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Arafat may have died

MIddle East Arafat Coma Palestine

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#41 WildChildCait

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 05:56 AM

I may not like his opinions on things but I do respect his right to have his opinions.

Yes, he may have done some awfull things - not denying that...but come on guys, the man is dying. Can't you find it in yourself to stand above all this mudslinging?

I've got to say i'm a little shocked at the vitriol here...i don 't like the guy any more than the rest of you, but wishing someone pain? wishing someone burn in Hell? how are you guys any better?

Look at the log in your own eye before you try for the splinter in that of another folks.
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#42 G1223

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 12:29 PM

Chadee his opinion is that children of Israel are to be killed.  That blowing up a bus full of civilians is a good thing.  You respect tese opinions? He became the leader of the country by strongarm tactics just like Hitler. Arafat is a monster that lead a terrosits organization and deserves to die. I hope that his final parting is painful. because of the innocents he killed and maimed.
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#43 Norville

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 01:57 PM

I keep hearing conflicting reports about his condition. He'll no doubt die, but it'll take a while -- I've always considered him to be as tenacious as a cockroach. ;)

I'm not going to get into any vitriol about him here. He was a terrorist, but my problem is that I think that *both* the Israelis and the Palestinians have a right to exist, so he had his reasons, much as I found his methods to be... unspeakable.
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#44 WildChildCait

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 02:02 PM

G, I respect that that is his opinion
I don't have to agree with an opinion to respect it.
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#45 Shalamar

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 02:50 PM

Quote

PARIS (Reuters) - The fate of Yasser Arafat  was mired in confusion on Tuesday as Palestinian officials insisted in public he was clinging to life even as aides said privately the veteran leader had died at a Paris hospital.

Foreign Minister Nabil Shaath, in a strenuous denial, said the Palestinian president, 75, was "very much alive," but at least five senior sources said he had succumbed to the mystery illness that led to his being flown to Paris on Oct. 29.

A top aide said Arafat, who lapsed into a coma last week, had suffered a brain hemorrhage. Palestinian sources said leaders were waiting for a senior Muslim cleric to arrive on Wednesday to give the go-ahead for disconnecting life-support machines.

"He is dead," one Palestinian source said. "He died after bleeding in the brain began last night. His bodyguards started hugging and kissing and telling each other to be strong."

Posted 46 minutes ago
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#46 Howling Mad

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 04:51 PM

Shalamar, on Nov 4 2004, 12:58 PM, said:

There are many who would say that the historical roots for the 'mid east problem' go back far further than a mere 40 years, but stretch back some near 1,000 years to the crusades...

A very large part of me agrees with DM - I don't think they want peace.- It's much easier and more conveinent to keep chanting the mantra of "my great great great grandfather was killed by yours so I'll kill you" rather than grow up, get a grip, get a life and acknowledge while there are tremendous wrongs on both sides - that righting those wrongs will not be easy and neither side may be totally pleased by the out come- but go about righting those wrongs and go forward from point X

It's easier to hate after all.....

I think a lot of people are looking at this as if it were a "Hatfields & McCoys" situation -- it's not. It's much more like the expansion campaign in the American West in the 1800s. We take more land, the Native Americans try to fight to keep it. We slaughter them, they attack what they can, where they can. The world sees them as savages, and sees us as the Light of Civilization -- and Damned if it ain't so!

Personally, I think the parallel is nigh unto undeniable.

#47 tennyson

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 06:59 PM

I do not agree with you in the slightest, no Isreali with any voice in what is happening considers the Palestianians as noncivilized less than human savages vs the near universal perception of the Native Americans at the time, both sides in this current conflict have a long history of living in the same region in the same cities going back millenia vs the sudden introduction of a new culture into North America. The Jewish people had existed as part and parcel of the majority Islamic culture of the region, either as part of the Ottoman, Byzantine or Crusader states for millenia before Isreal itself became an independent state. and if you think that the majority opinion of the situation now has Isreal seen as some "light of civilization" by others then you haven't been paying enough attention to the situation. Vast swaths of the media of the nations of the world and thier leaders echo a different flavor of your words about the "poor oppressed Palestianians" and comparing Isreal to any totalitarian government that they think will have the most emotional impact.  And so the dance of death just goes on and on and outsiders call Isreal a monster and the Palestinians rightous and those forces on both sides who don't want peace that are truly to blame go on as the true causes are lost in generalizations.
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#48 Howling Mad

