Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

U.S. Combat Fatality Rate Lowest Ever

Military Fatalities Low rate

  • Please log in to reply
232 replies to this topic

#21 Ogami

Ogami
  • Islander
  • 2,976 posts

Posted 10 December 2004 - 07:23 PM

Spectacles later wrote:

As I said up there, I will delete the remarks when Ogami deletes his subtitle.

Edited! I really had no idea anyone here thought of themselves as belonging to the "whacko left", I stand corrected.

-Ogami

#22 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 10 December 2004 - 07:28 PM

:D

Classic response.

OK...Ogami goes back on ignore. But I still request that his subtitle be deleted. It makes a false, inflammatory, and just-plain loony claim about the article, about the writer's motives, and about the views of anyone who isn't a card-carrying dittohead--which actually includes some reason-based Republicans. This is what he typically means by "The Left." Here, a newspaper reporter is accused of being a leftist with an agenda because she dared to print the facts regarding both the deaths and the injuries in Iraq. That's beyond absurd.

I'm not asking that he be "banished." I'm just requesting that he be required to follow the board's posting rules. If Ogami's allowed to make unfounded and pure-dee wild accusations against The Left in his subtitles (here, that they are dismayed that so few troops are dying in Iraq), then I'm assuming we are all free to make up whoppers about The Right.

So, in the interest of preserving a modicum of civil discourse on the board, I ask that his subtitle be deleted on the grounds that it is false and inflammatory.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#23 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 10 December 2004 - 07:32 PM

OK, a step in the right direction. Now can you support the claim that the "non-Ex Isle Left sees this as bad news"?

If not, I'd suggest you edit it further. I'm not offended as a member of the alleged aggrieved group. I'm offended at your implication that *anyone* is disappointed that the death rate in Iraq isn't higher. Where on earth do you find support for that notion in this article?

Edited by Spectacles, 10 December 2004 - 07:33 PM.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#24 Ogami

Ogami
  • Islander
  • 2,976 posts

Posted 10 December 2004 - 07:32 PM

Spectacles wrote:

If Ogami's allowed to make unfounded and pure-dee wild accusations against The Left in his subtitles (here, that they are dismayed that so few troops are dying in Iraq), then I'm assuming we are all free to make up whoppers about The Right.

You've got me there, I've never seen a single lie posted about the Right. Boy, here I thought I alone had a monopoly on posting a partisan opinion, but that era is done. The times, they are a changin.

-Ogami

#25 Ogami

Ogami
  • Islander
  • 2,976 posts

Posted 10 December 2004 - 07:33 PM

Spectacles wrote:

If not, I'd suggest you edit it further.

The mind of the censor, everyone!

-Ogami

#26 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 10 December 2004 - 07:36 PM

Quote

You've got me there, I've never seen a single lie posted about the Right. Boy, here I thought I alone had a monopoly on posting a partisan opinion, but that era is done. The times, they are a changin.

So admit your subtitle was a lie? A bit of partisan propaganda? Something you have sense enough to know is false?

The times, they *are* a changin.

:cool:
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#27 Ogami

Ogami
  • Islander
  • 2,976 posts

Posted 10 December 2004 - 07:38 PM

Spectacles again:

I'm offended at your implication that *anyone* is disappointed that the death rate in Iraq isn't higher. Where on earth do you find support for that notion in this article?

The partisan media's motives are very questionable, and should be questioned, to use a turn of phrase usually said of the Bush administration. They see an Iraq defeat as a Bush defeat, not an American defeat. Therefore, such a news slant is desirable. (Or did you miss the past year of negative Iraq coverage intended to boost John Kerry?) But don't take my word for it. Gallup item courtesy of the Media Research Center.

Quote

Asked to rate the "honesty and ethical standards" of those in 21 professions, "TV reporters" and "newspaper reporters" came in 15th and 16th place in a new Gallup poll conducted last month and released on Tuesday. For TV reporters, only 23 percent rated them "very high" or "high" for "honesty and ethical standards." Newspaper reporters scored even worse, at 21 percent, though both journalistic categories were ahead on "business executives" at 20 percent. In what may provide an insight into how the public processes the media's bad news obsession with Iraq, "military officers" came in fourth place at 72 percent, way ahead of journalists. "Car salesmen" ranked last and "nurses" came out on top.

     Romenesko ( www.poynter.org ) on Tuesday highlighted Gallup's release.

