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Should the Age Of Consent Be Lowered?

Age of consent sex Different States Law

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#61 sierraleone

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 01:54 PM

darthsikle, my opinion is all human minds are a scary place, its all a matter of degree ;)

Steven Q do you mean if they are both between 14 and 16, or if they are both above 14 yrs old period (like the example darthsikle gave).

Do they have the least pregnancies or the least pregnancies carried ot full term? (not trying to attack your position, I agree w/ what you said about educating teenagers, but I'm wary of statistics, as others said, they don't neccessarily reflect the reality always).
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#62 Godeskian

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 01:57 PM

sierraleone, on Nov 10 2004, 07:54 PM, said:

Steven Q do you mean if they are both between 14 and 16, or if they are both above 14 yrs old period (like the example darthsikle gave).

Even the Dutch would have issues with a 35 year old dating a 14 year old. However, if a 14 year old has a 16 year old boyfriend, then the assumption is that sooner, probably rather than later, they will have sex, and so they might as well be taught how to have sex safely, and responsibly.

Quote

Do they have the least pregnancies or the least pregnancies carried ot full term?

Lowest rate of teen pregnancies, i've never seen any stats for pregnancies to term. Dutch kids are made well aware of the problems of teen pregnancy, and for all the flack the dutch get over their 'morality' it mostly works as well.

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#63 maryavatar

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 02:32 PM

darthsikle, on Nov 10 2004, 06:36 PM, said:

I'd just like to add my two cents, anyone who advocated lowering the age of consent below the existing societal accepted age is a pedophile and potential child molester in my book.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, because everyone who thinks it's futile to try regulate the sexual behaviour of teenagers wants to have sex with children.  I'm one of your 'potential child molesters', and I suppose I should be offended.  I am, however, too busy tucking my kids into bed, while telling them that no one has the right to tell them how and who to love.
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#64 darthsikle

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 02:36 PM

If you're saying it's OK for a 14 year old to have sex with a 35 year old, the I really don't mind offending you
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#65 maryavatar

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 02:41 PM

My father was 30 years older than my mother, and they were happily married until he died.  My mother wasn't 14 when they met, but a 14 year old is capable of knowing their own mind.  If one of my children came home and said they were dating someone that much older than they were, I'd have problems with it, but I wouldn't go into some hysterical hissy fit and start hurling child abuse accusations.
"When God made the arse, he didn't say, 'Hey, it's just your basic hinge, let's knock off early.' He said, 'Behold ye angels, I have created the arse. Throughout the ages to come, men and women shall grab hold of these, and shout my name.'"

#66 darthsikle

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 02:42 PM

Who hurled a child abuse allegation??   not me, however, allowing a 14 year old to fornicate with a 35 year old IS child abuse in my book.
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#67 Godeskian

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 02:46 PM

Yes, but your book isn't the same as the Dutch legal rulebook.

#68 maryavatar

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 02:52 PM

darthsikle, on Nov 10 2004, 07:42 PM, said:

Who hurled a child abuse allegation??   not me, however, allowing a 14 year old to fornicate with a 35 year old IS child abuse in my book.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't say anyone had.  I said I wouldn't.

You are perfectly entitled to assume that a 14 year old can't make their own decisions.  That is, as you say, 'your book'.  My book, however, is not even on the same shelf as yours.  You will not change my mind, as I will not change yours.  I suggest we stop trying.
"When God made the arse, he didn't say, 'Hey, it's just your basic hinge, let's knock off early.' He said, 'Behold ye angels, I have created the arse. Throughout the ages to come, men and women shall grab hold of these, and shout my name.'"

#69 darthsikle

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 02:54 PM

by your admission, the age of consent is 16 in your country.  Whether the authorities look the other way or not has nothing to do with whether it is legal or not.

Edit: this was in response to Steven_Q

Edited by darthsikle, 10 November 2004 - 02:55 PM.

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#70 sierraleone

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 03:01 PM

maryavatar, on Nov 10 2004, 03:41 PM, said:

My father was 30 years older than my mother, and they were happily married until he died.  My mother wasn't 14 when they met, but a 14 year old is capable of knowing their own mind.  If one of my children came home and said they were dating someone that much older than they were, I'd have problems with it, but I wouldn't go into some hysterical hissy fit and start hurling child abuse accusations.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


A 14 yr old maybe be capable on knowing their mind, and may want to have sex. But are they ready for all the ramifications of having sex? (STDs, possible pregnancy). Even if they are smart enough to use condoms/BC I feel, because no method is 100 % foolproof, if they aren't ready for a child we should have an age, however arbitrary, of consent.

Just curious, where would you draw the line for the purposes of law? 18? 16? 14? 13? 12? Or would you get rid of the age of consent completely and write other laws? (Its only a crime if they are under 18 and a parent wants to prosecute, and/or under 13 period?
plus it still be child porn if any person involved was under 18?)
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#71 Godeskian

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 03:08 PM

darthsikle, on Nov 10 2004, 08:54 PM, said:

by your admission, the age of consent is 16 in your country.  Whether the authorities look the other way or not has nothing to do with whether it is legal or not.

Edit: this was in response to Steven_Q

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I wish i could explain to you how wrong you are when it comes to the dutch and law.

let me try and explain, many many years ago, it was illegal to overtake cars in a specific fashion when coming onto a motorway. It didn't stop anyone, because the method was both safe and practical. However, it was illegal. This went on for many years untill some brainiac decided 'this is nuts, why are we arresting people for doing somethign which harms no one, kills no one, and only makes criminals out of regular people'

this is one example, there are a dozen or so others.

