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College aid cut in new spending bill

Education College aid Spending cuts

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#21 Cardie

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Posted 23 November 2004 - 07:18 PM

Anakam, on Nov 23 2004, 03:41 PM, said:

I'm confused.  Pell grants are getting cut before the grants for somewhat higher-income families?

*boggle*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


As I read it, Pell grants are being cut or phased out for the top income levels still eligible for Pells rather than Stafford loans.  It annoys me that these cutbacks are being done purely by arbitrary income cut-off.  There are students on Pells who frankly have little interest in working hard enough to get a college degree that means anything.  But they get themselves into economic situations in which they (and sometimes their parents) get used to having the Pell living expenses added to the family income, and they can't afford to have those payments stop.  So they keep taking a full load they can't handle in order to keep the maximum financial aid coming in.  I'd like to see swift cutoffs of Pells the minute a student drops below a C or C+ average, rather than denying the funds completely to someone else who might earn As and Bs but now can't get tuition grants at all.

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#22 Rov Judicata

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Posted 23 November 2004 - 07:45 PM

The solution seems to be increased loans; that way, the money comes back at some point. If you're going to college, you should be able to justify the expense with the increased value of your debt. By the time I'm done getting my JD in 2008, I'll have about $100,000 in debt (not a typo: One hundred thousand dollars), but it'll be worth it.

And I think Cardie is on to something too re: How and when Pell Grants are cut.

Edited by Hotspur Rovinski, 23 November 2004 - 07:49 PM.

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#23 Josh

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Posted 23 November 2004 - 07:51 PM

I guess I got my degree at the right time then. While my tuition for four and a half years was just slightly under $90,000, I don't have much more than $4,500 in loans I have to pay off. I was gifted with a generous amount of grants.

Still, this is bad news for any potential college-goer. :(
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#24 Delvo

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Posted 23 November 2004 - 07:51 PM

Very few graduates will ever in their lives be able to pay off a loan of the gargantuine sizes we're facing. Not only are incomes of graduates' jobs created unequal, but you also can't assume the graduates won't have things just plain go wrong for them after graduation to knock them off of their career paths.

#25 Chipper

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Posted 23 November 2004 - 08:24 PM

And while all this is happening, college presidents are stuffing their coffers with ridiculous paychecks.

Ask the one who heads the state university right near me, where my parents are employed.  ask her how much money she has taken away from research and othe rprojects.  for what?  to fill her chest w/ money.

Lower the damn salaries of the bureaucrats before making us pay more.
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#26 Nick

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Posted 23 November 2004 - 08:31 PM

Let me start this by saying that I have never received one cent of federal aid.  I (had) one private scholarship, which was discontinued this past year because the fund ran out of money, and had to make up the difference w/ student loans.  By the time I'm done, I'll be all of $10,000 in debt.  I've worked my way through college.  Sure, my parents have helped me significantly--but I've still paid for the bulk of my education out of my own pockets.  There are those who are fortunate enough for their families to pay thier entire costs, and others who are forunate for private scholarships and federal funding to pay their ways.

So, my first reaction is "go ahead and cut it".  Subsidies don't work--as some have said--it just inflates the bottom lines artificially.  Although, those who have no other means depend on them.

So, if these grants were cut as an across-the-board tightening of the belt, you know, I wouldn't really have a problem with it.  But the sheer quantity of pork that comes out of Capitol Hill is still appalling.  Republicans and Democrats alike allow hideous abuses of taxpayer dollars to go on, and they have the nerve to justify underfunding programs like this.

I long for the day that enough people start paying attention to what their elected officials are actually pulling to vote the bastards out of office.  I long for the day when at least one of the parties is actually fiscally conservative (the Republicans used to claim that, didn't they?  Whatever.)

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Edited by Nick, 23 November 2004 - 08:33 PM.


#27 QueenTiye

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Posted 23 November 2004 - 08:56 PM

But is aid actually being cut across the board, or will the military still subsidize education for soldiers?  Cardie's statement is very real to me - when I was in college many kids were there on ROTC scholarships.  And, I know a few parents of kids in Iraq who never thought they were going to war - they signed up for ROTC to fund school, got trained in fields that aren't necessarily front lines stuff, and didn't anticipate heading out to war, except as a remote possibility.  