     The question in Gallup's survey: "Please tell me how you would rate the honesty and ethical standards of people in these different fields -- very high, high, average, low, or very low?"

     The percent who answered "very high" or "high," for each job category:

1. Nurses: 79
2. Grade school teachers: 73
3. Druggists, pharmacists: 72
4. Military officers: 72
5. Medical doctors: 67
6. Policemen: 60
7. Clergy: 56
8. Judges: 53
9. Day care providers: 49
10. Bankers: 36
11. Auto mechanics: 26
12. Local officeholders: 26
13. Nursing home operators: 24
14. State officeholders: 24
15. TV Reporters: 23
16. Newspaper reporters: 21
17. Business executives: 20
18. Congressmen: 20
19. Lawyers: 18
20. Advertising practitioners: 10
21. Car salesmen: 9
http://www.mediarese...b20041208.asp#5

#28 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 10 December 2004 - 07:38 PM

Quote

The mind of the censor, everyone!

:D

Hardly. Just someone insisting that a false subheading be removed. And it's still false unless you can provide support for it.

Now...where's that little ignore feature.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#29 waterpanther

waterpanther
  • Islander
  • 1,944 posts

Posted 10 December 2004 - 08:05 PM

I have to say that I don't see how the acknowledgement that soldiers are surviving with worse and more disabling injuries is a criticism of anyone.  It's a fact, and it's one that's going to have to be dealt with through major rehab programs that will in turn require major funding.  Somebody in Washington damned well better be listening up, and good on Connolly for identifying the problem.  

The same thing is occurring with neonates.  Babies with developmental problems that once would have killed them within hours or days now survive on extensive life support.  Some of them will never be able to survive without such support.  Funny, though, no one seems inclined to blame acknowledgment of that problem on media spin to embarass Bush.  But then, give it time.

waterpanther
Posted Image

#30 GoldenCoal

GoldenCoal

    Not Fool's Gold

  • Islander
  • 1,096 posts

Posted 10 December 2004 - 08:11 PM

Ogami, on Dec 10 2004, 06:38 PM, said:

The partisan media's motives are very questionable... But don't take my word for it. Gallup item courtesy of the Media Research Center.
<snip>
14. State officeholders: 24
15. TV Reporters: 23
16. Newspaper reporters: 21

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Well, if that's proof that the media's motives, that's all proof that state officeholder's motives are just less questionable than TV reporters... and since Republicans have a majority just about everywhere... that would mean that  Republicans have very questionable motives.

But seriously, equating perceptions (as this poll measures) with reality is fallacious.

Edited by GoldenCoal, 10 December 2004 - 08:12 PM.


#31 tennyson

tennyson
  • Islander
  • 6,173 posts

Posted 10 December 2004 - 08:13 PM

I may be ignorant of the technical issues after the latest board software change but isn't it not possible for anyone but moderators and others with that level of system access to edit thread titles after they have been posted? If so then Ogami couldn't do anything about it even if he wanted to, since he doesn't have that kind of access. If I'm wrong and that is possible then I really don't have anything constructive to add.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#32 Ogami

Ogami
  • Islander
  • 2,976 posts

Posted 10 December 2004 - 08:22 PM

GoldenCoal wrote:

Well, if that's proof that the media's motives, that's all proof that state officeholder's motives are just less questionable than TV reporters... and since Republicans have a majority just about everywhere... that would mean that Republicans have very questionable motives.

It's fair to say that state legislators are regarded on the same par as car salesmen and print reporters. Unless the Local/State section of my newspaper is the only one featuring stories on local political graft and corruption.

But seriously, equating perceptions (as this poll measures) with reality is fallacious.

It's a specious question to demand proof that the partisan news media is pining for America's defeat in Iraq. I can give a thousand examples, GoldenCoal. Here's another:

http://www.cnn.com/2...arrier.landing/

Bush was thanking the carrier crew for being on the mission for 10 months straight, that's a very long deployment. He then made a general speech about rebuilding Iraq, indicating very clearly that the mission was not over for everyone. What did most news reports from this innocuous become? Well I think you already know the answer to that.

The Partisan press should be called into question, and if some don't like it, too bad.

-Ogami

#33 Godeskian

Godeskian

    You'll be seein' rainbooms

  • Islander
  • 26,839 posts

Posted 10 December 2004 - 08:24 PM

Ogami, on Dec 11 2004, 01:20 AM, said:

How dare you disagree with Steven Q!