What's legal is one thing, what's morally acceptable is another, and that difference is important in the Netherlands.

Quote

Whether the authorities look the other way or not has nothing to do with whether it is legal or not.

As to this, don't be ridiculous, there are far too many inane laws on far too many countries books to claim they should all be upheld.

go here http://www.dumblaws.com/, for a list of laws which should never be upheld, regarless of your beliefs, ethics or morals.

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#72 Godeskian

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 03:09 PM

sierraleone, on Nov 10 2004, 09:01 PM, said:

plus it still be child porn if any person involved was under 18?)

In holland, yes, any photographic or video material featuring under 18 year olds performing sexual acts is considered Child Pornography.

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#73 darthsikle

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 03:12 PM

Steven_Q, on Nov 10 2004, 08:09 PM, said:

sierraleone, on Nov 10 2004, 09:01 PM, said:

plus it still be child porn if any person involved was under 18?)

In holland, yes, any photographic or video material featuring under 18 year olds performing sexual acts is considered Child Pornography.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


OK...they can consent to sexual relations but not to being pictured??
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#74 Godeskian

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 03:13 PM

yup

Stupid, isn't it

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#75 darthsikle

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 03:18 PM

We probably disagree on which part is stupid however
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#76 maryavatar

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 03:20 PM

sierraleone, on Nov 10 2004, 08:01 PM, said:

A 14 yr old maybe be capable on knowing their mind, and may want to have sex. But are they ready for all the ramifications of having sex? (STDs, possible pregnancy). Even if they are smart enough to use condoms/BC I feel, because no method is 100 % foolproof, if they aren't ready for a child we should have an age, however arbitrary, of consent.
But having a legal age of consent isn't going to change how smart they're going to be about sex, or stop them having it.  All it does is make it possible to prosecte the person they've had sex with after the event.  If a teenager is determined to have sex, whether they're ready or not, they will find a way.  We need education not legislation.

sierraleone, on Nov 10 2004, 08:01 PM, said:

Just curious, where would you draw the line for the purposes of law? 18? 16? 14? 13? 12? Or would you get rid of the age of consent completely and write other laws? (Its only a crime if they are under 18 and a parent wants to prosecute, and/or under 13 period?
plus it still be child porn if any person involved was under 18?)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm definitely in the 'other laws' category, however, I will admit that it's unlikely that any law will really be effective.  When you attempt to regulate sexual behaviour, you have to take into consideration that no two people are alike.  We can all agree that someone who commits rape or murder is either a criminal or insane, but how can you say when a person is ready for a sexual relationship?  Should it be legal to have sex with a precocious 14 year old?  Should it be illegal to have sex with a slow-maturing 19 year old?  What about the mentally handicapped?  If someone has the body of a 25 year old and the cognitive abilities of a 12 year old, should sex legal or not?  

There is no one answer to these questions.  There is no right answer.  Even judged on a case-by-case basis, people will always disagree on what should be done.
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#77 sierraleone

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 03:23 PM

Steven_Q, on Nov 10 2004, 04:09 PM, said:

sierraleone, on Nov 10 2004, 09:01 PM, said:

plus it still be child porn if any person involved was under 18?)

In holland, yes, any photographic or video material featuring under 18 year olds performing sexual acts is considered Child Pornography.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That whole thread was asking maryavatar her opinion. I didn't miss your post about Holland's law on it, earlier up the thread ;) :)

As to the age of consent being different then the age of which taking their picture is child pornography. I could sort of see the point. In some places, teenagers under a certain age have to get parental permission to get a job. Why would being in a porn video/picture be any different? And what if the pictures were taken *without* their permission/knowlegde? While they were having consensual sex perhaps?
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#78 DWF

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 03:25 PM

darthsikle, on Nov 10 2004, 02:42 PM, said:

Who hurled a child abuse allegation??   not me, however, allowing a 14 year old to fornicate with a 35 year old IS child abuse in my book.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That's about how old my grandmother and grandfather wre when they got married and it was an arranged marriage at that.
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#79 WildChildCait

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 03:39 PM

Actually, Sierra, Holland has one of the lowest teen pregnancy rates *and* teen abortion rates worldwide, and for both it IS actually the lowest in Europe.

I would conclude less pregancies, and less carried to term

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#80 WildChildCait

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 03:45 PM

Sierra, Again, let me say from experience...
Any dutch kid brought up in dutch schools at age 14, will know about STD's, their symptoms and disease cycle (and usually a few really horrific examples the history and biology teacher collude on finding) as well as pregnancy, testosterone, estrogen, progesteron, how the female menstrual cycle works, how the male gonads work, and a few other things like that.

Dutch sex ed is very, very, very thorough.

In fact, having one kind of protection is not deemed sufficient by most - using Pill or another hormonal contraceptive and a condom is known as 'double Dutch' for a reason ;-)

I remember with the scouts, going to a craft fairl...and one of the things they had where 'condom races' ...you had to form a team of 5, turn in turn put a condom on a piece of plastic, take it off, tie a knot in and deposit in the bucket and had it to the next member of your team.

Needless to say, the team winning got a pack of condoms each. This fair was admissible for any age, and the majority there where jeanagers.


So is the drugs ed, but that is a different issue.
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