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This Is John Galt Speaking.

OT Member John Galt Philosophy

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#41 FnlPrblm

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 05:11 AM

P.S.  I came here tonight for a jug of milk and ended up leaving with a bag of groceries. ;)  Thanks.  :hehe:
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#42 Broph

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 07:38 AM

Remember, anything plus zero is still zero.

I haven't read all of your post - my fault, of course - but could you explain this concept? The last time I checked, anything plus zero should equal, well, anything (or whatever anything was before we decided to add zero to it).

Are you saying that adding zero to an accountant on a mountain (if he falls and nobody's around, does he make a sound?) equals zero? How do we explain this to the accountant's wife?

#43 Broph

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 07:43 AM

AndromedaAbyss, on Nov 29 2004, 07:15 AM, said:

Another question-where does the greater power (a.ka. the government) come into this? For example say I worked at a high-paying job when suddenly the government slashes my salary by fourty percent (or takes away benefits, or whatever) essentially this is stealing, but there is nothing that can be done about it, either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Sure there's something that can be done about it - you can do what they did in the book, "Atlas Shrugged".

#44 Spectacles

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 08:05 AM

Thank you for posting this, John Galt. I confess that I had tried to read Atlas Shrugged when I was a teenager and couldn't get into it. I really should read it, as I've heard critiques of it ranging from "it changed my life" to "it's overwritten silliness." But for now I thank you for the Cliff Notes. :) My first impression isn't that favorable, probably because I'm not fully awake and a lot of it sounds to me like Polonius, so I'm inclined to respond with "more matter and less art," but that would be unfair. I'll try to give it a read this evening with a more awake and less closed mind.
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#45 waterpanther

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 08:49 AM

Quote

That's because Objectivism is rooted in reality, .

And pigs fly.  "Objectivism" ignores biology, psychology and genetics, and that's just for starters.  It's one long whine in aid of narcissism.  AS is, however, a prime cure for insomnia.  

But X does suck, in Rand's case like a Hoover.  X=X, after all.

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#46 Nonny

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 09:25 AM

nutmeg, on Nov 28 2004, 07:34 PM, said:

Yes, it is a quote (without attribution) from a character named Jonn Galt in Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. What I remember most from reading that book years ago was that the other characters ran around asking "Who is John Galt" a lot. I also remember putting the book down and thinking "I don't care."



shrug,
nutmeg

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, this is not his first.  He's done an entire post unattributed.  I had the same response to Ayn Rand.  

Nonny, also shrugging
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#47 prolog

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 09:30 AM

Forum 3000 pretty much sums up my feelings of Rand, if any of you read that back in the day.

#48 Nonny

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 09:31 AM

John Galt, on Nov 28 2004, 06:10 PM, said:

Let me tell you something, and you can take this to the bank: I owe you nothing.  That includes you, Digital Man and you Nonny.  Until you can approach me on a value-for-value basis, I have nothing for you. If you approach me with an empty hand and wanting something, I won’t even acknowledge you exist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you're an American taxpayer, you owe me a pension.  I don't have to take it to the bank, because the VA deposits it directly every month, as it will tomorrow.  

The nothing that you have for me is anything worth listening to.  

Have a reeeeeeeaaaaaaaal nice day.  

Nonny

edited to add "American" and, of course, change the indefinite article

Edited by Nonny, 29 November 2004 - 09:55 AM.

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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#49 Nonny

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 09:33 AM

MuseZack, on Nov 28 2004, 07:42 PM, said:

Digital Man, you sly dog, you got him monologuing!   :lol:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe I had some small part in it.  ;)

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#50 Nonny

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 09:34 AM

waterpanther, on Nov 28 2004, 08:21 PM, said:

Oh, good grief.  I continue to be amazed by people who think Ayn Rand was a philosopher and not just a bad novelist.

Waterpanther

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Oh yeah!  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#51 prolog

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 09:42 AM

A bit off topic, but I found a mirror of Forum 3000 here.  Haven't had time to re-read many of the HOF topics, but there's some good Rand ones in there.

EDIT: this is pretty good, as is this.

Edited by prolog, 29 November 2004 - 11:10 AM.


