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#21 waterpanther

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Posted 26 December 2004 - 04:24 PM

Thanks, DM!  Glad your computer was spared!

Nickara--The facts are out there, and they're not particularly difficult to find.  Because of my location and my work, I see some of the effects first hand.  South Texas is a kind of canary in the coalmine as far as global warming is concerned.

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#22 Ogami

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Posted 26 December 2004 - 04:56 PM

Steven Q wrote:

This actually happens a lot of the time, where earlier flawed research is pointed to as 'proof' that segments of science are wrong, but later corrective research is ignored.

Like how 'early' research showed salt and caffeine were going to kill us, and then later research determined that was a lot of bunk.

If we're going to shut off our industry, close down the highways, close the factories, stop making goods, and live in caves and use bark for toilet paper, then the environmentalists better have their facts together. Instead we get moronic crap like "If Bush doesn't ban SUVs, we're all gonna die!!!!!!!".

Please.

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#23 Godeskian

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Posted 26 December 2004 - 05:14 PM

Ogami, on Dec 26 2004, 10:56 PM, said:

Like how 'early' research showed salt and caffeine were going to kill us, and then later research determined that was a lot of bunk.

Yes actually. That's exactly how science is supposed to work. You observe something, you formulate a theory, and test it. Sometimes you find out you got it right in one, more often though, you find flaws in your theory. So you correct them and test the new theory, and you keep doing this untill your theory can withstand enough testign to become accepted.

Quote

If we're going to shut off our industry, close down the highways, close the factories, stop making goods, and live in caves and use bark for toilet paper, then the environmentalists better have their facts together. Instead we get moronic crap like "If Bush doesn't ban SUVs, we're all gonna die!!!!!!!".

Where do you get this crap? and what possible relevance could it have to my post?

You ranting at some imagined strawman version of an enviromentalist that may describe someone you've seen or read about, but does not describe me. Is it that difficult for you to actually just debate my points, rather than inventing new ones to rant at?

However, i'll humor you. It's boxing day and i'm bored.

I have never suggested we shut off our industry.
I have never suggested we close down highways.
I have never suggested we close the factories.
I have never suggested we stop making goods.
I have never suggested we should live in caves.

My post had nothing to do with Bush, nothing to do with enviromentalists.

Are you clear on this now?

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#24 Ogami

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Posted 26 December 2004 - 05:47 PM

Steven Q wrote:

Yes actually. That's exactly how science is supposed to work. You observe something, you formulate a theory, and test it. Sometimes you find out you got it right in one, more often though, you find flaws in your theory. So you correct them and test the new theory, and you keep doing this untill your theory can withstand enough testign to become accepted.

Thank you, Steven, thank you for coming to the clear conclusion: Until we know more about climate change and man's ability to affect it, we shouldn't start shutting down U.S. industry and cripple our economy. This is what the Kyoto Protocols are intended to do, it's why Bush faced demonstrations of hundreds of thousands of Europeans in 2001 when he visited. The environmentalists do not rely on facts, they rely on fear to scare people. And the fact that the U.S. economy would be shut down wouldn't make too many countries around the world weep.

Until the real actual climate scientists have a better understanding of how much man can affect the world's climate, the hysterical demands of the Environmental Movement should be relegated to the science fiction movies where they belong.

-Ogami

#25 Godeskian

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Posted 26 December 2004 - 05:49 PM

Ogami, on Dec 26 2004, 11:47 PM, said:

Thank you, Steven, thank you for coming to the clear conclusion: Until we know more about climate change and man's ability to affect it, we shouldn't start shutting down U.S. industry and cripple our economy.

To the best of my knowledge, i've never said 'we' should.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#26 Delvo

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Posted 26 December 2004 - 06:03 PM

Steven_Q, on Dec 26 2004, 05:14 PM, said:

I have never suggested we shut off our industry.
I have never suggested we close down highways.
I have never suggested we close the factories.
I have never suggested we stop making goods.
I have never suggested we should live in caves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And as any environmentalist who's been out in the woods much knows, the best toilet paper isn't bark; it's leaves... especially sassafras; they're broad enough, durable yet flexible, and smooth on one side but veiny on the other, and they leave you with a fresh minty smell.

