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LGBT Arkansas Anti-gay

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#21 Harper's Cat

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 02:31 PM

To hear the interview with the lawyer go here:

http://www.jonandjen...com/jjBase6.htm

you can also read some of the responses from the listeners
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#22 Nikcara

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 04:14 PM

I agree with Caddee about pushing beliefs...I didn't feel that Rod was trying to force anything, but that's simply a topic that Rod and I will have to agree to disagree with.

Basically, you can hold any view you want on gays.  I may disagree with you, but I will remain civil as long as I'm not being told that I'm going to hell or some such and rational discussion is maintained.  I won't really take issue unless I see someone actively discriminating against, insulting, or threatening another person because of their views/lifestyle.  Then things will turn nasty, as I can get very protective.
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#23 Rhea

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 08:43 PM

Dev F, on Nov 18 2004, 12:06 PM, said:

It sounds like the group in question is Westboro Baptist Church. From what I've read, they're not a real church but more of a family cult, led by the "Reverend" Fred Phelps and consisting mostly of his children and grandchildren, a lot of whom are lawyers, for some reason. Their pet issue is anti-homosexuality, and they're to the right of pretty much everyone else in the country on this issue. They picket the funerals of gay people who've died of AIDS, and are trying to erect a memorial commemorating the date on which Matthew Shepherd entered Hell, and all other sorts of astonishing awfulness.

Just do a Google search on "Westboro Baptist" for more information.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Oh, THOSE Baptists. I'm unsurprised by and, as always, completely revolted by the fact that such people can claim even a remote relationship to Christianity. I hope they burn in hell, because I suspect that's where Christ is gonna toss 'em.

Edited by Rhea, 19 November 2004 - 08:45 PM.

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#24 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 09:06 PM

Quote

First I want to say that it is people llike this who give all people of faith a bad name. Even if you disagree with homosexuality from a religious standpoint responding with hatred is not the way God calls us to deal with it.

God made humans, so yes he did make gay people, but he didn't make it them gay. Considering that heterosexuality is the way God intended, then homosexuality is an aberation from the created purpose.

Now you may wonder why God allows anything that may be against his original purpose to exist, its because he did give us free will which allows for the existence of sin and this may be a much longer discussion.

Really? I didn't know that they had published such a clear book of God's Intentions, because it seems to me that every differing opinion of Christianity tends to draw on the same book (the Bible) to support their various positions - so to my way of thinking, it's not clear what God intended at all....

But then if God intended Man to be Heterosexual - why did he make Gay animals?or even people? Homosexual relationships are clearly documented in nearly all observed species of the Animal kingdom - what makes His intentions with Mankind so different? Hubris - always smells the same way. To say that God made Homosexuals to fight against their nature and be heterosexual seems to place in God a rather pedestrian desire to see into our bedrooms (which, being omnipotent he should already know about), or even worse a desire to torment those of us whom he created to be one thing but which he then orders to do anther thing and all the while God sits back and observes our struggle (which, again, being omnipotent he should already know about....right?).

I don't mean to be a stickler, Rodglas - but you know, I've had my fill of folks telling me what God intended. Thanks just the same, but I can do without anyone else interpreting intentions for me. The road to Hell is PAVED with good intentions.

Edited by Gefiltefishmon, 19 November 2004 - 09:07 PM.

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#25 Redshirt #24

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 07:05 AM

^^^ Just to make it official: according to a blurb on the Jon and Jen site, yes, the lawyer in question was representing the Westboro Baptist "church."

Speaking for myself here: I honestly don't have any major problems with religion itself.  A lot of people want, maybe even need, to believe in something bigger than themselves.  It's some of the somewhat...confused (deluded?  deranged?) followers of whatever faith/religion that frustrate and infuriate me.  Most (if not all) religions have at least some understanding of tolerance, but it seems to get seriously lost or misunderstood or just outright ignored by these factions.  (And no, I'm certainly not talking about anybody here--we disagree like the dickens about all sorts of things, but we do so sanely and moderately.  Unless it's about television.)

Did that make any sense at all?  :(

#26 rodglas

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 07:13 AM

Quote

Genesis 2: 18

18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

Genesis 2: 22-24

22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib [10] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,

"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, [11] '
for she was taken out of man."

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

In Genesis it is quite clear that god intended heterosexual relationships in the original design.  God created people he didn't create them gay.

Quote

Leviticus 18: 6-24

6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD .
7 " 'Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
8 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father.
9 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.
10 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you.
11 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister.
12 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative.
13 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative.
14 " 'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.
15 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her.
16 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother.
17 " 'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.
18 " 'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.
19 " 'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.
20 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her.
21 " 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed [1] to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD .
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
24 " 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.

