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#1 Orpheus

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 04:36 PM

I don't even want to read the discussion on this one, but I thought you might like to know:
http://www.telegraph...30/ixworld.html

#2 Lover of Purple

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 04:39 PM

Good Grief!

#3 Anastashia

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 04:58 PM

I find that terrifying.
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#4 Godeskian

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 05:01 PM

UHm, i'd like to note that this has less to do with the sex industry than it does with german unemployment law.

This particular rule, that people have to take any available job after a year, applies to ANY job. no matter how embarrasing, or unwelcome.

having said that, I don't consider there to be anything immoral about prostitution in and of itself, as long as it is a voluntary and informed choice.

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#5 FlatlandDan

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 05:12 PM

Wow.  I think this law is one of those ones that seems like a good idea at the time, but in combination with another one it's just horrible.

At some point I really have to look around and find out the exact details of life in a legal brothal.
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#6 Godeskian

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 05:16 PM

Check out the Dutch ones rather than the German ones. They actually thought about how to add prostitution to the legal code without running into snags like this one every third day.

Plus you know, free health benefits for most of the big places in Amsterdam

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#7 Shalamar

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 05:23 PM

I think they went into something with out having thought it out completely.

And while prostitution ( to me ) is not imoral, it damn well is voluntary and to be forced on any one regardless of the laws is just flat out WRONG.

Sex must never be forced, it must be consensual or it is nothing but rape.

I think there is going to be the proverbial 'hell to pay' over this.
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#8 offworlder

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 06:17 PM

:eek4:
if I were her I'd do what is done in North america ...

I would hook up with a civil rights solicitor (that's Attorney, not pimp!) ... and sue the city, the district, the province or state, and the federal gov, and add in as co-respondents the names of the officials involved... for 20M euros.
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"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#9 Nonny

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 06:44 PM

FTS

Now that I've gotten that off my chest, let me say that I don't give a flying fig for the morality or immorality of prostitution, but I would kill, literally kill anyone who tried to force me into it.  I had too many friends amongst the officers' wives who were brothel rescues to ...  losing my train of thought here.  This really disturbs me.  There is so much difference between getting hit on while serving drinks and being forced to give it up for whoever pays ...  I don't like the idea that prostitutes go to jail but the johns and pimps go free here, but it seems that this law is placing a lot of power in the hands of any man or woman who wants to pimp for a living, the power of force, and I am sick and disgusted.  

If you had any idea how many young girls are sold to brothels in Asia...  One of the benefits of the Vietnam war for Asian prostitutes was having a GI make your Cinderella dream come through and buy you from the brothel owner and marry you.  Who are the biggest consumers of Thai sex tours these days?  German businessmen.  Somewhere in there are the whys and wherefores, but all I can see are the icks and ughs.  

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#10 Nonny

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 06:59 PM

Now that I've calmed down, a lot, let me say that I think that German women should take a lesson from American men.  Back in the 70s when we were saying, hey, we both work, you should share the housework, men were deliberately screwing up to get out of it.  If the unwilling prostitutes were really really bad....  No, probably won't work.  Even bad sex is sex, to the kind of man who would pay for sex, I'm thinking.  :suspect:

Nonny

edited to remove a generalization about men, since not all men are scumbags who would cheer at a law that would force women into prostitution.  Really.  No, I mean it.  Heck, it's hard sounding sincere instead of sarcastic, but I really mean it.

Edited by Nonny, 01 February 2005 - 10:10 AM.

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#11 Orpheus

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 08:57 PM

Huh, Nonny?

Bad sex is Bad Sex, methinks, having more years of experience as a man than any sane person would willingly admit. Though even many males buy into that sad sexist stereotype enough to let it slide or even spout it themselves, and though the conquest motif does run so strong in some men  that it *overrules* the notion/value of sex qua sex [Yeah, I was 14 once. What of it?], I've heard too many men complain of bad sex, in a personal or professional capacity, to accept the shoddy generalization.

We're not mauling animals. If we were, rape would be a very different social phenomenon. IMHO, rape is as immoral as any assault (but often more psychologically damaging, due to indoctrination) while prostitution is notnecessarily immoral (morality being a value judgement) but is fraught with complications because social indoctrination often renders it a "last resort" option -- but neither rape nor prostitution is comparable to the complex wonder of "sex". They are both, IMHO, misguided parodies

Bad sex is sex? HUH? Sorry, my mind is still reeling. Do you women really believe that we wouldn't be horrified to copulate with a gal we find undesirable--for whatever reason? Do we really seem so wretched that our sex lives are limited only by feeble opportunity? All the famous EI love life jokes aside, how many of us (adults) couldn't have sex any day, if we truly felt that way? Yet we often don't -- so as weird as it might seem, men do say "no" more often than not.

No sweat. I'm not offended. It'd be incredibly hypocritical of me to be upset, given some of the brown-and-squishy I pull out from under the tail of my monkey suit. I just thought I'd set the record straight: it's a common hallf-joking stereotype that men will go for any tail that wags, but it just ain't so.