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 07:13 PM

tennyson, on Nov 9 2004, 04:59 PM, said:

I do not agree with you in the slightest, no Isreali with any voice in what is happening considers the Palestianians as noncivilized less than human savages vs the near universal perception of the Native Americans at the time, both sides in this current conflict have a long history of living in the same region in the same cities going back millenia vs the sudden introduction of a new culture into North America. The Jewish people had existed as part and parcel of the majority Islamic culture of the region, either as part of the Ottoman, Byzantine or Crusader states for millenia before Isreal itself became an independent state. and if you think that the majority opinion of the situation now has Isreal seen as some "light of civilization" by others then you haven't been paying enough attention to the situation. Vast swaths of the media of the nations of the world and thier leaders echo a different flavor of your words about the "poor oppressed Palestianians" and comparing Isreal to any totalitarian government that they think will have the most emotional impact.  And so the dance of death just goes on and on and outsiders call Isreal a monster and the Palestinians rightous and those forces on both sides who don't want peace that are truly to blame go on as the true causes are lost in generalizations.

Then please enlighten me as to what you believe to be the true cause of the current conflict. And unless I am mistaken (and I don't believe I am) there would have been neither cause nor occasion to recognize Israel as an independent Jewish state in the Middle East if it had already existed there in modern times.

Your argument seems to be that because Israel was a state in that region at one time, that people who were essentially foreigners to that land could simply claim it in an Appeal to Tradition and displace those who resided there without being subject to argument of any kind.

Were I to use that logic, I could claim that caucasians could forcibly evict first- through third-generation Hispanic immigrants from the Southwest, because whites lived there before them; or that Native Americans ought to evict any and all Europeans for the same reason.

#49 tennyson

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 08:14 PM

I see you have responded to a strawman arguement that I never made, interesting, since nowhere did I supply the arguement that you have responded to or any arguement based around the state of Isreal's existance whatsoever. I said that certain people had lived there and had been there for quite some time continously as a direct contradiction to your rickety analogy.
At no point did I saw or imply or even mention anything about the ancient kingdom of Isreal or Judea or say that it had anything to do with the current situation. I merely said that Jews and muslims had lived together for millenia in an amiable relationship in this region under many different external powers.
But since you ask and seem to want to find someone to blame I can supply many, from the British who reneged on thier argement to make an independent nation of Palestine after World War I, the fanatical Jewish and Arabic groups that led to the British withdrawling from the region, the leaders of every surrounding nation that even after the area had been partitioned into both an Isreali and Palestianian state declared war on Isreal on its day of independence and tried to drive them into the sea and thoe same leaders who extorted the Arabic population to leave and clear the way for the destruction of the Jews. I generally start it somewhere around there since that seems to be the genesis event for the formation of the Palestinian people of today, paying for mistakes made decades ago as well as for the mistakes of today.  The blame all depends upon how far back you want to go, you could even blame the people who sold thier land in Palestine to new Jewish immigrants in the 19th century without bothering to give thier tenants notice.  
But the issue now is how to generate peace for borh sides without mass slaughter, the Palestianis aren't all innocents, not with hundreds of Isrealis dying per month in suicide bombings but the tiny minority that does this had made it impossible for the majority to have peace. Isrealis have made thier fair share of mistakes as well, from the building of all those new settlements in the 1990s and the failure in Lebanon, but the majority of people from both sides want peace. But how can a nation-state back down when members of its population have been killed time and again from the moment of formation of groups like HAMAS and the PLO? I don't see either side as being completely clean, not after so much blood has been shed and I don't know what it will take for a lsting peace only that it has to come about.
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#50 Ogami

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 09:21 PM

G1223 wrote:

Chadee his opinion is that children of Israel are to be killed. That blowing up a bus full of civilians is a good thing. You respect tese opinions? He became the leader of the country by strongarm tactics just like Hitler. Arafat is a monster that lead a terrosits organization and deserves to die. I hope that his final parting is painful. because of the innocents he killed and maimed.

Thanks to men like Arafat, the Palestinian culture has become a culture of death. They worship death, they yearn for death, to them, death is life.

Such a sickness of the heart cannot go away until the present generation of evil men like Arafat are gone.

Only then will there truly be hope for peace.