#27 waterpanther

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Posted 26 December 2004 - 07:23 PM

Quote

To the best of my knowledge, i've never said 'we' should.

Nor, to the best of my knowledge, has any environmentalist.

This is another straw man, and it's the sort of emotional, knee-jerk parroting of the Reichwing's talking points that makes it impossible to have a rational or honest discussion with those who embrace this kind of "argument."

waterpanther

Edited by waterpanther, 26 December 2004 - 07:23 PM.

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#28 waterpanther

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Posted 26 December 2004 - 07:27 PM

Quote

And as any environmentalist who's been out in the woods much knows, the best toilet paper isn't bark; it's leaves... especially sassafras;

For my part of the woods, allow me to recommend cottonwood.  It's one of the few wild things in South Texas that, as a friend of mine puts it, is not designed to hurt you.

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#29 Godeskian

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Posted 27 December 2004 - 03:41 AM

waterpanther, on Dec 27 2004, 01:23 AM, said:

Quote

To the best of my knowledge, i've never said 'we' should.

Nor, to the best of my knowledge, has any environmentalist.

Actually my point was in reference that i'm not an american so Ogami's 'We' about thing Americans should or shouldn't do doesn't really apply to me.

Defy Gravity!


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#30 Spectacles

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Posted 27 December 2004 - 08:26 AM

Ah. One of Rush Limbaugh's favorite strawmen: the socialist environmentalist.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#31 Bad Wolf

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Posted 27 December 2004 - 01:04 PM

K, I'm no scientist or anything (didn't do so well at it in school either) but...

Doesn't it make sense that if there is a global warming phenomena that it would affect the icecaps at the north and south ends of the earth, which would loosen them, which would cause cold currents to gravitate inward, which would help cause things like unseasonably cold winters in places like South Texas?
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#32 Delvo

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Posted 27 December 2004 - 01:19 PM

That's actually not far off from a description that appeared in Scientific American in, I think, November, as an explanation for global warming's potential to cause an "ice-aging" of North American and Europe. The catch for this year's Christmas storm is just the fact that no such shift in ocean current has actually been seen yet and no such glacial runoff into artic waters has been seen yet... plus the fact that one storm doesn't indicate a trend of Texas getting colder overall than it was before; it just means that in one particular week an unusually cold, unusually moist cold front dipped farther south that week than they normally do.

#33 Ogami

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Posted 27 December 2004 - 07:09 PM

Steven Q wrote:

To the best of my knowledge, i've never said 'we' should.

Steven, I apologize if my directness confused you. I am not dealing with hypotheticals, I am dealing with absolute facts.

The Kyoto Protocol Accords are real. A good number of countries have signed them. The United States has not. There is every indication that if every major industrial power implemented Kyoto fully, it would create another worldwide Depression. That is a matter of dispute, but it is still the official position of the Bush Administration, and therefore the United States.

This is the perspective I am coming from, I apologize for assuming everyone else was informed on the topic.

The reason I made such an assumption is fairly obvious, I thought everyone would remember the millions of protesters that greeted Bush on his first European visit as President in 2001. Here's a link if it helps you refresh your memory on the topic. I'll try not to be so presumptive in the future, and hope we'll have less dismissiveness of other points of view.

http://archives.cnn....ence/index.html

-Ogami

#34 Godeskian

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Posted 28 December 2004 - 03:43 AM

Uhm, I read your link Ogami, and I actually recall reading and hearing about the G8 summit riots when they happened, however i had never associated those riots solely with the Bush goverments decision to not comply with the Kyoto protocols.