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#12 D.Rabbit

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 01:50 AM

On the subject of this thread.
I am horrified that a woman can be forced into the sex trade against her will.

This action should be classed as an affront to human rights. It's not the same as the lowly jobs one might take if they where in need of employment.
It goes against an individual's morals.

The Johns do get a rough time in Ontario. If they are spotted as Johns, they can have their pictures and their names posted on the hydro poles in the areas they frequent. As for the pimps, they are also prosecuted, I heard of case to this fact from a court reporter.

Orpheus your going to make me eat my word.

Those words being, "I never met a man I couldn't have."

It's true of my distant past, not so much today.
I rarely meet men I would consider. The last time I was at the local grocery store I was ducking quite a few.

I know your the exception to this rule, so folks don't go judging males by Orphy's standards. He's a rare duck.


Orpheus, on Jan 31 2005, 08:57 PM, said:

Do you women really believe that we wouldn't be horrified to copulate with a gal we find undesirable--for whatever reason?
Do the words "Put a bag on her head." sound familiar?

Turn out the lights and pull up an vision of whom ever.

Are you living in a world of fantasy? Do you have any male friends at all, or have you never run with the wolf pack mentality?

Quote

Do we really seem so wretched that our sex lives are limited only by feeble opportunity?

I do appreciate your speech, unfortunately there are many who fall under the label of sexual opportunist, that is why young girls are always taught to be very wary.

Quote

-- so as weird as it might seem, men do say "no" more often than not.

Men with dead batteries do and they don't last long around me.

It is good to hear that you are of the few that are selective, that it's not just the fruit that you desire, but it needs to be ripe in more ways than one.

Quote

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<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Your worth at least 5 of my bucks.

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#13 Nonny

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 10:52 AM

Orpheus, I decided to edit the post, but I'm afraid that I'm going to sound sarcastic no matter how sincere I am.  Let me repeat that I don't care for the morality or immorality of prostitution, that what disgusts me is forcing a woman into prostitution.  This German law is a clear case of withholding the means to food and shelter to force a job-seeking woman (if men can also be forced into prostitution by this law, I'd like to know; wouldn't it be cool if the guy who wants 12 prostitutes has to hire 12 men? Okay, diversion over) to accept a job as a prostitute.  

At some times and in many places women who work outside the home have been considered prostitutes.  Women musicians, artists, actors, dressmakers and many, many others, some others simply because they had no man to provide for them.  They are called prostitutes to demean and demonize women working outside the home, or to force, bully and intimidate them to provide sexual services in a workplace where they are unprotected.  Some call that sexual harassment and laugh about it, as if it were insignificant.  

However, being called a prostitute and being treated like a prostitute are not the same, and this is how prostitution is different.  If someone else wants to expand, please do.  I'm not up to the task just now.  

So how is the forced prostitute protected from STSs?  If the protection fails, does she have to worry about becoming sterile, just in case she manages to drag herself out of the ditch she's been tossed into, gets her life back and wants to have a baby with a man who will graciously forget her past (she can hope he won't toss it in her face whenever they have a fight)?  And what happens when a forced prostitute becomes pregnant?  Is she forced to have an abortion?  Is she forced to have some john's child?  Is the child the property of the pimp?  

One of my friends told me about how she was lured into prostitution by a neighbor when she was five.  She ended up stealing her last john's car some years later and leading the police on a chase, back before that became newsworthy.  She's thankful that her higher power took over when she stole the car and stopped her from killing the guy.  I wonder how well prostitution would go over with the johns if they had to think about being killed instead of serviced.  Prostitutes have to live with the possibility of being killed by a john.  

All but one of the Asian wives I knew after my discharge and during the officer's wife portion of my military experience were rescued from brothels by their GI husbands.  The stories they told me about how they were forced into the life and the stories I've heard and read about since are heartbreaking.  Some were sold by their own families to finance a son's education.  Forced prostitution is something to stop, not spread.  

Prostitution is not like any other job on earth.  If it is not dropped from the acceptable jobs list for the purposes of this law, will the EU sanction Germany, or will the EU be forced to force prostitution upon the women of all EU nations?  

And where are the churches?!  Germany has at least three established churches.  I'd like to know how this is going over with the churches.  

Nonny
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

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All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#14 QueenTiye

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 10:59 AM

That's so depressing it hurts.  I can't believe that the jurists who wrote this law couldn't distinguish between the morality of working in a bar, versus the morality of being a prostitute.  

I'd like to know if these brothels will also force men into sex work?

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#15 Nonny

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 10:59 AM

Orpheus, on Jan 31 2005, 05:57 PM, said:

...but neither rape nor prostitution is comparable to the complex wonder of "sex".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree.  The poem I'm putting on my Clothesline Project tee-shirt, a poem I wrote many years ago, begins with the line, "Rape is not sex...."  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#16 Godeskian

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 11:15 AM

My reading, both of the article, adn what little relevant text I could find online suggests that any german (man or woman) who has been unemployed for over a year stands to lose benefits if they are offered a job and refuse.

