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Should the Age Of Consent Be Lowered?

Age of consent sex Different States Law

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#21 WildChildCait

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 08:33 AM

[quote]I would agree, except that in the case of pregnancy, it's the girl that carries the child.  She's the recepticle and must deal with the implications.  Therefore the buck must stop there.[unquote]

and I happen to be one of them.

let me start wit the double standard. Two people are participating, why should only one be responsible?
in fact, let me point out it is the MAN's fault entirely - two women together will not get pregnant. And cosidering women get the inconvenienc or in some cases the downright pain of periods, I'd say they are in enough biological trouble to start with.

Women taking BC can gain wait, be depressed, and are about 8 times more prone to suicide.

Way to go..
and by saying that women are mere recepticals, you are treating us like cattle or a possession.

Hey, why not take all infant males and while you are busy circumcising, just do a quick snip anyway? hey presto, no need for birth control If all men where snipped, women could not get pregnant, and neither gender would have to incessantly pollute their bodies with all sorts of toxic crap.

Now, before i get really t'd off, i'm leaving this thread.
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#22 G1223

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 08:52 AM

Maybe we could simply leave the age rith were it is.

The laws were set because the system cannot say this person is mature and this one is not. Just as pointed out we set limits on the minimum age a person can operate a tractor, or an automobile. When they can vote or when they can smoke.

Why? Because people want to to normally raise their kids where they can keep them safe from the evils of the world.  They know it's not going to be 100% effective but messing with the limits each state has set for itself means teliing these parents that the state knows better than them.

I'll take the parents over the state most of the time.
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#23 Godeskian

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 08:59 AM

Quote

messing with the limits each state has set for itself means teliing these parents that the state knows better than them.

But don't the states already tell the parents what's kosher or not by having set age limits in the first place?

It seems to be a contradiction to what you are saying

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#24 G1223

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 09:09 AM

First the state did not make this number up out of the blue. They acted the electrate(The people) their opinion. They set the age that worked with the largrest number of people.  

Now if the state wishes to change the law they had better have that popular support. Otherwise the elected officals will discover that they can be voted out of office(And in some states Recalls can be done so there will be no waiting till the end of their term)
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#25 sierraleone

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 09:46 AM

Quote

Chaddee:

Quote

Rockhound:I would agree, except that in the case of pregnancy, it's the girl that carries the child.  She's the recepticle and must deal with the implications.  Therefore the buck must stop there.

and I happen to be one of them.

let me start wit the double standard. Two people are participating, why should only one be responsible?
in fact, let me point out it is the MAN's fault entirely - two women together will not get pregnant. And cosidering women get the inconvenienc or in some cases the downright pain of periods, I'd say they are in enough biological trouble to start with.

Women taking BC can gain wait, be depressed, and are about 8 times more prone to suicide.

Way to go..
and by saying that women are mere recepticals, you are treating us like cattle or a possession.

Hey, why not take all infant males and while you are busy circumcising, just do a quick snip anyway? hey presto, no need for birth control If all men where snipped, women could not get pregnant, and neither gender would have to incessantly pollute their bodies with all sorts of toxic crap.

Now, before i get really t'd off, i'm leaving this thread.

Its the Man's fault entirely? Yes, two women having sex won't get pregnant. Whats the point? Two men having sex won't get either of themselves, or someone else, pregnant either. The rest of your post, I don't have any problem w/. (except the last paragraph ;) )

But *both* people having sex should discuss pregnancy and preventing it if they so desire *before* hopping into bed like rabbits. Granted supposively teenagers never think about that (funny how I'm still a virgin at 21, I obviously thought about it, I don't think making excuses for teenagers because of their age helps anything), but I don't think mandatory BC would help or go over well. Instead of closing their eyes and figuring the schools are teaching kids all they need to know about sex, parents should be talking to their kids about sex and responsibility. I read once it shows that is much more likely to produce positive results in this department, but I couldn't find it now unfortunently.

Lowering the age to puberty does not help. (and what sign would you use for puberty in boys, they don't have an obvious sign like menstration). Puberty can happen anywhere from 8 (actually younger) to 16 (in some cases older). Can anyone tell me an 8 yr old would be ready for sex? Vs a 16 yr old?

Having someone prepare them for sexual responsibility is a good idea, but one can't legislate that, again it has to come from the parents.

