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LGBT Arkansas Anti-gay

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#1 Harper's Cat

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 01:15 PM

I was listening to 101.9 an Arkansas pop-rock station this morning and they were talking about a church group that would be protesting at a High School in Arkansas this morning.  I'm a Sunday School teacher so this got my attention, I couldn't imagine what would be so bad at a school that a church group from Topeka, Kansas felt the need to make that far a trip.
They were protesting the student group Gay-Straight Alliance.  The radio DJs, Jon and Jen spoke on the phone with a woman who claimed to be the lawyer representing the Topeka church group.  This lawyer didn't use any fowl language but she was VERY rude and obnoxious.  Jon and Jen were patient while she ranted on about how all gays were going to H***.  Jon asked some very intelligent questions which the woman completely avoided answering.  
I don't recall it verbatim but I was more impressed with the DJ's behavior than this supposedly educated woman.  
Jon asked her if she thought that her actions would change the minds of the gay students and her comment really stuck in mind.  She said (and I quote) "I don't give a rat's behind about those deck chairs on the Titanic!"
What kind of an attitude is that?  God told us to Love one another as He loves us.
Yes, he told us homosexuality is wrong but that doesn't make Gays bad people.  They are lost just like liars and thieves but we can pray for them and try to help them NOT persecute them like this group appears to be doing.
I have gay and lesbian friends, they are aware of what the scriptures say about their way of life and how I feel about it.  I don't browbeat them or smack them over the head with my Bible, I don't pray for them to be the way I want them to be, I pray that they will be the way God wants them because my vision is Human and as such is flawed.
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#2 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 02:10 PM

Harper's Cat, on Nov 18 2004, 01:15 PM, said:

  She said (and I quote) "I don't give a rat's behind about those deck chairs on the Titanic!"
What kind of an attitude is that? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That is the attitude of a fanatic. I'm surprised to find this attitude present in the lawyer though. I would've expected it to be present in the group, not the lawyer.

But, then again, what is the difference between a lawyer and a fanatic?  ;)  :p

*runs out of the thread before the lawyers sue him*
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#3 Cheile

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 02:39 PM

eh the hatemongers will end up in hell with the ppl they hate anyway.  that's how i look at it :snort:  i doubt God forgives such vile hatred.

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#4 Dev F

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 03:06 PM

It sounds like the group in question is Westboro Baptist Church. From what I've read, they're not a real church but more of a family cult, led by the "Reverend" Fred Phelps and consisting mostly of his children and grandchildren, a lot of whom are lawyers, for some reason. Their pet issue is anti-homosexuality, and they're to the right of pretty much everyone else in the country on this issue. They picket the funerals of gay people who've died of AIDS, and are trying to erect a memorial commemorating the date on which Matthew Shepherd entered Hell, and all other sorts of astonishing awfulness.

Just do a Google search on "Westboro Baptist" for more information.

#5 WildChildCait

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 03:23 PM

question: I"m not a christian, but let's assume for a moment that the christian model is correct, god exists and made man.

If god made man, did he or did he not also make gays? So how can being gay be wrong? After all, god made them that way! (and there is more and more evidence that it might be genetic- i personally believe it probably is). I"m more tempted to say there might be a translation error in teh bible (which was done by humans), than a translation error in so many people's genetic code.
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#6 Jazzer

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 04:00 PM

Chaddee, on Nov 18 2004, 03:23 PM, said:

question: I"m not a christian, but let's assume for a moment that the christian model is correct, god exists and made man.

If god made man, did he or did he not also make gays? So how can being gay be wrong? After all, god made them that way! (and there is more and more evidence that it might be genetic- i personally believe it probably is). I"m more tempted to say there might be a translation error in teh bible (which was done by humans), than a translation error in so many people's genetic code.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What I'm about to say will likely be considered very controversial.  I realize it's also a complicated subject and I'm not claiming to have any easy pat answers about it.  I'm inclined to think that at least with some people, their sexual preference tendencies have some flexibility.  

