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If you don't take a job as a prostitute

Unemployment law Prostitution Culture Europe

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#21 Cheile

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 01:52 PM

Handmaiden07, on Feb 1 2005, 10:34 AM, said:

That isn't the same thing as having to subject ones body to personal invasion.  One has a right to the sanctity of ones own body. PERIOD.

This isn't a hard one to figure out.

HM07

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


^ what HM said!  

and also let's see men suffer all the crap women who have had to sell themselves over the millenia have gone through.  if Germany's gonna legalize whoring (cuz that's what prostitution is) then MEN who are jobless should have to join the women if they can't find anything else after a year as well.

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#22 Godeskian

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 02:03 PM

Nonny, on Feb 1 2005, 06:13 PM, said:

Speaking as somebody who is considered a mooch because I draw a very comfortable pension from my government for my service-connected disability, let me just say that I'll get back to you. 

Nonny,

Let me be absolutely, crystal clear. I do not, nor will I ever consider people on pensions, and certainly not former military personal moochers. Not now, not ever.

The people i'm talking about are the people who don't work because they can't be bothered to, then have babies, and demand bigger houses off my taxes to pay for them, and whose kids do the same thing.

We have people who are having from greatgrandparent, through great grand child, have never worked, in any way, shape or form, and have contributed NOTHING, but to squeeze out babies.

those, are moochers.

You, are not.

and HM, for what it's worth, I agree with you, however the German goverment has decided that it will not legislate morality, and while you can argue that stance back and forth, the bottom line of it is that legally, a filing clerk is no different from a prostitute.

It may not make it right, but it does make it legal.

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#23 Godeskian

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 02:05 PM

Cheile, on Feb 1 2005, 07:52 PM, said:

then MEN who are jobless should have to join the women if they can't find anything else after a year as well.

You are misinterpreting the law. Men have to take what they can get after a year as well. If they are offered a job as a prostitute, they have to tak it or risk their benefits. It's not a law which states 'if you can't find work you must become a prostitue' it's a law that says 'if you can't find work you have to accept ANY job offer that comes your way'

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#24 Consubstantial

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 02:14 PM

Just a couple of points.

First:  To pick up on the "take the job; but do it badly" angle.  If forced, I'd take that one step further.  Take the job and then refuse to do it.  If you must accept the job to keep your benefits, accept it.  But never do it.  If you refuse to do your job, you get fired; I assume.  If you are fired, your year of unemployment starts again; I assume.

Second:  While part of me agrees that folks shouldn't be forced to take jobs that violate their morals, another part of me knows that some people would take advantage and claim pretty much every job they are offered violates their morals.  The difference with sex is that forcing someone against their will is rape.  Rape is illegal.  I may not want to flip burgers or be a secretary for an abortion clinic; but forcing me to perform those acts is not a crime.  Forcing me to perform sexual acts is a crime.  Technically, I'd have to say that the German government is guilty of rape.
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#25 Godeskian

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 02:18 PM

Consubstantial, on Feb 1 2005, 08:14 PM, said:

First:

Couldn't say. There may a 'minimum time in job' stipulation. I can't claim i've ever laid eyes on the German legal code with regards to job benefits.

Quote

Second:  While part of me agrees that folks shouldn't be forced to take jobs that violate their morals, another part of me knows that some people would take advantage and claim pretty much every job they are offered violates their morals.

Which is probably why the law was created in the first place.

Quote

  Technically, I'd have to say that the German government is guilty of rape.

I'd agree with your assesment of the situation. Don't get me wrong, I think this is the kind of snafu that's bound to happen when someone writes a law without accurately keeping track of existing ones, and I have no doubt the German goverment will change it very, very shortly, and I don't agre that it's right, merely legal.

At the end of the day, the person doesn't HAVE to accept the job as a prostitue, but it will cost here some or all of her benefits. That isn't right mind you, but again, it is legal in Germany.

Edited by Steven_Q, 01 February 2005 - 02:19 PM.

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#26 Nonny

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 05:50 PM

Steven_Q, on Feb 1 2005, 11:05 AM, said:

Cheile, on Feb 1 2005, 07:52 PM, said:

then MEN who are jobless should have to join the women if they can't find anything else after a year as well.
You are misinterpreting the law. Men have to take what they can get after a year as well. If they are offered a job as a prostitute, they have to tak it or risk their benefits. It's not a law which states 'if you can't find work you must become a prostitue' it's a law that says 'if you can't find work you have to accept ANY job offer that comes your way'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where are you seeing the part about the men?  I reread this extremely upsetting article to scan for the part about men.  Where is it?  