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#28 Caretaker

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Posted 23 November 2004 - 11:49 PM

Delvo, on Nov 23 2004, 06:51 PM, said:

Very few graduates will ever in their lives be able to pay off a loan of the gargantuine sizes we're facing. Not only are incomes of graduates' jobs created unequal, but you also can't assume the graduates won't have things just plain go wrong for them after graduation to knock them off of their career paths.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Damn straight.  I've been out for slightly over a year, I moved back home (and get cheaper rent then by way of an apartment from my parents) to lessen the impact and shock until I found a good well-paying job.  And I have yet to find the aforementioned good, well-paying job (I've gotten a few, inbetween, short-term temp jobs).  Things are not good right now.

Maybe I should start preparing to ask whether I'd like things Supersized.

I digress, though.

Basically, things aren't good.  And I pray for future generations.

#29 JchaosRS

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Posted 24 November 2004 - 12:59 AM

Chipper, on Nov 23 2004, 06:24 PM, said:

And while all this is happening, college presidents are stuffing their coffers with ridiculous paychecks.

Ask the one who heads the state university right near me, where my parents are employed.  ask her how much money she has taken away from research and othe rprojects.  for what?  to fill her chest w/ money.

Lower the damn salaries of the bureaucrats before making us pay more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Thank You!
This is always my biggest problem.  All of the local public schools in the district are cutting programs, getting rid of teachers, enlarging class sizes, and pay all faculty and staff baerly anything. Yet all of the administrators and superintentants are making outragous amounts of money.

The same thing happens on the college level. And every where else.

Quote

I have never received one cent of federal aid. I (had) one private scholarship, which was discontinued this past year because the fund ran out of money, and had to make up the difference w/ student loans. By the time I'm done, I'll be all of $10,000 in debt. I've worked my way through college. Sure, my parents have helped me significantly--but I've still paid for the bulk of my education out of my own pockets. There are those who are fortunate enough for their families to pay thier entire costs, and others who are forunate for private scholarships and federal funding to pay their ways.

Students like me (most of the student in the area) arent using grants and private schoalarships to pay thiier way. But to use them to help a tiny bit. But every little bit helps. Wow, a whole 10,000. Multiply that number by ten and then tell me how you feel about your debt and being able to pay for it.

I am not getting any family conrtibutions or family assistance paying for college and I hate the fact that they go by your families income. What about my income? Im the one who has to pay.

Besides there is no garentee that you'll find a job after you graduate thats better than the one you had while going to school. So how do you expect to pay so much when making so little?

Quote

But the sheer quantity of pork that comes out of Capitol Hill is still appalling. Republicans and Democrats alike allow hideous abuses of taxpayer dollars to go on, and they have the nerve to justify underfunding programs like this.

I long for the day that enough people start paying attention to what their elected officials are actually pulling to vote the bastards out of office.

Couldnt agreee more.
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#30 Spectacles

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Posted 24 November 2004 - 06:34 PM

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Nick: But the sheer quantity of pork that comes out of Capitol Hill is still appalling. Republicans and Democrats alike allow hideous abuses of taxpayer dollars to go on, and they have the nerve to justify underfunding programs like this.

Amen. And speaking of pork, check this out:

http://story.news.ya...ored_projects_9

Quote

AP: Budget Has Room for Special Projects

Wed Nov 24, 2:50 AM ET   Top Stories - AP


By SHARON THEIMER, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Austerity in big-ticket government programs hasn't dulled lawmakers' appetite for special interest spending items that curry favor back home.



The spending plan awaiting President Bush (news - web sites)'s signature is packed with them, doling out $4 million for an Alabama fertilizer development center, $1 million each for a Norwegian American Foundation in Seattle and a "Wild American Shrimp Initiative," and more, much more.


