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This Is John Galt Speaking.

OT Member John Galt Philosophy

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#21 Norville

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 11:35 PM

Want doughnuts? Oh, good. *tosses some into the air as I exit thread*
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Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
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#22 John Galt

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 11:39 PM

Norville, on Nov 28 2004, 10:29 PM, said:

Honestly, I've never had the strength to tackle one of Ayn Rand's huge screeds that pass as novels. If we've got a guy who posts as her character John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, I don't think I have the strength to go on reading his posts, either. Either that, or I may actually be arsed to get around to reading AS, but I suspect not -- I've avoided it for 18 years of working with books; I can probably avoid it for another 18 years! :lol:

(I should add that, no, the Nietzscheans in "Andromeda" didn't inspire me to endure Rand, either, and I know just enough Nietzsche to last me a while. ;) )

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Yeah, well...you could do worse.  Nietzsche, for example. Anything written by a man who suffered chronic migraines has to be ponderous.

I think the main reason supposedly intelligent people avoid Rand is because you can come to the quick realization that you either identify with her heroes or you identify with the other people she's talking about.   I understand Dracula smashed or covered mirrors.
"Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction - which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good."            —Ayn Rand

#23 John Galt

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 11:43 PM

Norville, on Nov 28 2004, 10:35 PM, said:

Want doughnuts? Oh, good. *tosses some into the air as I exit thread*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Right, any other Mensa-worthy comments to make, or should I mark you down for the short bus?

Edited by John Galt, 28 November 2004 - 11:47 PM.

"Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction - which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good."            —Ayn Rand

#24 Vapor Trails

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 11:49 PM

DWF, on Nov 28 2004, 11:00 PM, said:

Carl, on Nov 28 2004, 10:54 PM, said:

MuseZack, on Nov 28 2004, 10:42 PM, said:

Digital Man, you sly dog, you got him monologuing!   :lol:
LOL! :lol:

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Yeah it's pretty incredible isn't? ;)

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#25 Nikcara

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 11:54 PM

waterpanther, on Nov 29 2004, 04:21 AM, said:

Oh, good grief.  I continue to be amazed by people who think Ayn Rand was a philosopher and not just a bad novelist.

Waterpanther

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Ok, that just made me laugh.

I've read Nietzsche, and really I kept getting the impression that he really needed a hug.  I've been meaning to read Ayn Rand for a few years now...and oddly enough kept finding better things to do.
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#26 Vapor Trails

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 11:55 PM

Oh, and about Rand...

I did like THE FOUNTAINHEAD. Also, Neil Peart of Rush was inspired enough by her work to write the band's "2112" album, back in 1976.

I haven't read the rest of Rand's work yet-but I'll give it a shot, when I have time. I have to finish 4 books: Harlan Ellison's EDGEWORKS, VOLUME 3, the 9/11 Report, AIRFAME, by Michael Criton (sp?), and an Ed McBain detective novel-who's name escapes me at the moment.

:cool:
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Politicians are like bananas; they hang together, they're all yellow, and there's not a straight one among them.

"We're relevant for $ and a vote once every two years. Beyond that, we're completely irrelevant, except of course to consume, and preach the gospel according to [insert political demigod here]."--Cait

#27 John Galt

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 11:56 PM

Edited because you exceeded my expectations.  Thank you.

DM said:

I did like THE FOUNTAINHEAD. Also, Neil Peart of Rush was inspired enough by her work to write the band's "2112" album, back in 1976.

I haven't read the rest of Rand's work yet-but I'll give it a shot, when I have time. I have to finish 4 books: Harlan Ellison's EDGEWORKS, VOLUME 3, the 9/11 Report, AIRFAME, by Michael Criton (sp?), and an Ed McBain detective novel-who's name escapes me at the moment.

By all means read AS...I think you will like it if you liked Fountainhead.

Edited by John Galt, 28 November 2004 - 11:59 PM.

"Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction - which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good."            —Ayn Rand

#28 John Galt

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 12:04 AM

Nikcara, on Nov 28 2004, 10:54 PM, said:

Ok, that just made me laugh.

Well, some people are just easily amused.

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I've read Nietzsche, and really I kept getting the impression that he really needed a hug.

Actually, he needed some codeine.  He suffered from raging migraines, and that's why his stuff reads like it was written in short sections...he wrote about a page a day because that was all he was capable of doing.  That's why Thus Spake Zarathrustra makes little sense.

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I've been meaning to read Ayn Rand for a few years now...and oddly enough kept finding better things to do.

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Well, I understand there's a lot out there to keep you amused, but get yourself a copy of Atlas Shrugged and read it.  The only ones who come away from it ambivalent are lobotomy patients.

Edited by John Galt, 29 November 2004 - 01:38 AM.

"Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction - which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good."            —Ayn Rand

#29 MuseZack

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 12:14 AM

Officer Barbrady: "Yes, at first I was happy to be learning how to read. It seemed exciting and magical, but then I read this: 'Atlas Shrugged' by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of s**t, I am never reading again."
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We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
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#30 John Galt

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 12:17 AM

Yup, Zack, you totally negated everything I said with a quote from a cartoon aimed at the lowest common denominator.  My god, but you are brutally intelligent! :sarcasm:

Not.