As for you idea of not just preparing them mentally, but actually giving them sexual experience.... say I thought that was a good idea (I sort of ambivilant about it). What about Homosexual teenagers? Our society I don't think is ready for any of this frankish about sex.

They had to set up an arbitrary age. Yes some adults never understand the responsbilities of sex, does that mean we should lower the age to possible include more people not ready for sex?

At least adults will be held responsible for their actions and to a higher standard. They get pregnant, they don't need to get permission from their parents for an abortion, they know if they'll likely be able to adequately support a child based on their current income if any. Their bodies are fully mature. Chances are the father will be old enough to demand child support from. These people know about paying bills (even if they aren't good at it, likely they've had experience doing so).

Edited by sierraleone, 10 November 2004 - 09:50 AM.

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#26 WildChildCait

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 10:35 AM

Your right, my last paragraph (technically last but one, but who cares) was meant to be entirely sarcastic, and about as idiotic as making women solely responsible.
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#27 sierraleone

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 10:42 AM

^ I figured, hense the wink, but I didn't want any to think I was in serious agreement w/ the last paragraph if I just said I agreed w/ it all :D

I didn't think you were serious, but I didn't want anyone to misunderstand what I was saying :)
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#28 QueenTiye

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 11:05 AM

Rockhound, on Nov 9 2004, 11:10 PM, said:

Now let's be honest, with today's kids and their intense knowledge and practice of sex, they're having sex with each other.  What's the difference between having sex with someone their age or someone older?

Wait, you say: we have to protect them from the dangers of sex.  What dangers?  STD? They give it to each other.  Pregancy?  There's no difference between the sperm of a 16 year old boy and a 21 year old man.  What else? Psychological impact?  What psychological impact?  :eh:

When you ask "what psychological impact" - I ask rhetorically - what psychological impact does a sexual relationship have on you?  

Quote

And who sets these age limits anyway?  What's the difference between having sex with a 16 year old girl and having sex with a girl who's 15 and 364 days and 23 hours?  Does she suddenly become enlightened about sex in that final hour?

Obviously not.  I think that the age of consent should coincide with the age at which a  child is legally able and socially likely to be able to be independent of their parents.  16 isn't it in this country, in most places.  BUT...  there may be places where the economic realities and the cultural norms make it possible for a 16 year old to be independent.

Quote

Now here's what I think.  Again, I'm not advocating anything illegal...I'm not saying "go out and hop some jailbait."  It's still illegal, and you can go to jail and be branded a sex offender for the rest of your life (for something relatively harmless; however, you can commit manslaughter, serve your time, and get out with few people the wiser).  This is just something to think about, folks.  IMHO, it should be legal to have sex with anyone who's attained puberty and is willing.

When a child who's attained puberty has also attained the maturity that is needed to survive in the society in which s/he lives, then they are no longer minors.  If you genuinely want to make legal and biological adulthood coincide, then much needs to be done to restructure society to produce 14 and 15 year old adults.  We had a thread on this a while back.

Quote

In fact, all girls, once they reach puberty, should be put on birth control.  C'mon, we innoculate them for crap they will probably never be exposed to, but it's out of the question to protect them from pregnancy?  One pill a day, that's it.

So, the cure for irresponsible behavior is to make it easier to be irresponsible?  And, at risk to the health of all females?  Nice.

Quote

I hear about kids having sex at school, so you gotta be careful.  With today's birth control, our young men and women can be introduced to the pleasures of love at an early age  bythe more experienced and perhaps dodge the bizarre hangups that many of us adults have developed by waiting for so long.  Polynesian cultures did it all the time; it was expected for a young boy entering puberty to make the rounds with all the women of the village so they could teach him what a woman needs.

The "hangups" we experience, are, in my opinion, the result of promiscuous behavior and prudish outlooks that tell us that sex is 'bad' when it is not.  We are too prudish to learn and experiment, and too promiscuous to wait until we've found the proper relationship with the proper emotional support to conduct these experiments in.  Add to this the emotional consequence of sex - someone is bound to fall in love - and at an age when nothing can really be done about it.   You fall in love at 14.  Can you support yourself?  Can the kid you are in love with support himself? Have you learned yet what responsibility is all about? So what is bound to happen but that people grow apart because their circumstances cannot coincide with their emotions?  And, since we are advocating sexual irresponsibility at puberty - how about the fact that most sexual encounters at this age are hormonally driven trysts that kids feel compelled to have, and often want without emotional consequence?  What about the fact that its bound to happen some of the time that the hormones driving this interaction die down and are redirected for one partner, but not for the other?  Teenaged heartbreaks are practically inevitable - and are worse when they've been complicated by a level of intimacy that is not sustainable.  It is my opinion that these are the sources of "hang ups."