#52 Nonny

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 09:54 AM

Nikcara, on Nov 28 2004, 08:54 PM, said:

waterpanther, on Nov 29 2004, 04:21 AM, said:

Oh, good grief.  I continue to be amazed by people who think Ayn Rand was a philosopher and not just a bad novelist.

Waterpanther

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok, that just made me laugh.

I've read Nietzsche, and really I kept getting the impression that he really needed a hug.  I've been meaning to read Ayn Rand for a few years now...and oddly enough kept finding better things to do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:hehe:  :hehe:  :hehe:  :hehe:  :hehe:

MuseZack, on Nov 28 2004, 09:14 PM, said:

Officer Barbrady: "Yes, at first I was happy to be learning how to read. It seemed exciting and magical, but then I read this: 'Atlas Shrugged' by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of s**t, I am never reading again."
--South Park, "The Chicken Lover"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:

Dang!  It's all good!  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#53 Kosh

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 10:19 AM

I've read "Fountainhead" and "Anthem". I enjoyed both, but really liked Anthem. I'll get to "Atlas Shrugged" when time permits. I'm not 100% into her ideas, but there are some good things there, and it's nice to have someone around who will discuss it in a resonable manner instead of writting it off and refering to eveyone who wan'ts to discuss it as fools, as Zack does.

Unfortunatly, I post from work, and can't spend a lot of time posting.
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#54 Nonny

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 10:28 AM

John Galt, on Nov 28 2004, 10:34 PM, said:

... guess what?  I'm filthy stinking rich...rich enough that I can sit around playing on the internet and not feel pressed for time...and I'm happy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Two things:

1. If you lose it all, will you happily accept your fate and not seek help?  

2. Now I'm hearing that awful theme song from that awful show, Filthy Rich!  Dang!  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#55 GoldenCoal

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 10:33 AM

John Galt, on Nov 28 2004, 11:32 PM, said:

Could you give another example for further address?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Ok, my thought is, what if you are starving because, from no fault of your own (or if it is from your own fault, if it changes anything), and if you do not get food on your own, you will die. You come upon a street vendor who has some loafs of bread, and is currently distracted and thus you have a chance to steal that bread, even though that is infringing on the vendors rights. Since you are stuck between your own right to life, and the vendor's right to life (since it becomes harder for him to live without that bread), can you ever be moral, or must you protect yourself first, or something else?

#56 nutmeg

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 11:11 AM

Quote

Yes, it is a quote (without attribution) from a character named Jonn Galt in Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. What I remember most from reading that book years ago was that the other characters ran around asking "Who is John Galt" a lot. I also remember putting the book down and thinking "I don't care."



Quote

Please prove this claim or withdraw it



Quote

No, it is not word for word. Paraphrase, yes. Yes, two  paragraphs written by her (Rand) more eloquently than I could have, yes....


To quote without giving attribution is to plagiarize.

Quote

Plagiarize: to appropriate and give out as one's own (the writings, inventions, or ideas of another. The Cassell Concise Dictionary, London, 1997


"What I remember most..... characters asking "Who is John Galt."
That is my memory. I cannot prove that this is indeed my memory other than by stating that it is.

"I also remember puttting the book down... thinking I don't care"  
Again, I cannot prove that this is indeed my memory of it. I did not shoot an 8 mm movie of me doing that (video cams hadn't been invented as yet).

nutmeg (not netmeg as you wrote)

edited to add. I just came back to do as Galt requested and posted above.
Addendum: Rand had some interesting ideas that I thought were way off base from my personal philosopy. Have fun discussing them. However, the nic John Galt did not think them up. If he has lived them and has made a success of himself (however he defines that),  then good for him. Happy discussing.

Edited by nutmeg, 29 November 2004 - 11:17 AM.


#57 Palisades

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 12:22 PM

JG, you say, "What upholds life is moral. The basis of morality is the existence of the human being. Nothing more." You then say, "Value-for-value is the only rational intercourse between minds. Anything else is immoral. Interact with those who have something to offer you, whether it be money, knowledge, love, protection, intellectual stimulation…whatever you desire and is valuable to you, or whatever you need to survive."