What the dutch, belgian and british news were reporting at the time, was that the riots were not primarily focussed on Bush at all

http://news.bbc.co.u...ope/1435610.stm

Quote

Some of the main groups protesting in Genoa are:
Genoa Social Forum
Main organiser of Genoa protests and alternative forum
ATTAC!
International pressure group for a more equal distribution of wealth
Drop the Debt
London-based successor to Jubilee 2000, the international movement to cancel debts of the world's poorest countries

Ya Basta!
Italian radical anti-globalisation group, declared war on the G8
Globalise Resistance
British-based socialist organisation, opposed to "the global growth of corporate power"
Indymedia
Independent media organisation, writing and webcasting events from large demonstrations, by-passing what it sees as the corporate media
Tute Bianchi (White Overalls)
Italian-based direct action group, using home-made equipment as defence against what it sees as police violence

From my perspective, and many europeans I imagine, the notion that the entire riots at the G8 summit you linked to were solely because of Bush is trivialising a lot of people who were there for other reasons.

Quote

I am not dealing with hypotheticals, I am dealing with absolute facts

Okay, and what if it genuinly turns out that the way America does business is doing immense damage to the planet. Would you support the protocols then?

Quote

There is every indication that if every major industrial power implemented Kyoto fully, it would create another worldwide Depression. That is a matter of dispute, but it is still the official position of the Bush Administration, and therefore the United States.

Okay, so why hasn't the US proposed an alternative way of reachign towards the same goal while retaining the ability to use industry effectivly.

I think part of the problem for a lot of people is that the US goverment doesn't even seem willing to acknowledge that there may be a problem.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#35 Ogami

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Posted 28 December 2004 - 06:40 PM

Steven, feel free to search CNN harder than I did. Early in his presidency, Bush conducted a tour of every European country we wanted to do business with. The Anarchist/Communist/Environmentalist/Social left organized mass protests in every city he visited, it was nightly newscast news for a solid week.

While the hate-crazed peaceful protesters had a lot of things to protest about America, their main source of ire was Bush's insistence he would not sign the Kyoto Protocols. He said it would hurt America's industry. That was honesty, and boy did they not like honesty. Kyoto was the driving force for the anti-Bush rallies, by all accounts.

Does honesty pay? You may also recall President Clinton signing his agreement to the Kyoto Accords. Clinton did this because he knew the U.S. Senate would never ratify it. Sure enough, the Senate voted 98-0 against Kyoto. That's 98-0, Republicans and Democrats. Smooth as he was, Clinton knew he'd personally benefit for his "enlightened" environmentalism, all the while knowing it would never be enacted in law. Clinton got a better reception any time he stopped by Europe as a result.

I'll take Bush's honesty over Clinton's slickness any day. Especially given whom the radical environmentalist movement views as their friends, and enemies.

-Ogami

#36 waterpanther

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Posted 28 December 2004 - 06:53 PM

Bush's honesty?

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Put that one in the same file with Britney Spears' chastity!

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#37 Laconiq

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Posted 28 December 2004 - 07:12 PM

As posted by Ogami:

Quote

Laconiq(!), please prepare yourself better when lecturing me whether I have a command of the facts. Otherwise you'll find the experience akin to a LeCar colliding with a gas-guzzling Hummer.
Well yes, I certainly wouldn't want that...   :rolleyes:  
So, tell me..what are the news/media sources you find so very reliable in reporting the correct facts?
Could you possibly list them for me, so I can be better prepared?
Because that whole Hummer scenario just has me trembling so...     ;)

#38 Nonny

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Posted 29 December 2004 - 10:12 AM

waterpanther, on Dec 28 2004, 03:53 PM, said:

Bush's honesty?

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Put that one in the same file with Britney Spears' chastity!

waterpanther

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Good one!  

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#39 Godeskian

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Posted 29 December 2004 - 10:23 AM

Ogami, on Dec 29 2004, 12:40 AM, said:

Steven, feel free to search CNN harder than I did.

You're the one that posted a link Ogami. I would have assumed you would have taken the time to make sure the link was accurate.

What you describe may all be accurate, but it has nothing to do with the G8 summit meeting in Genoa.

Defy Gravity!


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#40 Mr.Calgary

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Posted 29 December 2004 - 12:53 PM

waterpanther, on Dec 28 2004, 04:53 PM, said:

Bush's honesty?

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Put that one in the same file with Britney Spears' chastity!

waterpanther

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sure everyone will laugh as hard when we include Clinton's integrity, to family and country.  Yes? hmmm. :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
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