I can't speak from personal experience.  I can only share some of what I've learned from or observed about other people.  

At one time I had worked for a few years for an organization that provides help to people with HIV/AIDS.  During that time I got aquainted with many homosexuals and lesbians.  There was one guy who had considered himself homosexual, but after not having seen him for a long time, he came back and said that he had gotten "saved" or whatever term you care to use.  He considered himself to have become a true Christian.  He said that in past years he had tried many times to change (become heterosexual) but failed.  But he said after his encounter with God, that he had genuinely changed and no longer considered himself homosexual.  I've heard of other similar stories of other people.

Something I noticed that among some who consider themselves to be homosexual, some have great hostility towards those who claim to have changed.  It seems as if they don't even want people to have change as a possible option.  If it is possible, what's wrong with someone desiring and choosing change?  

I have also noticed that if an otherwise heterosexual man claimed to have ever had even only one homosexual experience, some of the homosexuals would then consider him to be homosexual rather than bi-sexual or pre-dominately heterosexual.  I'm trying not to sound too rambling, but I've just noticed that some gays seem eager to label others, even if some of the people they label don't agree with the label.  

I'm not claiming to have all the answers.  It's just that I've gotten the impression that human sexuality may not be as simple or "set in stone" as some may believe.  

Now I hope I don't have to duck & run, depending on how people react to what I've said.
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#7 Jazzer

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 04:21 PM

Dev F, on Nov 18 2004, 03:06 PM, said:

It sounds like the group in question is Westboro Baptist Church. From what I've read, they're not a real church but more of a family cult, led by the "Reverend" Fred Phelps and consisting mostly of his children and grandchildren, a lot of whom are lawyers, for some reason. Their pet issue is anti-homosexuality, and they're to the right of pretty much everyone else in the country on this issue. They picket the funerals of gay people who've died of AIDS, and are trying to erect a memorial commemorating the date on which Matthew Shepherd entered Hell, and all other sorts of astonishing awfulness.

Just do a Google search on "Westboro Baptist" for more information.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fred Phelps is one scarey human being.  I came across his website one time.  At first I thought it was just some kind of bizarre, sick joke, then I realized these people were serious!  There was a photo of ol' Fred.  He looked insane.  His eyes look insane.  I wouldn't want to be in the same room with that man.   :barf:  

On his website, he also said he planned to protest at Billy Graham's funeral when Billy Graham dies.  Fred seems to have many people on his hate list.  He seems to hate anyone not of his own group.  

Fred's group came to my city one time in the last couple of years.  It was to protest some item in a museum here that had been donated by someone who was gay and famous.  I think they may have also been protesting some gay-lesbian group here, too.  

I can love and like people I don't necessarily agree with.  To clarify, in my own personal moral code, I consider any sexual behavior outside marriage to be immoral.  I don't get in other people's faces about it if they don't share the same view.  But this is what I have chosen to live by for myself.  

Something I noticed in the Bible, is that Jesus was much harsher with anyone he considered to be hypocrits (the "religious elite") than he was with anyone he simply considered to be a "sinner".  

Anyway, on the local news they showed Fred Phelps' group protesting.  They even had some of their children carrying horrible signs like "AIDS cures homosexuality".  They're hate-filled people and teach their children to hate.  I believe Fred Phelps will be in for a hot "rude awakening" when he finally dies.  I believe someone can't have that kind of hatred in their hearts and love God.  

After seeing that, I remember thinking I'd genuinely rather sit in a room full of drag queens than to be among that crazy, hateful bunch that Fred Phelps leads.  As I mentioned in a previous post on this thread, I had opportunity to become acquainted with many homosexuals.  Some of them were drag queens.
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#8 Kosh

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 04:36 PM

Dev F, on Nov 18 2004, 04:06 PM, said:

It sounds like the group in question is Westboro Baptist Church. From what I've read, they're not a real church but more of a family cult, led by the "Reverend" Fred Phelps and consisting mostly of his children and grandchildren, a lot of whom are lawyers, for some reason. Their pet issue is anti-homosexuality, and they're to the right of pretty much everyone else in the country on this issue. They picket the funerals of gay people who've died of AIDS, and are trying to erect a memorial commemorating the date on which Matthew Shepherd entered Hell, and all other sorts of astonishing awfulness.