From the article:

Quote

Miss Garweg believes that pressure on job centres to meet employment targets will soon result in them using their powers to cut the benefits of women who refuse jobs providing sexual services.
If you have some other source of information about this, please post it.  It says nothing about men losing benefits for refusing to become prostitutes.  

And let me repeat: I do not care one tiny thing about the morality or immorality of prostitution.  I care about the women who don't want to become prostitutes just to satisfy some stupid law.  I care about the women who don't want to be forced to become prostitutes under threat of financial ruin.  

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#27 QueenTiye

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 05:54 PM

Steven_Q we aren't talking morality.  I could go on and on about morality, but that's not what this is.  This is state sponsored rape.  To have something done sexually to ones body against ones will is rape, or at minimum molestation... but once actual sexual intercourse has occured - its rape.  Just because the mechanism of force isn't a gun or a knife doesn't make it less force.

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#28 Palisades

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 05:57 PM

Here's the money quote:

Quote

The government had considered making brothels an exception on moral grounds, but decided that it would be too difficult to distinguish them from bars. As a result, job centres must treat employers looking for a prostitute in the same way as those looking for a dental nurse.

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#29 Nonny

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 06:08 PM

Handmaiden07, on Feb 1 2005, 02:54 PM, said:

Steven_Q we aren't talking morality.  I could go on and on about morality, but that's not what this is.  This is state sponsored rape.  To have something done sexually to ones body against ones will is rape, or at minimum molestation... but once actual sexual intercourse has occured - its rape.  Just because the mechanism of force isn't a gun or a knife doesn't make it less force.

HM07

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree that this is state sponsored rape.  I agree about the mechanism of force.  

I'm trying to get to a calm, dispassionate place so I can continue this discussion, but I'm afraid that that's beyond me, so I'm going to get out before my blood pressure geysers a giant hole through the top of my head.  I am so angry about this, I am scaring myself.  

The complete, utter, total stupidity of this situation is beyond my comprehension.  

Breathing exercises aren't going to help me get my calm back today.  :(

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#30 Nonny

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 06:11 PM

Solar Wind, on Feb 1 2005, 02:57 PM, said:

Here's the money quote:

Quote

The government had considered making brothels an exception on moral grounds, but decided that it would be too difficult to distinguish them from bars. As a result, job centres must treat employers looking for a prostitute in the same way as those looking for a dental nurse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They can't tell the difference between saying no to drunks who are hitting on you and not being allowed to say no to ....  This is too much.  This is just too much.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

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All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#31 Palisades

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 06:30 PM

Steven_Q, on Feb 1 2005, 02:05 PM, said:

Cheile, on Feb 1 2005, 07:52 PM, said:

then MEN who are jobless should have to join the women if they can't find anything else after a year as well.

You are misinterpreting the law. Men have to take what they can get after a year as well. If they are offered a job as a prostitute, they have to tak it or risk their benefits. It's not a law which states 'if you can't find work you must become a prostitue' it's a law that says 'if you can't find work you have to accept ANY job offer that comes your way'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Considering that the demand for male prostitutes is considerably higher than the demand for female ones, women are much more likely to get pressed into this job. Consequently, depending on how one defines "fairness," this law could be construed as deeply unfair to women even though the law applies to all unemployed Germans.

Edited by Solar Wind, 01 February 2005 - 06:32 PM.

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#32 Atavus

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 06:38 PM

Finally, with some help of some friends back home in Germany, I've been able to track down the German version of this. It's shocking to say the least. This story was originally published in the Tageszeitung (TAZ is a left-leaning paper, just FWI) back in mid-2003! The events being talked about occured in April 2003 (read it here).

I have no earthly idea why the Telegraph chose to pick this up over 1 1/2 years later, but I'm sure this loophole has been closed by now and everything is fine. The fact that it's so old certainly explains why I had such a hard time tracking the story down (the German sites I visit charge a fee for their archives if you try to go back longer than a week).
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#33 Nonny

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 07:31 PM

Thanks, Atavus.  I think I understood most of it, though my German is pretty rusty.  Good to know that it's an old story.  I'll join you in hoping that everything is now fine.  But what a shock!  