Despite soaring deficits, lawmakers from both parties who approved the $388 billion package last weekend set plenty of money aside for home-district projects like these, knowing they sow goodwill among special interests and voters.


They also raised the ire of Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), R-Ariz., a pork-barrel critic who took to the Senate floor to ask whether shrimp are so unruly and lacking initiative that the government must spend $1 million on them.


"Why does the U.S. taxpayer need to fund this `no shrimp left behind' act?" he asked.


Among items in the package: $335,000 to protect North Dakota's sunflowers from blackbirds, $2.3 million for an animal waste management research lab in Bowling Green, Ky., $50,000 to control wild hogs in Missouri, and $443,000 to develop salmon-fortified baby food.


Sen. Richard Shelby (news, bio, voting record), an Alabama Republican who serves on the Senate Appropriations Committee, won dozens of special items for his state — enough to fill 20 press releases.


In one aimed at northern Alabama, Shelby took credit for the $4 million budgeted for the International Fertilizer Development Center. "In addition to the important research conducted at this facility, the facility employs numerous Muscle Shoals-area residents," he noted.


Government watchdog Frank Clemente contends such special spending — often based more on a lawmaker's clout on appropriations committees than on objective factors such as a state's population — winds up costing even those who win a new road, park or research project.


"I think that's the biggest unfortunate thing about these special earmarks — they eat up billions of dollars," said Clemente, spokesman for Public Citizen. "Meanwhile they're cutting billions of dollars for environmental programs, or education programs or cops on the beat or what have you. That's kind of the unintended effect or the secret effect of these programs."


The time-honored practice flourished despite the ballooning national debt, less money for federal programs and rising concern about how government will finance the futures of Medicare and Social Security (news - web sites).


When Bush first took office, he vowed to cut pet projects from the federal budget, but the president has yet to veto a single spending bill. He is expected to sign the new plan as well.

That's about half the story. If you go to the link above, you'll see other examples of pork. I heard someone from a taxpayer watchdog group say today that these huge spending bills are larded with an average of something like 1100 "special projects" that add up to over a billion bucks in taxpayer money. It's infuriating and it needs to be stopped. They also need to stop this practice of voting on a 3000 page budget that they've received only three hours before the vote.

Edited by Spectacles, 24 November 2004 - 06:43 PM.

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#31 Spectacles

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Posted 24 November 2004 - 06:48 PM

Corrrection: the pork spending is about ten times worse than what I indicated above.
http://www.usatoday...._pork22.art.htm

Excerpt:

Quote

Budget bill has $15.8B in extras
Passage delayed over tax privacy, abortion
By Peronet Despeignes
USA TODAY

Supporters of a $388 billion spending bill passed by Congress over the weekend call it a lean measure that restrains domestic spending.

“I'm very proud of the fact that we held the line and made Congress make choices and set priorities, because it follows our philosophy,” House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, said.

A look at the fine print in the legislation, however, reveals more than 11,000 “earmarks” that add up to about $15.8 billion, or about 4% of the overall spending. Earmarks are money set aside for special projects. These include $300,000 for a parking garage in Auburn, Maine, $8 million to rehabilitate a “historic cafeteria building” in Oregon's Crater Lake National Park and $1.1 million for research into the development of baby food and other products made from salmon.

“We heard a lot about how this bill is fiscally responsible,” said Keith Ashdown, vice president of the non-partisan watchdog group Taxpayers for Common Sense. “The facts speak for themselves.”

In an unusual Saturday session, the lame-duck House of Representatives and Senate approved the spending bill, a 14-pound document that few lawmakers had time to read. More than 1,000 pages and seven weeks late, the bill set fiscal 2005 funding levels for 13 departments and dozens of agencies — almost all federal spending outside of the military, Medicare, Social Security and interest on the national debt.

Big increases for NASA, some low-income housing programs, the National Institutes of Health and other programs were offset by cuts for the State Department, federal air traffic controllers, the National Science Foundation and certain environmental and low-income education programs.