This a list if all kinds of sexual practices banned by God in the Old Testament, you can see that homsexuality is not given any special command here, it is treated like all the other sexual sins.

1 Corinthians 6: 9-18

Quote

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Sexual Immorality

12"Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."[2] 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

In this passage from the new testament shows us once again that all sexual sins are wrong and  exclusive from salvation.  This only applies to believers in Christ however.  Non believes can do what they see as right in their own eyes, but there are consequences according to what I believe.


The Bible says what it says - despite intrepetations, read the passages decide for your self if scripture is clear or not but I have no doubt on the issue.
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#27 sierraleone

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 08:45 AM

Quote

rodglas
In Genesis it is quite clear that god intended heterosexual relationships in the original design. God created people he didn't create them gay.

Yeah, I reading the bible right now.... now quite as far as any of your other quotes however. I didin't like the whole attitude towards women anyhow (and in later stories that I've read so far, women seems to be the fault of everything, other than the story of Lot and Sodom/Ghomorah.....(which, in the version I read, I don't remember them saying Sodom/Ghomorah were bad for wanting sex w/ men, it didn't state either way IIRC.... it could be they were planning on raping men, or because they're ingracious house guest.... or they refused a women given to them so kindly by her father....)

Even if he intended heterosexual relationships originally, isn't the original design of most things scraped later for edits and improvements? ;) :D

I'll read the rest of the bible before making further interpreatations of any sort. But perhaps God thought his original design was flawed ;) I mean, it only had two people, one of each gender, they didn't even have the chance for homosexual sex ;) :D (thought some how women popped out of thin air for all of their sons..... *shrugs*). Besides, somewhere further back in the thread someone said there was homosexual sex because of free will..... I don't recall any sex mentioned before being cast from Eden....
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Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
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#28 rodglas

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 11:16 AM

sierra, what version of the bible were you reading, I myself am most familiar with the New International Version (NIV) and to lesser extent the New/King James Version (N/KJV).

Sodom and Ghomorah were bad a great many immoralities, including wanting to rape men.  Here you have two sins according to the much later recored law from God -rape and homosexuality.

Quote

Even if he intended heterosexual relationships originally, isn't the original design of most things scraped later for edits and improvements?

No Genesis is pretty clear (whether taken literally or not) that before the Fall into sin everything was good (ie complete and right) and humanity was perfect.

God's original design was good (ie complete and right or without flaw).  The Fall happened because He gave us free will which was used to revolt against his good purpose.

The Bible was written in a culture where women were looked down upon, yet in actual fact my studies have shown that under the Law of God women were treated much better then in the surrounding nations.  God made specific provisions for the care of widows.

In the new testament Paul, widely treated as Christainitys earliest sexist, commands of followers,in the book of Ephesians, to love their wives as Christ loves the church - giving everthing up for her, even His life.  But that of course is a whole new thread.

Rod.

Edited by rodglas, 20 November 2004 - 03:55 PM.

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#29 Norville

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 01:46 PM

Quote

God made specific pervisions for the care of widows.

"Provisions". "Pervisions" looks dangerously close to "perversions", and I know you don't want to say that. :lol:
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Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
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#30 rodglas

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 03:54 PM

oops :p
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#31 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 05:05 PM

:eek4:  :Oo:

"To know that you do not know is best; To pretend you know when you do not know is a disease" - Lao Tzu

It also states in the bible that anyone who approaches the altar of God with a flaw in their sight (imperfect vision) is damned to hell.

It also states in the bible that it is a sin to eat shellfish.

It also states in the Bible that when a woman wears a cloth made of two different fibers she is to be stoned to death.

What about that Shrimp Cocktail I had last week? Should I go around stoning women to death for wearing mixed fabrics? According to the bible I should. But we don't do that because it's wrong, and if it can be wrong about one thing, mayhaps it can be wrong about others....
"To know that you do not know is the best. To act from the pretense that you know when you do not know is a disease" - Lao Tzu

"From All, One; and From One, All" - Heraclitus

"Let me be clear: however the world's goblet turns there will always be those drunk on the wine of the Self" - Ghalib

"A 'politically savvy challenge to evolution' is as self-evidently ridiculous as an agriculturally savvy challenge to euclidean geometry would be." - Charles Pierce

#32 Godeskian

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 05:22 PM

Dont' forget the fun stuff about stoning those who gather wood on a sunday, and the bit about stoning to death a person who uses foul language.

It is the big problem with biblical inerrancy. Not only can the bible be interpreted in various ways, but it requires an obedience to even the most inane stipulations.

But even the bible has good messages in it.

Defy Gravity!


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#33 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 05:31 PM

StevenQ the bible has some GREAT messages in it.
Among them:

Turn the Other cheek...