Just do a Google search on "Westboro Baptist" for more information.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



If that's Phelp's group that explains it all. He a real nut case.
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#9 rodglas

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 05:36 PM

Chaddee, on Nov 18 2004, 04:23 PM, said:

question: I"m not a christian, but let's assume for a moment that the christian model is correct, god exists and made man.

If god made man, did he or did he not also make gays? So how can being gay be wrong? After all, god made them that way! (and there is more and more evidence that it might be genetic- i personally believe it probably is). I"m more tempted to say there might be a translation error in teh bible (which was done by humans), than a translation error in so many people's genetic code.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



First I want to say that it is people llike this who give all people of faith a bad name.  Even if you disagree with homosexuality from a religious standpoint responding with hatred is not the way God calls us to deal with it.

God made humans, so yes he did make gay people, but he didn't make it them gay.  Considering that heterosexuality is the way God intended, then homosexuality is an aberation from the created purpose.

Now you may wonder why God allows anything that may be against his original purpose to exist, its because he did give us free will which allows for the existence of sin and this may be a much longer discussion.

Rod.

"edited to add the first paragraph"

Edited by rodglas, 18 November 2004 - 05:49 PM.

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#10 Vapor Trails

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 06:15 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Nov 18 2004, 02:10 PM, said:

Harper's Cat, on Nov 18 2004, 01:15 PM, said:

  She said (and I quote) "I don't give a rat's behind about those deck chairs on the Titanic!"
What kind of an attitude is that? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That is the attitude of a fanatic. I'm surprised to find this attitude present in the lawyer though. I would've expected it to be present in the group, not the lawyer.

But, then again, what is the difference between a lawyer and a fanatic?  ;)  :p

*runs out of the thread before the lawyers sue him*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



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#11 WildChildCait

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 06:28 PM

hmmm. I"m a strong believer in a) acceptance and b) he kinskey scale (i think i'ts called that = a scale from 1 to ten, with 5 bein an absolute bisexual, 10 being an absolute heterosexual, and 1 being an absolute homosexual). We come in all flavors, i belive, and i believe that is partially due to the bisexuals among us chosing for heterosexual behaviour during the middle ages through to the 1950's at least.

To me, and my belief system, you are what you are, and quite frankly, if you where made that way, well, then that's the hand you where dealt. No slighthing that. And if some cult believes ohterwise, that is their right too, but dont' push it on me!

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#12 Godeskian

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 06:30 PM

I don't think Rod was trying to 'push' anything. He was merely explaining his views on the subject.

#13 Nick

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 06:56 PM

There are a number of reasons why there's some animosity towards "ex-gay" individuals, especially from homosexuals.  The biggest one, IMHO, is that they simply don't buy it.

One of the big tenets of the gay/lesbian community is that it's not a choice.  Through some combination of biology and the formative years, people are what they are.  Sexuality is as ingrained a part of us as any aspect of our personalities.  It's not an on-off choice, it's not a fetish, and it's not a disease--not something to be "cured".  Sure, society isn't all that accepting of it--things have improved in the past few decades, for sure, but there's still a lot of controversy.

So, when someone who is gay choses to "change themselves" in some way, it's widely viewed that they aren't changing anything--only going back in the closet and denying who they are.  To use a racial metaphor--imagine a black person who changed their appearance cosmetically to make themselves appear "white", then went around declaring that they've been "cured" of their "blackness".

