate is allowable in your universe? I'm missing something here... If you don't have a problem with homosexuals and you think they should have the same rights you do, then how can you be against the solidifying of their relationship in the eyes of society (makes them even more likely to blend in if you ask me)? To say that people might not have a problem with homosexuals but don't want them to marry is just like saying you don't have a problem with blacks as long as they don't move into your neighborhood - it's disguised bigotry.

G1223 - Thanks. I appreciate the sentiment. We will.  :p

Edited by Gefiltefishmon, 04 November 2004 - 08:59 PM.

"To know that you do not know is the best. To act from the pretense that you know when you do not know is a disease" - Lao Tzu

"From All, One; and From One, All" - Heraclitus

"Let me be clear: however the world's goblet turns there will always be those drunk on the wine of the Self" - Ghalib

"A 'politically savvy challenge to evolution' is as self-evidently ridiculous as an agriculturally savvy challenge to euclidean geometry would be." - Charles Pierce

#75 Spectacles

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 09:00 PM

Quote

I give Bush no credit. He stated quite unequivocally that he supports a Constitutional Amendment to protect the sanctity of marriage. It is common knowledge that civil ceremonies are called marriages. Bush's late breaking "support" of gay civil unions in light of his previous stance on the Constitutional Amendment were insincere at best and a downright lie at worst.

Oh believe me, it pains me to give him credit for anything. :)

You're right. Unlike Kerry, Bush made a grand public statement back in February supporting that godawful marriage amendment. I had thought that his support of civil unions was late breaking, too, until Rov pointed out that even at the time he made the announcement, he said he was nevertheless supportive of civil unions. It didn't occur to me, though, until you said it, that this is such a legally inconsistent position. In effect, he supports something that an amendment he supports would open to legal challenge. Is that right? Sheesh. And Kerry was branded the flip-flopper.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#76 QueenTiye

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 09:10 PM

Were I in one of the states voting on this matter I would have supported the measure so long as the wording did not preclude the possibility of civil unions.  If I were in one of the states voting on this matter, and the wording was such as to preclude civil unions, I have voted against it.  

I'm saying that without regard to my own Faith tradition - which is against homosexual marriage.  My opposition to gay marriage is based on my understanding of the concept of marriage.  My support of civil unions is based on my understanding of the constitutional rights of all Americans.

Now, Gelfitefishmon... what would you like to happen to me?

HM07

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#77 QueenTiye

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 09:13 PM

President Bush is a cancerian, like myself.  His birthday is lots of years before and a few days after mine.  I find myself sympathizing with some of his fuzzy thinking, because I think I sometimes think like that.  I liked his rationale for proposing a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage.  I think it was perhaps a bit optimistic, but still - I liked the thinking.  He said he wanted to prompt a national debate.   That's a worthy goal - worthy of a sitting president.

Editing to avoid the inevitable jokes...;)

HM07

Edited by Handmaiden07, 04 November 2004 - 09:16 PM.

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#78 Delvo

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 09:18 PM

Gef: You continue to equate a vote against homosexual marriage with hatred of homosexuals. That equation is false.

#79 sierraleone

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 09:21 PM

^ I suppose he prompt these debates before too many Americans were ready for gay marriages/unions, whether you see that as a good thing, a bad thing, or a thing that should never change.

I'm a Cancer ... me and my fuzzy thinking and my fuzzy memory at times  :D

Why aren't there conservatives that think like you HM  :hugs:
Or more/enough of them anyways  :blush:

Edited by sierraleone, 04 November 2004 - 09:22 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#80 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 09:31 PM

Delvo - so you keep stipulating but I still don't see it. Prejudice is prejudice. Either a gay man is an American or he isn't. What's at stake here is the artificial creation of an acceptably hated minority. Ask Barrack Obama what it's about and he'll tell you it's the same thing we had back in the 60's with color. Sexual orientation is the new acceptable racism.

If a person thinks they have nothing against gays and then votes for a gay marriage ban they are deluding themselves. They are prejudiced and bigoted.

When someone says that they are against gay marriage what they mean is they are against gays, but since that may not be politically correct their subconcious strikes out where it can. There is no reasoning, other than religious, for which a gay marriage ban could be considered, or even legal.

{{{{{{Handmaiden}}}}}} - I would like for you to learn about the gay people I know. You don't think Gay people should marry, but they could have a civil union which is "just the same" - except it's not. It's all very nice to tell the black man in 1964 Alabama that his school is "just as good as a white school" - only it wasn't and it's not. I'm never surprised at how acceptable it is to sow hate at gay's - what surprises me is who does it and how it's continually attempted to be disguised as somehting other than hate and fear.

It also surprises most people to learn that until the 5th century same sex marriages were routinely sanctified by the eastern orthodox churches, which can be seen in old mosaics in places like istanbul, but is mostly ignored by the west, which, for the most part doesn't even think of those movements as Christian....
"To know that you do not know is the best. To act from the pretense that you know when you do not know is a disease" - Lao Tzu

"From All, One; and From One, All" - Heraclitus

"Let me be clear: however the world's goblet turns there will always be those drunk on the wine of the Self" - Ghalib

"A 'politically savvy challenge to evolution' is as self-evidently ridiculous as an agriculturally savvy challenge to euclidean geometry would be." - Charles Pierce



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