-Ogami

#51 Howling Mad

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 01:54 AM

tennyson, on Nov 9 2004, 06:14 PM, said:

I see you have responded to a strawman arguement that I never made, interesting, since nowhere did I supply the arguement that you have responded to or any arguement based around the state of Isreal's existance whatsoever. I said that certain people had lived there and had been there for quite some time continously as a direct contradiction to your rickety analogy.
At no point did I saw or imply or even mention anything about the ancient kingdom of Isreal or Judea or say that it had anything to do with the current situation. I merely said that Jews and muslims had lived together for millenia in an amiable relationship in this region under many different external powers.

Okay, that's contradictory. Either you're referring to an ancient Israel, or you're referring to the modern Israel. If you're referring to neither of those, you're just throwing a red herring.

Quote

But the issue now is how to generate peace for borh sides without mass slaughter, the Palestianis aren't all innocents, not with hundreds of Isrealis dying per month in suicide bombings but the tiny minority that does this had made it impossible for the majority to have peace. Isrealis have made thier fair share of mistakes as well, from the building of all those new settlements in the 1990s and the failure in Lebanon, but the majority of people from both sides want peace. But how can a nation-state back down when members of its population have been killed time and again from the moment of formation of groups like HAMAS and the PLO? I don't see either side as being completely clean, not after so much blood has been shed and I don't know what it will take for a lsting peace only that it has to come about.

I've never said that either side was innocent, merely that as the group with the more powerful military assets, Israel is the one with the majority of the power. As the more powerful group, it is Israel who can and should be the one to stop the escalation of hostilities. The way for them to do that is simple: stop taking more land.

And the other point that I am trying to make is that Israel must be held accountable when its actions lead to the deaths of innocent people, whether it claims those actions are accidental or not. If the government of this country "accidentally" slaughtered an innocent family or six, there would be a public outcry like none you've ever seen.

#52 tennyson

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 01:58 PM

I see you still don't understand what I've been saying, I'm only talking about modern Isreal as a nation-state when I refer to "Isreal" and when I refer to the history of amiable relations between Muslims and Jews I am refering to thier relations when other powers controlled the area such as the Ottoman Empire, the Byzantine Empire and the various Crusader kingdoms. At no point was I refering to the ancient Isrealite kingdom or its 2 sucessor states since Islam didn't exist then and arabs were nomadic tribes who worshipped the moon and the elements then so thier would have been no muslims to interact with. In the 600s CE the area of the modern state of Isreal was under the remants of the Byzantine Empire and jews and arabs lived there. Then the area was controlled by the first of several caliphates, then by the Crusasers and then the Ottomans and all throughout that muslims and jews lived side by side in this area. Just as some jews left and dispersed across the world, others stayed in palestine. Going back to your analogies, there has not been in millenia a time when thier were no hebrews in what is now the modern state of Isreal and until the 20th century they and thier nieghbors got along pretty well. Vastly better than the treatement they recieved in Europe, from the later pogroms on back to the mass slaughter of the jews of France in the 1320s on trumped up charges of poisoning wells so government offcials could take thier property.
As far as people dying by accidental government action is concerned, it happens more often than you might think and the US gets plenty of blame. Thier has definitely been enough outcry in the Arabic language media and other places every time someone hasn't programed in the right cordinates into a bomb and it hits a home or misses its true target by feet and hits a restruant or the very coalition troops they were trying to train with. Bombs and large missiles are not true precision instruments as much as they are hyped to be and while yes you can hit a single window on a house with one you have no garuntee that the person is even there let alone if other innocents are around.
As far as military power is concerned, at one point the PLO had a large standing army based in Lebanon outfitted with tanks, armoured personnel carriers, Soviet antiaircraft artillery like the ZSU-23-4, howitzers, mortors, shoulder-fired SAMs and a host of antitank weapons. That was what Isreal went into Lebanon in 1982 to destroy.
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— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#53 QueenTiye

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 05:37 PM

tennyson - thank you very much for bringing your excellent military history knowledge to this subject.  {{{{{{{{{{{tennyson}}}}}}}}}}}}

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#54 tennyson

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 06:34 PM

You're welcome, I was just trying to provide a little perspective.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#55 DWF

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 10:59 PM

Well it's official he is dead.
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#56 Rockhound

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 11:03 PM

Where are you seeing that?

Edit: ok, MSNBC says that Al Jazeera is reporting him dead.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6402008/

Edited by Rockhound, 10 November 2004 - 11:07 PM.

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