Quote

Oh, but they don't understand the ramifications of sex and must be protected?  Like all adults (or even half) have that same level of understanding.  I don't think so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


And yet, so long as they are the responsibility of adults, adults have to do their job and protect them - not just by preventing them from doing stuff, but by educating them.  The fact that some people are sexually hung-up, or irresponsible does not mean therefore that parents should abandon their responsibilities to their children.

HM07

Edited by Handmaiden07, 10 November 2004 - 11:55 AM.

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#29 Tricia

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 11:14 AM

The laws are in effect basically to keep the much older male or female from taking advantage of a young child.  


It's up to the adult in any situation to be smart enough and mature enough themselves to draw the line in any relationship whether it's with someone of legal age or under.  And no man or woman over the age of 21 has any business having sex with a child and sorry but that's what most kids even today under 16 are.  

Puberty does not exactly make the brain work in a logical manner and the hormones can override common sense. But the adult should put a stop to any improper physical contact.  That is why there are laws. So the adult will think about the consequences. Tho from recent news stories not amny adults are thinking with their brains.

Giving birth control to girls once they reach puberty is a double edged sword. The Pill is not 100% effective either and believe me it is possible to get pregant on the Pill.

In addition to the potential health problems long term...there are people who believe that giving your daughter birth control implies consent for her to go ahead and have sex whether she already is or not. And whether she is ready or not for it.

Same with giving boys condoms...it implies consent.

Also even now in this day and time  parents are still not comfortable with giving their children 'The Talk"  Sex is about more than the act. It is about feelings and so much more.  The act without the emotions is just wrong and nasty.


AS to lowering the legal age of consent....personally I say no and I doubt that anyone would be able to change this law even if they wanted to.  You forget that the 'compassionate conservatives' would not even begin to consider this and they are in control right now

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#30 sierraleone

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 11:14 AM

Quote

HandMaiden:

Quote

Rockhound:
In fact, all girls, once they reach puberty, should be put on birth control.  C'mon, we innoculate them for crap they will probably never be exposed to, but it's out of the question to protect them from pregnancy?  One pill a day, that's it.

So, the cure for irresponsible behavior is to make it easier to be irresponsible?  And, at risk to the health of all females?  Nice.

At the risk to males too, no mention of preventing STDs, just pregnancy. Or are we going to hand girls female condoms as well and boys regular condoms.
Edit: It would imply its ok to go out and have sex, it would imply the parent's consent. At least the pill, some girls take the pill for medical reasons, not for preventing pregnancies, so don't have to do anything w/ sex. You can't get away from the implicitness of giving all teenagers condoms on puberty.

Edited by sierraleone, 10 November 2004 - 11:20 AM.

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#31 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 11:19 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Nov 10 2004, 02:36 AM, said:

In answer to the original question: are you talking about lowering the age of consent for purposes of things like statutory rape laws?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I don't know for certain if that is what he was driving at, but it would have to be done if they lowered the age standard. Otherwise the other person involved in the act would get charged, so in effect yes it is doing away with statutory rape. Which is another reason why I'm against lowering the age of consent.
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#32 G1223

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 11:28 AM

I had forgotten that we do live in a culture where if this was actually done we could see 15 yr girls doing adult vidoe.  I mean if consent is dropped to when the person is "mature" (BTW when is that going to be defined and who's defination are we going to use?) what other issues can we have dragged out.

Imagine it now child porn no longer illegal. Children under 12 no longer assumed to be forced or manipulated into having sex. Ah yes a wonderful world for a molester.


For the rest of us it will mean having to watch our back and the backs of our kids even in places we thought we could trust people in.



Oh on the issue of Condoms I would give them out to teenagers at around 16 unless they come forward earier.  I think girls should have them and refuse sex if the boy will not use it.
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#33 darthsikle

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 11:36 AM

Is this a thread the people at Ex Isle really want open??  Is this family oriented??