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#32 John Galt

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Posted 24 November 2004 - 08:47 PM

I'm wondering if anyone could answer the following questions:

1. Why should the American taxpayer (by way of the US government) help pay for your education?

2. Are alternatives to a guaranteed check once a semester possible...ie: working through college?

3. Have you considered/investigated a college or university that doesn't charge the cost of the average brick home each semester?

4. Building on #3, do you equate the cost of your education to the quality of your education?

5. Is it completely necessary to graduate from a university in order to live the life you want?  More precisely, does everyone deserve to go to college and therefore be subsidized by a government that cannot even pay its own bills?
"Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction - which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good."            —Ayn Rand

#33 sierraleone

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Posted 24 November 2004 - 11:08 PM

Quote

John Galt
I'm wondering if anyone could answer the following questions:

Well I'm not an American citizen but I'll answer from my perspective (and considering I live in a socialist leaning country .... ;) )

1. Why should the American taxpayer (by way of the US government) help pay for your education?

Through some sort of enlightened self interest?? Or at least concern for your children's generation.... At the very least I not want my money to go towards someone's education then the things Spectacles has mentioned....

2. Are alternatives to a guaranteed check once a semester possible...ie: working through college?

I guess it depend on how taxing their courses are, if they are trying a 7 yr run through University to become a specialist they don't want to make that longer than they have too ;) :) Some people are able to do University Course, but are not able to handle full time University courses at the same time as a full time job.... (not to mention I don't think most jobs they could get would support the tuition fees) and part time University can add yrs to graduating....

3. Have you considered/investigated a college or university that doesn't charge the cost of the average brick home each semester?

4. Building on #3, do you equate the cost of your education to the quality of your education?

Some might see it that way, if a field you are trying to get into hires 70 % of the Graduates in your disipline from one University, and 30 % from another that puts out the same amount of graduates, which school are you going to try to attend? A school that has more money generally has more resources I would think, and they pass those costs onto the students....

5. Is it completely necessary to graduate from a university in order to live the life you want?  More precisely, does everyone deserve to go to college and therefore be subsidized by a government that cannot even pay its own bills?

The American Dream ..... and how about some of them are picking a kind of job they *want* which required an Education, because they'll love the job, not the paycheck? Also, its near impossible to find a good job w/ out *some* college education. If you have no education these days, might as well as apply at the nearest fast food restaurant.... not that its not the case for some, some naturally have great work ethic & leadership ability and quickly climb the ranks in that kind of enviroment.... but working at a min wage job because I didn't bother getting *some* education? I'd rather not.....

Edit: There are just too many variables to try to prescribe one way of doing things for everyone.

Edited by sierraleone, 24 November 2004 - 11:12 PM.

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#34 John Galt

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Posted 24 November 2004 - 11:48 PM

sierraleone, on Nov 24 2004, 10:08 PM, said:

Through some sort of enlightened self interest?? Or at least concern for your children's generation.... At the very least I not want my money to go towards someone's education then the things Spectacles has mentioned....

With the term "enlightened self-interest" who says what's enlightened?  

If my tax dollars go to the funding of an educational system I don't believe in and do not support and produce "educated" individuals who don't produce anything to justify the investment, why should I contribute to that?

Let's examine the quality of that educational system a little closer:

Who determines the makeup of the curriculum?  What if the curriculum consists of ideals I disagree with?  That's funded with my tax dollars. Do I get my money back?  I think not.

Who determines whether an individual has/has not learned enough from that curriculum to justify receiving/not receiving the diploma? If I am a businessman who hires someone straight out of college (and I helped fund his "education" through taxes) and it turns out he doesn't know a damn thing about his job, what guarantee on the investment do I get?

That's not "enlightened self-interest."  That's blind optimism and it's stupid.

Besides "enlightened self-interest" can you explain why I should be responsible in any way for the education of someone else when he/she has no direct impact on my life...desired or undesired?  Am I directly responsible for feeding, clothing or medicating such an individual?  The answer is no; therefore, why should I help pay for their education?  Should I desire to do so, I have no problem helping a young person achieve their dreams, but being robbed at gunpoint every April to fund such an endeavor isn't my cup of tea, and I applaud those who had the nerve to cut funding.