It also raises major concern if these people marry and start a family.  I'm not going to argue whether or not someone *actually* can change like that, but for many of those who become "ex-gay", it doesn't last.  And if they marry, start a family, etc. in the meantime . . . it can have very serious consequences if they realize/decide later that they really are gay after all.  (To be fair, this happens a lot with those who never came out until after starting families too)

The big thing to keep in mind is there's a major difference of opinion on ideoligies on what makes someone gay.  Opponents generally think it's a choice and can be changed, proponents generally think it isn't  a choice and attempts at changing are simiply repression and will come back with major consequences later.

-Nick

Edited by Nick, 18 November 2004 - 07:17 PM.


#14 Jazzer

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 07:03 PM

The only reply that comes to mind is simply that if such a change was genuine, only time will tell if it was real or not.  I will agree this is a complicated issue and that there are many varied view points about it and I have no pat answers about it.
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#15 rodglas

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 11:13 PM

Chaddee, on Nov 18 2004, 07:28 PM, said:

hmmm. I"m a strong believer in a) acceptance


I also believe in acceptance, but acceptance is not always the same as agreement.  I don't agree with the lifestyle any more then you might agree with my faith and I accept that.  



Quote

To me, and my belief system, you are what you are, and quite frankly, if you where made that way, well, then that's the hand you where dealt. No slighthing that. And if some cult believes ohterwise, that is their right too, but dont' push it on me!

Chaddee

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Steve is right, I'm not trying to push anything on you or anyone else.  I'm not a bigot for that implies hate, I don't hate anyone.  I believe that humanity was not created the way we are today that all forms of immorality, be sexual or otherwise is as a result of our breaking away from God.   I therefore accept all things that I cannot change (or at least I try) for I do believe that all change can only come from God.

Rod.

Edited by rodglas, 18 November 2004 - 11:14 PM.

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#16 Josh

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 11:18 PM

Quote

There are a number of reasons why there's some animosity towards "ex-gay" individuals, especially from homosexuals. The biggest one, IMHO, is that they simply don't buy it.

Damn right. The only experience I've had with being gay (and I have plenty of it) is that it's not a choice and it's something you have to learn with and eventually accept. I'm tempted to believe that these men weren't able to accept it (understandable considering popular opinion) and have been deluding themselves... something which CAN NOT be emotionally healthy.

Of course, the other possibility is that they're bisexual. ;)
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#17 Harper's Cat

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 12:35 AM

I checked out some of the websites about the Westboro Baptist Church and their leader.  It scared me.  It's appaling to think that there are people out there with that much hate and that much power.  I can understand the apparent ineptness of the lawyer now, I guess the home-grown varity don't get much experience in speaking to crowds of intelligent and well-mannered people.  Oddly enough, the Phelps family was on good terms with Clinton when he was president yet the woman said were only stopping at the school because it was on their way to the Clinton Library where they planned on protesting.
The DJ's also spoke with some of the sudents at the school and the kids were also well-spoken and good mannered.  They said that they intended to ignore the protesters and I say Bravo to those kids!  Phelps and his brain-washed brood crave attention and publicity and giving it to them only eggs the fanatics on.
I agree with Nick, gays and lesbians can be almost brutal to those who have "changed" to heterosexuality and it does seem to be their consensus that the formerly homosexual person is just fooling themselves and pretending to be something they cannot be.
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#18 Bad Wolf

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 12:56 AM

It will no doubt be unsurprising that I agree with Nick and Josh.

I'll come back later with the smites for the anti lawyer crack.   :crazy:  :hehe:  :crazy:
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#19 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 02:24 AM

Digital Man, on Nov 18 2004, 06:15 PM, said:

Lil is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO going to wipe the floor with your carcass.  :Oo:

Yes-CARCASS.

:devil:  :p  :devil:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


LMAO!

Me? I'm as innocent as a newborn baby.  :whistle:  :angel:

*runs out of the thread again before Lil gets back*
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#20 WildChildCait

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 03:40 AM

Rod, I wasn't trying to imply that YOU where trying to push anything on me...just that in general I don't like people pushing their beliefs on me.

Nothing personal intended
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