Edited by John Galt, 29 November 2004 - 12:20 AM.

"Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction - which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good."            —Ayn Rand

#31 Bad Wolf

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 12:30 AM

I read The Fountainhead in 2001 and tried to read Atlas Shrugged after that.  I really liked The Fountainhead back then but I think I'd like to read it again now.  Atlas Shrugged, I am sad to say, bored me.  I got through about half of it and well, it was boring.  It was boring prose about boring people and purported to teach a "morality" that I found...boring.

Having said that does not automatically mean that I disagree with your entire post John Galt.  I'm too tired right now to properly digest it but maybe I can deal with it tomorrow.  Anyways, this is the best thread I've seen around here in OT in a while.

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#32 John Galt

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 12:32 AM

GoldenCoal, on Nov 28 2004, 08:40 PM, said:

That was an interesting read. I have one question, though, what happens when if you don't deny someone else their rights, then you will die, and if you do, then you will live. Would you then be in the midst of a situation where whatever you do you are immoral, or is there some way out of that?

Goldencoal, I'm sorry.  Your post got lost in each successive wave of highly intelligent and well-thought-out posts that followed from others.  Again, my apologies.

That's a helluva question, and I'm going to give you my answer.  This is my answer, and other Objectivists may disagree.

Here's an example: suppose you and I are trapped somewhere where there is one morsel of food left, and that without that food both of us will die.  If neither of us have a good claim to that morsel, then it's up for grabs, and we have to decide who gets it.  But if it's yours, then by rights I cannot take it from you and I will die.

However, if that's truly the last morsel of food available, then whether or not you eat it isn't going to save you, or taking it from you won't ultimately save me, so the morsel is really just a red herring and I will refuse to take it from you on moral grounds.

Could you give another example for further address?

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By the way, what does it mean that you're "the Destroyer?" Where did this philosophy come from?

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Because it sounds better than "I'm here to burst your bubble." :)  People generally don't like being shown reality...and you can see the evidence of that.
"Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction - which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good."            —Ayn Rand

#33 John Galt

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 12:34 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Nov 28 2004, 11:30 PM, said:

I read The Fountainhead in 2001 and tried to read Atlas Shrugged after that.  I really liked The Fountainhead back then but I think I'd like to read it again now.  Atlas Shrugged, I am sad to say, bored me.  I got through about half of it and well, it was boring.  It was boring prose about boring people and purported to teach a "morality" that I found...boring.

Having said that does not automatically mean that I disagree with your entire post John Galt.  I'm too tired right now to properly digest it but maybe I can deal with it tomorrow.  Anyways, this is the best thread I've seen around here in OT in a while.

Lil

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Thank you for an honest and intelligent answer. Come back when you're well rested and we'll talk.
"Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction - which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good."            —Ayn Rand

#34 Godeskian

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 01:19 AM

I appear to be coming late to the party.

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I have the absolute right to survive. I have the absolute right to take the appropriate steps to ensure my survival. I have the absolute right to protect what I acquire in order to ensure my survival, so long as I deny no one else their rights. This is morality.

What upholds life is moral. The basis of morality is the existence of the human being. Nothing more

I like this. While I personally don't support the rest of your philosophy, I do respect it. This particular part can certainly support.

I have one question thought, if you don't mind. I've seen people with very similar philosophies over the years, and in almost all cases, it was not something they came by untill some great upheaval in their life brought them face to face with the need for a new way of doing things.

Did you follow a similar path, or did you come by this world view less drastically?

#35 John Galt

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 01:34 AM

Steven_Q, on Nov 29 2004, 12:19 AM, said:

I appear to be coming late to the party.

Fashionably late? :)

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I like this. While I personally don't support the rest of your philosophy, I do respect it.

Well, that's a first step.

BTW, I'm not saying never, ever give to charities, help old ladies across streets, etc.  Do it if you want to do it.  Just remember any act that's not in your best interests just might have a hidden angle to it...so think carefully.


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I have one question thought, if you don't mind. I've seen people with very similar philosophies over the years, and in almost all cases, it was not something they came by untill some great upheaval in their life brought them face to face with the need for a new way of doing things.

That's because Objectivism is rooted in reality, and that absolutely unnerves some people while others recognize it for what it is.

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Did you follow a similar path, or did you come by this world view less drastically?

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I was introduced to it as a child by a mentor.  I've lived by its principles for decades, and guess what?  I'm filthy stinking rich...rich enough that I can sit around playing on the internet and not feel pressed for time...and I'm happy. :D I can finance any five of those whiners in the other thread for the Ivy League school of their choice...and that's no bull.

Edited by John Galt, 29 November 2004 - 01:35 AM.

"Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction - which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good."            —Ayn Rand

#36 Natasha Bennett

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 02:02 AM

Huh-that's funny, I can't actually think of much to say because some of it makes perfect sense. :eek4: A point though...