Okay, let's say you find a severely injured man collapsed on the street (perhaps from a mugging). Without medical care he will die. Logically, you have two choices:
1) Don't save his life
2) Save his life

Only saving his life obeys your moral imperative to uphold life. Therefore, your only moral choice requires giving him the medical care he needs to live, even if he can't afford it. So we have that this act of compassion and giving is the moral thing to do. However, this flatly contradicts your statement that any intercourse that is not value for value is immoral (unless you obtain equitable value from the satisfaction of upholding life).

Additionally, if upholding life is the prime imperative, then your moral system requires you to give money so that the starving people of the world can continue living.

Moving on to another of your points, the U.S. Postal Service, not to mention ExIsle, are non-profit ventures. Contrary to your unsubstantiated claims of guaranteed failure and red ink, both solidly address the problems for which they're intended (shipping letters and parcels in the case of the Postal Service and providing a place for discussion on the Internet in the case of ExIsle). I don't know about the Postal Service's finances, but ExIsle has a surplus of funds. Yet another non-profit corporation that has more than fulfilled its purpose and has its finances in excellent order is WARF, the agency created to protect the intellectual property generated by the University of Madison--Wisconsin. WARF has established a reputation of zealous and successful enforcement of patents and licenses. As a result, UW researchers and labs are able to use license fees as a major source of funding for future research.

On a more fundamental level, other than personal fiat, there's no reason that upholding life is a better basis for a moral system than, say, maximizing happiness. Is it better to have a short life filled with happiness and pleasures or a long life of mere existence?
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#58 Kimmer

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 12:57 PM

John Galt, on Nov 28 2004, 06:10 PM, said:

Never give when asked unless given something of value in return.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John Galt, on Nov 28 2004, 10:34 PM, said:

BTW, I'm not saying never, ever give to charities, help old ladies across streets, etc.  Do it if you want to do it.  Just remember any act that's not in your best interests just might have a hidden angle to it...so think carefully.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting, but to me, a very emotionally cold and empty philosophy by which to live ones life. Do you not ever do something just to be kind or nice? Do you only do things that bring you some kind of tangible return? What about helping someone just because they are another human being on this planet? I've always lived as much as possible by the Golden Rule and by the idea that "what goes around, comes around". I sleep well at night.

John Galt, on Nov 28 2004, 10:34 PM, said:

I was introduced to it as a child by a mentor.  I've lived by its principles for decades, and guess what?  I'm filthy stinking rich...rich enough that I can sit around playing on the internet and not feel pressed for time...and I'm happy. :D I can finance any five of those whiners in the other thread for the Ivy League school of their choice...and that's no bull.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Glad you're happy. I've never found money very comforting when I'm down, or feeling a bit lonely. It's nice to be able to buy "things", but "things" don't make up who I am, nor do they make me happy deep down inside.

In a search of the net, I found this:

Quote

http://www.whatisobj...ained/page6.htm

Thus the primacy of reason entails that egoism - a reasoned and enlightened search for self-interest - is the way to live objectively.
If this is truly what you believe, then it is a very cold and self-centered philosophy. I'm amazed you would come to a board to interact with others who you most likely consider beneath you. Or is this a way to amuse yourself?

I will say this is one of the more interesting threads to pop up around here in ages.

Pickles

#59 John Galt

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 02:28 PM

Wow.  I go away for a while, and there's all these responses...some great, and some typical.  I'll try to respond to each one in order so it may take some time.  Bear with me please.

Those of you who pmed me with your responses, your support and rational rebuttal, I appreciate them as well.
"Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction - which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good."            —Ayn Rand

#60 John Galt

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 02:31 PM

AndromedaAbyss, on Nov 29 2004, 01:02 AM, said:

Huh-that's funny, I can't actually think of much to say because some of it makes perfect sense. :eek4: A point though...

-Going back to the scenario with you/someone else trapped in a mine with only a morsel of food for a moment-moralistically, you're not going to take it. But the survivor in you will because it's the last possible option left to you. When it comes to survival, morals pretty much go out the window IMO. Even if it probably won't save your life, you will try anyway.

Just that one observation for now. I have to read this over again tomorrow. :)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I would like to think that I can hold on to my rationality until the end, but who knows what they will do when the brain starts rebelling due to extreme hunger.  That is a good point.  If I were completely convinced that there is no hope of survival for me, I would consider offing myself to avoid the slow death, but who knows?
"Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction - which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good."            —Ayn Rand



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