Quote

I guess it depend on how taxing their courses are, if they are trying a 7 yr run through University to become a specialist they don't want to make that longer than they have too ;) :) Some people are able to do University Course, but are not able to handle full time University courses at the same time as a full time job.... (not to mention I don't think most jobs they could get would support the tuition fees) and part time University can add yrs to graduating....

It is my understanding the average age of a PhD candidate in the US defending his dissertation is 38.  Considering that one normally enters college at 18, that's quite a span.  To expect government funding to carry one from high school through graduate school is the equivalent of me showing up on your doorstep three times a day for a full meal.  Of course, you probably prefer not to see me dead from starvation in the gutter, but are you really going to tolerate my behavior (especially given my voracious appetite)?  If one wants that level of education badly enough and is capable of achieving it, he/she will find a way.  Given a lack of government funds, if one is smart enough to handle difficult curriculums, but not smart enough to find a way to finance it, I don't think much of his intelligence level.

Quote

Some might see it that way, if a field you are trying to get into hires 70 % of the Graduates in your disipline from one University, and 30 % from another that puts out the same amount of graduates, which school are you going to try to attend? A school that has more money generally has more resources I would think, and they pass those costs onto the students....

Of course you want the former school...that only makes sense.  But if you cannot afford that school, isn't it more realistic to go with the latter example and shoot for the best?

Trust me: not everyone is going to get exactly what they want, and it's not the role of the government to make such a scenario happen.  We've become spoiled with the idea of the government taking care of us.  Now they're withdrawing the teat and there's screaming.

Quote

The American Dream ..... and how about some of them are picking a kind of job they *want* which required an Education, because they'll love the job, not the paycheck? Also, its near impossible to find a good job w/ out *some* college education. If you have no education these days, might as well as apply at the nearest fast food restaurant.... not that its not the case for some, some naturally have great work ethic & leadership ability and quickly climb the ranks in that kind of enviroment.... but working at a min wage job because I didn't bother getting *some* education? I'd rather not.....

Maybe everyone doesn't need a B.S. or B.A.  Someone has to flamebroil my Whopper.

Quote

Edit: There are just too many variables to try to prescribe one way of doing things for everyone.

But there is one way: everyone has a right to life, liberty and property.  The role of the government is to make sure no one takes those rights from you.  You have a right to pursue an education to the level of your own competence.  So long as you do not harm or steal from anyone else, how you accomplish it is your own business.  Use your brain, work for it, sell your body.  I don't care.  But forcibly taking my tax dollars and using it without my consent to fund someone's education is no better than armed robbery.

Edited by John Galt, 24 November 2004 - 11:50 PM.

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#35 sierraleone

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Posted 24 November 2004 - 11:59 PM

^ Your money goes towards lots of things you might rather it not, perhaps from Welfare to lining Politicians over-stuffed pockets....

Chances are you don't mind your money going towards someone's primary or secondary eduction....

I don't live in America.... are these like Loans and expected to be paid back?
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#36 John Galt

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 12:16 AM

sierraleone, on Nov 24 2004, 10:59 PM, said:

^ Your money goes towards lots of things you might rather it not, perhaps from Welfare to lining Politicians over-stuffed pockets....

You're exactly right.

Quote

Chances are you don't mind your money going towards someone's primary or secondary eduction....

You're exactly wrong.  Apparently you didn't read my posts clearly enough...or I wasn't clear enough.  Either way, let's nail it down: the government's role is to protect our rights, not indoctrinate us.  Taking our money by force to "educate" our children within parameters defined by individuals who are themselves a product of that same system and not directly chosen by us is evil.

Quote

I don't live in America.... are these like Loans and expected to be paid back?

Pell grants are like scholarships...you don't have to pay them back.  Once you enter Graduate school, the Pell goes away, and you must find alternate funding.  Some get fellowships...most use student loans which they must repay.
"Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction - which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good."            —Ayn Rand

#37 Chakotay

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 05:46 AM

Without state-sponsored education, so many people would not get the opportunity to discover and hopefully achieve their full potential.