-Going back to the scenario with you/someone else trapped in a mine with only a morsel of food for a moment-moralistically, you're not going to take it. But the survivor in you will because it's the last possible option left to you. When it comes to survival, morals pretty much go out the window IMO. Even if it probably won't save your life, you will try anyway.

Just that one observation for now. I have to read this over again tomorrow. :)

#37 Natasha Bennett

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 02:15 AM

Another question-where does the greater power (a.ka. the government) come into this? For example say I worked at a high-paying job when suddenly the government slashes my salary by fourty percent (or takes away benefits, or whatever) essentially this is stealing, but there is nothing that can be done about it, either.

#38 Bouree57

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 02:33 AM

I've never read Atlas Shrugged, but I've read The Fountainhead and Anthem. Anthem I read in my early teens. It had a rather profound influence on me then and I've never been able to forget the feeling that it left me with.

The Fountainhead I found interesting when I read it just a few years ago. But it didn't inspire me to read more of her work.

Your post is very interesting though and I think I will have to add AS to my reading list (which is rather long at the present time).

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#39 Godeskian

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 02:36 AM

John Galt, on Nov 29 2004, 07:34 AM, said:

Fashionably late? :)

There are in this world only two truly vital social skills. Knowing when to enter a room, and knowing when to leave it. Everything else you can fake.

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Well, that's a first step.

BTW, I'm not saying never, ever give to charities, help old ladies across streets, etc.  Do it if you want to do it.  Just remember any act that's not in your best interests just might have a hidden angle to it...so think carefully.

I do try to.

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That's because Objectivism is rooted in reality, and that absolutely unnerves some people while others recognize it for what it is.

I'll second that.

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I was introduced to it as a child by a mentor.  I've lived by its principles for decades, and guess what?  I'm filthy stinking rich...rich enough that I can sit around playing on the internet and not feel pressed for time...and I'm happy. :D I can finance any five of those whiners in the other thread for the Ivy League school of their choice...and that's no bull.

My sincere congratulations in that regard. I don't consider material wealth to be the sole arbiter of success, but it certainly does afford you more scope for examining all the other fashions of being happy.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#40 FnlPrblm

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 05:08 AM

Well if Steven is fashionably late, I of course am right on my schedule of walking in when most people are walking out. :hehe:

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And if you’re thrown in jail for defending what is yours, do exactly what you are forced to do and nothing more. Do what is necessary for your survival and nothing more. If you comply, you’ve given in and now you’re a slave in mind and well as body.

This sounds something like H. D. Thoreau would say in Civil Disobedience. :)  Good truth.

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"I swear—by my life and my love of it—that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”

Couldn't a lot of this be a major extension of a maxim I use, The Golden Rule? ;)

As far as the morsel of food goes.  If both of you are just and moral, then you both will starve to death.  If one of you eats the morsel and the other dies, then the immoral one who survives will revert possibly to an inhumane state.  Maybe even cannibalism since now the need for morality is out of the way to make way for survival.

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Whatever robs me of my rights is immoral. To kill, restrict, or rob for any reason other than the protection of these rights is immoral. To deny another human being his or her rights is immoral.

Does this not cause a dilema though if one must kill in order to preserve/protect one's own rights?  Like the food bit, one must choose between living [being immoral by killing and protecting the rights that at the same time your ironically are losing] and dying [ceding these rights and again losing].   :unsure:

A problem I have with morality is that unlike logic, there is no constant value to it.  From one person to the next, the definition of one's morals waivers.  Logic however is near a mathmatical equation which points to a specific bottom line in each case.

However, logic does not allow for emotion either.  In most cases it is good and just.  I disallows hate and unwarranted violence.  It unfortunatly also doesn't allow for the good emotions like love (outside the allowance to procreate to survive).  Logic also does not always go hand-in-hand with common sense either (although most people don't have/use common sense now days anyway so maybe this isn't a factor anymore).  *shrugs*  

I believe most people can offer something to anyone.  It depends on if that other person is willing to accept what the giver has.  If the reciever does not wish the exchange, this doesn't necessarily mean that the giver is useless.  It simply means that someone else in the world has that need to be filled and thus is bargaining with the wrong person.  Another unfortunate thing in this realm is the unbalancement of the world.  Although there will statistically be some 1=1 trades being made, most people simply do not have what the other is looking for in addition to having the void filled by that same person.

  In closing, we are all human.  Whether we are moral or immoral, logical or illogical, everything is mortal.  The earth, sea, sky, sun and us humans all have an existance which can be brought to a close.  Since we all have a beginning and end, it is left up to us on how we believe to achieve our markings in this period to prove we did exist.  Fame, fortune, knowledge, power, love and cruelity are all pinnicale examples of this.  Morality and logic are two devices we use to measure these against our determination of success.  Will we all succeed and leave our mark?  Most will in some vagueness degree.  Yet, this is left up to the individual to decide and measure, not for others to decree upon them.
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