:eek2:  :)  :D  :lol:

That's going in the sig.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#34 waterpanther

waterpanther
  • Islander
  • 1,944 posts

Posted 11 December 2004 - 12:17 AM

Funny--the title given for a similar story on BushWatch is "90% Survive Wounds In Iraq."  Somebody should tell them that, as a site devoted to holding Bush accountable for his crimes--pardon me, mindlessly bashing the noble, innocent, pure and no doubt immaculately conceived George Bush--they passed up a prime opportunity to pillory him.  Somehow they just couldn't decode the obvious subtext that's so clear to anyone with the properly right-wing views.  Tch.


waterpanther

Edited by waterpanther, 11 December 2004 - 12:23 AM.

Posted Image

#35 Chipper

Chipper

    Give it up

  • Islander
  • 5,202 posts

Posted 11 December 2004 - 01:12 AM

tennyson -- I think the new software gave members the ability to edit also.
"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?"

- Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy

#36 CJ AEGIS

CJ AEGIS

    Warship Guru!

  • Islander
  • 6,847 posts

Posted 11 December 2004 - 06:52 AM

Quote

Zack: Oh, and go here for the slideshow from the NEJM slideshow on what's now a survivable wound. If you feel like it, you can even tell some of the people in the photos to stop their whining about unarmored vehicles.

Are you implying this has to be the case that if you are against up armoring HMMWVs because that armor won’t do anything against IEDs and RPGs you have to be a cruel heartless creature?  :glare:  Rather than someone who would rather see those funds spent on buying Strykers that will actually save lives rather than just be a token gesture.

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 11 December 2004 - 06:55 AM.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#37 schoolpsycho

schoolpsycho
  • Islander
  • 893 posts

Posted 11 December 2004 - 10:44 AM

Hi, all.

Yes, I'm back. Won't be for long. But, I feel I must. If just this once.

I wrote it and posted it at another place. Due to the nature of this thread, I felt the need to re-post them here. Faces.



Faces.

***************************************

It was Thanksgiving eve. I was just sitting here, and I did my usual daily Iraq update surfing on CNN's website. But, instead of just numbers, I looked at their faces.

Small ones, of course; only so much you can put on a news site. But I noticed.

All types. Black, White, Yellow, Red, Brown. Female, Male, very young, older. Most faces seen, some not.

We get caught up in numbers, what's "acceptable", "understandable", in wars. After all, we had Korea, Vietnam, both World Wars. The numbers aren't huge, compared to them. We get caught up in the numbers games, dead, wounded, money.

But, tonight, as I was doing so, I thought to myself, I had to see the faces. They were there. Not just a name, a face. A real person.

Some were smiling, some stoic. Many were like my brothers in their military photos, so different, yet the same. I can tell you that if you saw my brothers' photos, you wouldn't know they were brothers unless I told you. Some were civie, some were millie, some were there in Iraq, I imagine, when their photos were taken. Giving as much hope as they could to their friends and family.

But, I saw them, if only briefly; I couldn't bear to look for too long, because it hit me then.

No matter how many, one was too many.

When it's not yours, it's no one, but when it is, it's everyone.

We've lost them. Not just soldiers.

We lost musicians, teachers, technicians, chefs, doctors, nurses, pilots, etc.

People who were living their lives, living their dreams, or just starting to.

And now, they're gone.

All faces. Faces who were loved. And will be missed.

I'll look at the numbers still. And count the cost in money.

But, numbers aren't important right now.

What is, is many more faces will be added.

One face more is still too many.

I saw my brothers' faces, and was glad I'd be able to see them again.

I'll see more faces. Soon.

Because, War has a face.

Ours.

***************************************

Now, then.

I can forgive a lot of things. From lipsynching, to steroid jocks. You name it. Cuz, I ain't no angel, and don't wanna be no saint.

But, one thing I never do is mock death. Not in jest, not in vengeance, and especially not to take cheap shots at people I don't agree with.

Over 1200 of our soldiers are dead. DEAD. That's the population of my high school when I left. Times 2 and a half. So, you'll all forgive me if I find the fact that "only" 1200 of our men and women are gone, and over 10,000 wounded, and many more scarred for life not good news.

And with that, I leave.

sp
Love is hard...and all there is.