That child in the poor family may have the natural smarts to be a great engineer, or doctor, but without access to an educational system that looks for  the ability of the child to become something, and not the ability of the family to pay, society as a whole will be deprived of the benefits of those skills.

Edited by Chakotay, 25 November 2004 - 05:48 AM.

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#38 Nonny

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 12:11 PM

Spectacles, on Nov 24 2004, 03:34 PM, said:

Quote

Nick: But the sheer quantity of pork that comes out of Capitol Hill is still appalling. Republicans and Democrats alike allow hideous abuses of taxpayer dollars to go on, and they have the nerve to justify underfunding programs like this.

Amen. And speaking of pork, check this out:

http://story.news.ya...ored_projects_9

Quote

They also raised the ire of Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), R-Ariz., a pork-barrel critic who took to the Senate floor to ask whether shrimp are so unruly and lacking initiative that the government must spend $1 million on them.


"Why does the U.S. taxpayer need to fund this `no shrimp left behind' act?" he asked.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bless his heart.  I like this guy.   :hehe:

Nonny

Yet again, editing due to messed up quote boxes.   :pout:

Edited by Nonny, 25 November 2004 - 12:13 PM.

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#39 Nonny

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 12:30 PM

John Galt, on Nov 24 2004, 05:47 PM, said:

I'm wondering if anyone could answer the following questions:

1. Why should the American taxpayer (by way of the US government) help pay for your education?

2. Are alternatives to a guaranteed check once a semester possible...ie: working through college?

3. Have you considered/investigated a college or university that doesn't charge the cost of the average brick home each semester?

4. Building on #3, do you equate the cost of your education to the quality of your education?

5. Is it completely necessary to graduate from a university in order to live the life you want?  More precisely, does everyone deserve to go to college and therefore be subsidized by a government that cannot even pay its own bills?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's been five and a half years since I was booted from my MA program because of my disabilities, but I'll give it a go:

1. Because it's in our national interest to have the best and the brightest continue their education, no matter their gender, race, color, whatever.  When only rich boys get to get ahead, we get a lot of dead weight at the top of each profession.  

2. It's called Work Study and, unless I've very mistaken, it's already taken terrible cuts and is facing more.  

3. Even state universities are jacking their fees higher, plus landlords ringing campuses with insufficient housing are charging outrageous rent for substandard apartments.  If the fees don't get you, the housing costs do.  

4. No, but future employers sure do.  

5. I could not have lived the life I wanted with my BA.  I had to get the MA just to teach English (the fate of most linguists :pout: ) at a community college, and, with my disabilities, I could only have taught part time anyway.  I am now living the life I wanted but didn't imagine I'd ever achieve on my VA pension.  If work not requiring a college degree were respected, if bosses of blue collar workers were decent, good-hearted people who didn't scream at anybody they wanted to any time they felt like it, maybe more people would be happy to do the work they really want to do instead of something they think will pay them more.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#40 Nonny

Nonny

    Scourge of Pretentious Bad Latin

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 12:43 PM

John Galt, on Nov 24 2004, 08:48 PM, said:

It is my understanding the average age of a PhD candidate in the US defending his dissertation is 38.  Considering that one normally enters college at 18, that's quite a span.  To expect government funding to carry one from high school through graduate school ....

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The reason it's taking so long for the PhD is that grad students can't survive without jobs, so many of them become full time employees and part time students.  With cuts in class offerings, often they have to wait years for a required class to come around again.  Also, many grad students don't go straight into grad school upon graduation, but work at some job too demanding to allow them to take even one class at a time until they make enough to quit and go back to school.  Then there are the returning warriors, like me, coming back to school at an advanced age.  Amd the women who've left abusive husbands and don't want to be stuck on welfare.  All of this jacks up that PhD age.

John Galt, on Nov 24 2004, 08:48 PM, said:

Maybe everyone doesn't need a B.S. or B.A.  Someone has to flamebroil my Whopper.

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That's what PhD candidates are for.  ;)  (Hey, I coulda made a Dubya joke!  :rolleyes: )  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot



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