Ugghh.
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#34 sierraleone

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 11:37 AM

^ I definately think they should be available, I wouldn't recommend withholding birth control, or condoms from teenagers, but I don't believe they should be given out to every teenager upon puberty, or any specific age either. They (condoms at least) should be shown/available in health class, and be available in the nurse's office at school.
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Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
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Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
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#35 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 11:40 AM

G1223, on Nov 10 2004, 11:28 AM, said:

For the rest of us it will mean having to watch our back and the backs of our kids even in places we thought we could trust people in.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Don't we already live in that type of world? I mean we thought it was ok to leave our children at church with the local Priest. Boy were we wrong on that count.
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#36 sierraleone

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 11:48 AM

darthsikle, on Nov 10 2004, 12:36 PM, said:

Is this a thread the people at Ex Isle really want open??  Is this family oriented??

Ugghh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Depends on what you consider family oriented. We've discussed sex, birth control and condoms before. We've discussed pedophiles. Teenage sex. A thread HM refered to discussed the lengthening of childhood in todays society and how in the past 16 yr olds could be independent from their parents and how is how things are now good or bad. Theres no reason we can't discuss lowering the age of consent - as you notice most people are opposed to it. As long a the discussion is civil.
This is also a board were people come to discuss issues, and any controversial issue could be consider not family oriented. Some people think that discussing gay marriage is not family oriented.

I'm not actually oppose to all of RockHound's idea. The idea of someone sitting down w/ these teenagers when they hit puberty to discuss sex, conquences and responsiblity, and relationships. A *great* idea. But not something the government can legislate (nor should it in my opinon)

Edited by sierraleone, 10 November 2004 - 11:53 AM.

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Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#37 G1223

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 11:48 AM

LotS we are near that point but this would push it over the edge.

To be honest most of the religous community is upset by molesters no matter if they are clergy or not. They focus on helping the child deal with the trama of rape.  Now good folks I have seen who were clergy would only bring God into the discussion to ease the fears of the kid. "No God did not do this and no God is not going to Punish you" they are good folks. it's the 1% we have to deal with. Now the RC church will eventually change it's ways. The lawsuits are part of the reason. The other is they are human as well.
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#38 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 11:55 AM

G1223, on Nov 10 2004, 11:48 AM, said:

LotS we are near that point but this would push it over the edge.

To be honest most of the religous community is upset by molesters no matter if they are clergy or not. They focus on helping the child deal with the trama of rape.  Now good folks I have seen who were clergy would only bring God into the discussion to ease the fears of the kid. "No God did not do this and no God is not going to Punish you" they are good folks. it's the 1% we have to deal with. Now the RC church will eventually change it's ways. The lawsuits are part of the reason. The other is they are human as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Oh I agree. Lowering the age of consent is definately a bad idea. But your previous post made it seem like there are places where parents don't need to watch their kids backs. That's not the case.

As for the molesters in the clergy being the 1%. That very well may be, not sure of the stats on it. Still, I know from now on everytime I see a priest I have to ask myself: "Is this Priest a molester?" And consequentially I look at him differently. It's sad, really, but there is no other choice.

As for the RC church...don't even get me started.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#39 QueenTiye

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 11:59 AM

darthsikle, on Nov 10 2004, 11:36 AM, said:

Is this a thread the people at Ex Isle really want open??  Is this family oriented??

Ugghh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I actually think the topic is somewhat controversial, but as sierraleone said,  the intelligent discourse makes it ok for this board.  I think that if you read the thread and the opinions expressed therein, you'll find that the opinions expressed here are thoughtful and diverse - and since the topic came up, I consider it an opportunity to explain my own views on a more conservative but less self-loathing approach to human sexuality - an opportunity to point out that we don't have to toss the baby (morality) with the bathwater (purient and/or prudish attitudes toward sex).

So, I do think its worthwhile...

HM07

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#40 G1223

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 12:08 PM

As I said most of the celergy are good folk. just like the others I have met. So do not lump them in altoghere.

And yes LotS there are places parents candrop their guard.  Because there are people who prove that they are trustworthy. Sometimes it's clergy sometimes it's a nieghbor or a family friend. That the kid turns to for help or advice.  Why? Because sometimes to our kids we are the authority figure we speak and the mountains rumble.  The first adult friend they will have the person they will ask about"Why do they (Boy/Girls) do this" the one who give a reason. Maybe not the best of answers but it will an answer.

Eventually LotS we have to let the kids get hurt so they know we cannot always be there and they must be careful and that we trust their judgements. It will happen even when we do not want it to.

So dropping age,as we agree, is not a great idea by any means. And in fact ,in my opinion, endangers the child more so.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

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Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.



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