I found this at Yahoo just now, which is why I came back:  

Yahoo Oddly Enough article

Quote

A spokesman for the Federal Labor Office said that if job seekers said they were prepared to work as, for example, dancers in strip bars, advisers could put them in touch with any suitable employers, but vacancies would not be displayed in job centers.

He also stressed job centers would not look for prostitutes on behalf of brothels, nor offer sex industry jobs to people who hadn't specifically mentioned it as an area of interest.

Speculation has grown over recent weeks that Germany's new welfare reforms, obliging the long-term unemployed to take any available job or risk losing their benefits, could lead to women being offered jobs in the sex industry.
The prostitute quoted extensively in the article might very well mean well, but I don't think women should be punished for declining to enter her profession, no matter how long they've been unemployed.  Apparently being willing to become a bar maid was considered close enough to becoming a prostitute in the minds of whoever made the new rules.  That's really unfair to bar maids.  

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#34 Atavus

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 07:49 PM

Thanks for the link Nonny.

Why on earth are they quoting Molly Luft though? She is likely the best known prostitute in Germany, but still. :wacko: Also, this quote

Quote

""One can't expect everyone to be prepared to work in the sex industry," Luft said. "Plus if people aren't very attractive they aren't going to make much money," she added.
coming from her is pretty ironic. She's known for her outragous fashion sense and is obese (she weighs 150 kg/25 stone according to a profile up at MDR.de [MDR is one of the regional television channels].)

[Edited because "weighs" as in "weight" is not spelled "ways". :blush:]

Edited by Atavus, 01 February 2005 - 08:44 PM.

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#35 Nonny

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 08:13 PM

Atavus, on Feb 1 2005, 04:49 PM, said:

Thanks for the link Nonny.

Why on earth are they quoting Molly Luft though? She is likely the best known prostitute in Germany, but still. :wacko: Also, this quote

Quote

""One can't expect everyone to be prepared to work in the sex industry," Luft said. "Plus if people aren't very attractive they aren't going to make much money," she added.
coming from her is pretty ironic. She's known for her outragous fashion sense and is obese (she ways 150 kg/25 stone according to a profile up at MDR.de [MDR is one of the regional television channels].)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wo!  Two thoughts here: One, the kind of denial that would help a prostitute do her job could apply to the mirror.  Two, that women (don't know if this holds true for men) who have to deal with sexual trauma of any kind have a tendency toward obesity.  

Three: not exactly light as air, Molly Luft.  What's that in pounds, 330?  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#36 Talkie Toaster

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 08:22 AM

about 350 :eek:
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#37 darthsikle

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 03:58 PM

Wait a second here.......this is after they are unemployed FOR A YEAR.  Most of the times in the US, you are cut off of unemployment after six months.  I see nothing wrong with it.  Find a job I say.

If you were forced into this right away, I could see a problem with it, but after a year??  get a job and stop being lazy.
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#38 darthsikle

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 03:59 PM

Nonny, on Feb 2 2005, 12:31 AM, said:

  Apparently being willing to become a bar maid was considered close enough to becoming a prostitute in the minds of whoever made the new rules.  That's really unfair to bar maids. 

Nonny

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Most bar maids will sleep with you for a few bucks.
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#39 Cheile

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 04:16 PM

darthsikle, on Feb 2 2005, 01:58 PM, said:

Wait a second here.......this is after they are unemployed FOR A YEAR.  Most of the times in the US, you are cut off of unemployment after six months.  I see nothing wrong with it.  Find a job I say.

If you were forced into this right away, I could see a problem with it, but after a year??  get a job and stop being lazy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


jobs aren't always easy to find.  and you have some nerve implying that someone should be forced into whoring to make a living.  :grr:

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#40 QueenTiye

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 04:21 PM

darthsikle, on Feb 2 2005, 03:59 PM, said:

Nonny, on Feb 2 2005, 12:31 AM, said:

  Apparently being willing to become a bar maid was considered close enough to becoming a prostitute in the minds of whoever made the new rules.  That's really unfair to bar maids. 

Nonny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Most bar maids will sleep with you for a few bucks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That's insulting to bar maids.   :angry:

That said... it isn't in their job description, so they AREN'T forced to do it.

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