So yes Nonny, a male offered a job as a prostitute, escort or gigolo would be in the same position.

Having said that, I agree, forced prostitution is a problem, but i'd also like to re-iterate that this law regarding benefits is a lot older than the legalisation of prostitution, and the interaction between them was probably not foreseen when they crafted the later law.

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#17 Nonny

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 11:55 AM

Steven_Q, on Feb 1 2005, 08:15 AM, said:

My reading, both of the article, adn what little relevant text I could find online suggests that any german (man or woman) who has been unemployed for over a year stands to lose benefits if they are offered a job and refuse.

So yes Nonny, a male offered a job as a prostitute, escort or gigolo would be in the same position.

Having said that, I agree, forced prostitution is a problem, but i'd also like to re-iterate that this law regarding benefits is a lot older than the legalisation of prostitution, and the interaction between them was probably not foreseen when they crafted the later law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But now that the interaction problem (wo! no pun intended! unusual for me!) has been seen, I'm hoping that they'll fix it, rather than stalwartly continue on in this tragic situation.  

From the article:

Quote

The government had considered making brothels an exception on moral grounds, but decided that it would be too difficult to distinguish them from bars. As a result, job centres must treat employers looking for a prostitute in the same way as those looking for a dental nurse.

When the waitress looked into suing the job centre, she found out that it had not broken the law. Job centres that refuse to penalise people who turn down a job by cutting their benefits face legal action from the potential employer.

"There is now nothing in the law to stop women from being sent into the sex industry," said Merchthild Garweg, a lawyer from Hamburg who specialises in such cases. "The new regulations say that working in the sex industry is not immoral any more, and so jobs cannot be turned down without a risk to benefits."

Miss Garweg said that women who had worked in call centres had been offered jobs on telephone sex lines. At one job centre in the city of Gotha, a 23-year-old woman was told that she had to attend an interview as a "nude model", and should report back on the meeting. Employers in the sex industry can also advertise in job centres, a move that came into force this month. A job centre that refuses to accept the advertisement can be sued.
BTW because of the gendered nouns in German, it is possible that job descriptions specify male or female.  It goes way beyond word pairs like 'waitress/waiter,' but into every noun in the language.  The German stategies for inclusive language are quite different from the English strategies.  When I wrote a report about military women for a German class about ten years ago, I nearly caused the professor's head to explode when I used 'die Soldatin' instead of 'der Soldat' even though the Oxford Duden listed it!  It was just not done--yet.  

There is a whole nother take on gender equality in Germany, so I'd like to see more information.  If anybody finds any more about this, please post!  

Nonny
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#18 Godeskian

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 12:00 PM

Well, let me ask you something Nonny.

If an extremely religious person, who considers abortion one of the worst sins imaginable, was forced to work at an abortion clinic under these rules, would you consider it a problem?

What about a racist who received a job offer from a chinese employer?

I find myself at odds regarding this law, because it's basic design is intended to stop peopple mooching of the goverment endlessly (such is the problem in England where we have our very fitst 4th generation dolists) that, in theory, I approve of.

But the moment you say, prostitution should be exempted, will other's have the right to ahve their personal bugbear 'exempted' as well?

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#19 Nonny

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 12:13 PM

Steven_Q, on Feb 1 2005, 09:00 AM, said:

I find myself at odds regarding this law, because it's basic design is intended to stop peopple mooching of the goverment endlessly (such is the problem in England where we have our very fitst 4th generation dolists) that, in theory, I approve of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Speaking as somebody who is considered a mooch because I draw a very comfortable pension from my government for my service-connected disability, let me just say that I'll get back to you.  

Yes, folks, somebody at another mb got so het up over a discussion we were having that she described my status as a disabled veteran in terms that could only be understood as mooching.  

Oh heck, I'll just come back later because I really had no intention of being online this late this morning.  

My pension is basically for being forced out of work I was doing very well in spite of my lack of male genitalia, and servicewomen are still thought of as whores, and my NCOIC was a disgusting old goat who made his sexual

Where I'm coming from here is that if a woman doesn't want to, she doesn't have to, okay?  And making her starve to make her compliant is force, okay?  

Gotta go.  

I hope no German woman has to do time for murder over this, because I know that this is something that would lead me to kill.  Not much would.  This would
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#20 QueenTiye

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 12:34 PM

Steven_Q, on Feb 1 2005, 12:00 PM, said:

Well, let me ask you something Nonny.

If an extremely religious person, who considers abortion one of the worst sins imaginable, was forced to work at an abortion clinic under these rules, would you consider it a problem?

Doing what?  Killing babies?  Yes.  I would consider it a problem.  Filing?  I think it is unfortunate, and I'd expect a person to get out of such a job at their earliest opportunity, but... in accordance with the law, I think it isn't their fault.  And, I can understand them choosing to lose benefits rather than participate, also.

That isn't the same thing as having to subject ones body to personal invasion.  One has a right to the sanctity of ones own body. PERIOD.

This isn't a hard one to figure out.

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