Love they Neighbor...

Don't Kill...

Don't Steal...

Don't covet your neighbors yak...

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...

The ENTIRE story of Job....

Lot's of good things in there...
"To know that you do not know is the best. To act from the pretense that you know when you do not know is a disease" - Lao Tzu

"From All, One; and From One, All" - Heraclitus

"Let me be clear: however the world's goblet turns there will always be those drunk on the wine of the Self" - Ghalib

"A 'politically savvy challenge to evolution' is as self-evidently ridiculous as an agriculturally savvy challenge to euclidean geometry would be." - Charles Pierce

#34 Godeskian

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 05:33 PM

Agreed. It also has some very bad ones, condoning racial hierarchies, sexism, bigotry, warmongering and genocide.

Not to mention that nasty apocalypse that the religious extemists always seem so very happy to tell me i'm going to suffer in.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#35 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 05:50 PM

Hell won't be that bad, wot? I'll have lot's of friends there and I'm told the weather is balmy. Plus I reckon it will be nice to work for my mother again....
"To know that you do not know is the best. To act from the pretense that you know when you do not know is a disease" - Lao Tzu

"From All, One; and From One, All" - Heraclitus

"Let me be clear: however the world's goblet turns there will always be those drunk on the wine of the Self" - Ghalib

"A 'politically savvy challenge to evolution' is as self-evidently ridiculous as an agriculturally savvy challenge to euclidean geometry would be." - Charles Pierce

#36 sierraleone

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 05:57 PM

Quote

rodglas
sierra, what version of the bible were you reading, I myself am most familiar with the New International Version (NIV) and to lesser extent the New/King James Version (N/KJV).

I took it out of the library (I should probably buy my own copy, this will take me too long to read ;) :D and incurr me a lot of late fees :D ). "The New English Bible" (w/ Apocrypha)

Quote

Sodom and Ghomorah were bad a great many immoralities, including wanting to rape men.  Here you have two sins according to the much later recored law from God -rape and homosexuality.

And I didn't like Lot offering his daughter  :blink: As someone it was thought to somehow be better or closer to God's plan I assume, or its trying to say Homosexual sex/ape is worse than Heterosexual rape/sex outside of marriage.

Quote

Quote

Even if he intended heterosexual relationships originally, isn't the original design of most things scraped later for edits and improvements?

No Genesis is pretty clear (whether taken literally or not) that before the Fall into sin everything was good (ie complete and right) and humanity was perfect.

God's original design was good (ie complete and right or without flaw).  The Fall happened because He gave us free will which was used to revolt against his good purpose.

If Freewill was in the original design, and all of the original design was perfect, then doesn't it follow that everything that results from it is perfect? There were no children before the fall, I suppose that is imperfect, or did Adam and Eve not have enough time to have children before the Apple? Seems unlikely, considering what God says to them after they eat from the tree.. Also, everything was perfect before they ate from the tree of knowlegde, is knowlegde bad too? There are too many ifs and I still see many possible takes on it.

Quote

The Bible was written in a culture where women were looked down upon, yet in actual fact my studies have shown that under the Law of God women were treated much better then in the surrounding nations.  God made specific provisions for the care of widows.

In the new testament Paul, widely treated as Christainitys earliest sexist, commands of followers,in the book of Ephesians, to love their wives as Christ loves the church - giving everthing up for her, even His life.  But that of course is a whole new thread.

Rod.

Under the law of God as in the ten Commandments and other things in the bible, or under the laws of the people who follow the Jewish/Christain God? So everything men did before Christ and the new testament was God faring except sexual relations w/ men.... And looking at the women of God's men from what I can tell so far (still in Genisis though, only have read up until Dinah (daughter of Jacob, the first daughter mentioned IIRC ;) :D).
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#37 Josh

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 06:03 PM

I'm looking forward to hell, personally since several Christians I've met have told me I'm going to enjoy living there once I've died. ;)

I'll get to join the other 90% of the human population! YES! I won't be alone!

Edited by Josh, 20 November 2004 - 06:03 PM.

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#38 Gvambat

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 10:43 PM

^ See you there.

:p
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#39 Shalamar

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Posted 21 November 2004 - 10:35 AM

I much prefer a stay in the summer lands then coming back...
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#40 Nonny

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Posted 21 November 2004 - 03:40 PM

rodglas, on Nov 20 2004, 08:16 AM, said:

The Bible was written in a culture where women were looked down upon, yet in actual fact my studies have shown that under the Law of God women were treated much better then in the surrounding nations.  God made specific provisions for the care of widows.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In places where widows are forced into marriage with their dead husbands' brothers, the Bible is cited at the reason.  That's not a kind of care that I would care for!   :(

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