#38 Nonny

Nonny

    Scourge of Pretentious Bad Latin

  • Islander
  • 31,142 posts

Posted 11 December 2004 - 11:51 AM

{{{{{{{{{{{sp}}}}}}}}}}}

trikay, on Dec 10 2004, 06:27 AM, said:

AS to whether it is better that more are surviving even with the possibililty or certainty of being diabled for life...that is up to each individual soldier and their families as to whether this is bad or good.  Each person reacts differently to their situations and attitude is very important.  You can just give up and feel sorry for yourself or you can be like Christopher Reeve and try to make a difference still.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Reeve did much good with research he funded and the strong, indomitable will he brought to his own recovery, but he had something few injured people and, I suspect, no injured serviceman or servicewoman has: millions to spend upon health care.  These injured veterans, many of them with wounds so heinous they would not have survived earlier armed conflicts, have the VAMC.  Fortunately, they also have the DAV, the VVA, AmVets and other organizations to fight for them, because they will need our help.  

I hope the families of each individual newly disabled veteran are better than the families that abandoned earlier generations of disabled veterans, but I'm already hearing about the broken marriages, and it won't be long before the families still willing to visit the inpatients start to buttonhole the shrinks and demand heavier meds so they don't have to witness the "outbursts" and other unpleasant behaviors.  And don't get me started on all the older veterans dying alone in VA nursing homes.  I'm talking about veterans in their 40s and 50s.  

GoldenCoal, on Dec 10 2004, 11:00 AM, said:

I think what the article is saying is that death is bad, but mutilation is also bad, though not as bad as death.
We as a society are going to have to deal with how someone who has lost three of their appendages is going to function in society, so as great has saving a large amount of lives is, there are some issues that we will have to deal with. So it's not a celebration.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Max Cleland lost three, and look how he's been treated.  One of my friends can't be fitted for a leg for some reason I won't press him into sharing, and he's not doing well with the depression because of it.  One of the few women I know who is service connected for PTSD for combat-related issues (triage nurse in Vietnam) spent years listening to veterans who'd lost more than one limb assure her that they're glad to be alive, but she still has nightmares about all the multiple procedures she assisted in to save lives.  

trikay, on Dec 10 2004, 12:44 PM, said:

^^^Exactly :)

That was my feeling too.  People are going to have to learn to deal with more disabled people and their everyday needs 

And I don't know about anyone else but what little I know about how the VA hospitals work and the quality or level of services provided currently,  this is going to be a major issue in years to come.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So long as too many Americans accept number spinning as assurance that disabled veterans are getting what they need at VAMCs, the cuts will continue and neither the quality of care nor the availability of care will improve.  I see the cuts, I experience the cuts, and I'm a priority one patient.  Newly disabled veterans are waiting far too long to see a primary care physician, and this results in even longer waits for consults to the specialty clinics.  

Nonny
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#39 Lord Ravensburg

Lord Ravensburg

    All your lightsabers are belong to me

  • Islander
  • 533 posts

Posted 11 December 2004 - 05:39 PM

Hmph.  That's what I get for not having an account with the Post.

#40 Ogami

Ogami
  • Islander
  • 2,976 posts

Posted 11 December 2004 - 06:18 PM

A roaming poster wrote:

Over 1200 of our soldiers are dead. DEAD. That's the population of my high school when I left. Times 2 and a half. So, you'll all forgive me if I find the fact that "only" 1200 of our men and women are gone, and over 10,000 wounded, and many more scarred for life not good news.

It's horrible that any of our soldiers are dead. It's also horrible that we have 10,000 wounded. No one disputes this. But should Saddam Hussein have been left in power? He's already killed far more people than we've lost getting rid of him (and his would-be successors). We had millions of casualties in World War II, should we say those weren't worth it? Should we have not fought? Should we never fight when ignoring a problem is an option?

Back in 1963, Ronald Reagan said that there was only one sure way to guarantee peace. He said he could express it in one word: "Surrender".

Saddam Hussein banked on the moral weakness of the West. He believed we would never go to war to remove him, because everyone knew that creating an Islamic Democracy was unheard of. Iraq, surrounded by fearful dictators and mullahs, was not a country to liberate and turn into Switzerland overnight. The critics jeered, Saddam believed them, and both are being proven wrong.

Freedom is not free, and freedom in the Middle East is a cause worth fighting for. Some may say Arabs don't deserve democracy or freedom. That's why I am grateful that my president is not one of those naysayers. We are not wasting our time in Iraq, and I for one am glad that Saddam Hussein and his sons are not today filling more hundreds of thousands into mass graves.

-Ogami



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Military, Fatalities, Low rate

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users