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Is there a rising tide of fascism in the U.S.?

Politics-American Fascism Fears

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#21 Douglas

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 08:46 AM

Hmmm, I have to admit that one's hard to top Musezack, but here's something I also found pretty scary:

http://www.usatoday....nts-press_x.htm



Quote

The survey of 112,003 students finds that 36% believe newspapers should get "government approval" of stories before publishing; 51% say they should be able to publish freely; 13% have no opinion.

While I am glad that 51% favor free press, 36% is still a lot of future voters who want the government to control what can be printed.

#22 Zwolf

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 09:11 AM

I wasn't sure about a few things in this thread, so I asked my dad about 'em.  He was working as a diplomat/interpreter in Berlin during WWII, so he'd know if Bibles were banned and what-not.   He said the church was very active and Bibles were readily available, and that Bible quotes were even used on a lot of Nazi propaganda posters.   So, Hitler was definitely using the church, not supressing it, and wrapped his rhetoric in a religious message - faux or otherwise.  

Cheers,

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I'm never talking to you again
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#23 Godeskian

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 09:46 AM

and don't forget the little touches Hitler used like ordering all belt buckles of the military to be engraved with 'Gott Mit Uns' (God with us) and things like that.

I've actually read Mein Kampf, and i have to say that my impression from it was that he was a religious man, and that he considered himself a Christian

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#24 Ilphi

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 10:54 AM

Steven_Q said: said:

and don't forget the little touches Hitler used like ordering all belt buckles of the military to be engraved with 'Gott Mit Uns' (God with us) and things like that.

Was that Hitler? I have to admit I'm not up on my German uniform history, but I'm pretty sure the Imperial Army went to war in 1914 with the same on their belts. I seem to recall a primary Belgian source talking about how these troops were commiting atrocities yet with "God is with Us" written on their belts.

Quote

I've actually read Mein Kampf, and i have to say that my impression from it was that he was a religious man, and that he considered himself a Christian

I went to a great Historical Association lecture a few weeks ago about how to read and interpret Mein Kampf. Hitler was certainly very fatalistic about his life. If memory serves in the first paragraph he talks about his birthplace, in-between Austria and Germany, as being "ordained by Providence" or somesuch. So yeah, not sure about Christian, but there's certainly some kind of higher-being going on there.
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Ye shall call for a miracle, taking Christ at His word.
And for this I will answer, O people, answer here and hereafter,
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#25 Talkie Toaster

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 11:03 AM

Ilphi, on Feb 8 2005, 03:54 PM, said:

Was that Hitler? I have to admit I'm not up on my German uniform history, but I'm pretty sure the Imperial Army went to war in 1914 with the same on their belts. I seem to recall a primary Belgian source talking about how these troops were commiting atrocities yet with "God is with Us" written on their belts.

You're right, "Gott Mit Uns" definately predated the Nazis.
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#26 Palisades

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 12:27 PM

Douglas, on Feb 8 2005, 08:46 AM, said:

While I am glad that 51% favor free press, 36% is still a lot of future voters who want the government to control what can be printed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yes, our public school system (primary and secondary) does a poor job of educating students about their government and their rights.
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"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

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#27 GoldenCoal

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 01:25 PM

After reading the articles and the definitions (thanks guys!), I have to say that I agree with just about everyone that posted on this one.

#28 StarDust

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 06:28 PM

Solar Wind, on Feb 8 2005, 01:27 PM, said:

Douglas, on Feb 8 2005, 08:46 AM, said:

While I am glad that 51% favor free press, 36% is still a lot of future voters who want the government to control what can be printed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yes, our public school system (primary and secondary) does a poor job of educating students about their government and their rights.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I don't believe for a second they want the government to control what is printed per se, and I'm sure they are fully aware of their rights, as are they aware of the lack of responsibilty by the press.  just another example of something out of context.  Do you want A, and why.  But the why is always ignored so it can be twisted. Such as when the press and left kept reporting on surveys in Iraq that said they didn't want us there, but often neglected to say the same didn't want us to leave. No one wants another army in their country. That doesn't mean they don't feel it's necessary, or that it's not wanted given the circumstance. But the implication was twisted to imply the thought we should leave yesterday, and it's not true.

In this case I bet it has far more to do with the appalling state of the press.  A press that often seems to forget it's American. A press that often seems to forget that just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.  There is a big difference.  And most people's feelings also have nothing to do with the left leaning of the press. (Yes they are mostly left leaning, but it's funny how the left thinks that's ok but it's terrible that there are some right leaning. Rather hypocritical.) It has to do with improper behavior which seems to be mostly for ratings/money/glory.  

There are many things that should not be reported. Many people where horrified as we went into Afgahnistan and then Iraq, when the press was reporting leaks as to the where abouts of troops, especially Special Forces that had arrived ahead of time.  They've done it again recently in claiming that there are special forces in Iran.  As far as I'm concerned there had better be special forces in Iran, but they should't be blabbing it in the media. Yet they had a fit when a spy was outed. How is that any different other than what side they are sticking it to in the process of the story? Or the fact that no one seemed to get mad at the reporter who reported that the spy's identity had been leaked, and who she was. He was just as guilty, but then the press rarely blames anyone in their own ranks, do they? I happen to think that the press should get permission before reporting this type of stuff if they can't regulate themselves.  And many of them have proven they can't, although NBC and ABC do fairly well. CNN and CBS do poorly.  I don't watch Fox or MSNBC, so I can't say.

What about now where the press seems to be bored so they are trying to whip the whole Iran thing into a frenzy.  There is not one iota of new info, they are just suddenly 'scandalizing' old news, presumably because they are bored, and because their fear-mongering about the Iraq elections were proven wrong. Do they ever stop to think they could actually start a war by making people in Iran think we are about to attack?  Most of us know better than take the press with more than a few grains of salt, but do they?

What about all the personal lives that are destroyed in this country because the press goes after a scandal, or often even creates one, dragging in innocent people.  Often times the damage is done by the time the mess is cleaned up, and any reporting that the press made a mistake is often hidden on 'the back page'.

Somewhere, someone started lauding this idea about some noble press protecting the people. It's mostly bull.  They are merely part of the checks and balances that realize the uglier side of human nature, an adversary relationship like congress going after their self-interest. The problem is the press really answers to no one.  And modern technology makes it even easier for them to create damage.  Of course they do somewhat answer to their audience, and for a change their audience is certainly talking back.  I think that's a good thing. I think it's strange that people who believe the voice of the people should be heard change their stance when that voice isn't in support of them :)

So I don't think peole want the press to be regulated by the government on whole. I do think people want them to be more regulated when it comes to national security, and to have to suffer consequences when they do these things.  Mostly I think people want the press to grow up, be more responsibly, and to remember they are human beings and Americans first, ratings seeking  journalists third.  You do not give people in this country far enough credit, and both sides seem to be making a huge effort to make us all one-dimensional.  Everything is far deeper than that.

#29 Nonny

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 07:37 PM

Call Me Robin, on Feb 7 2005, 11:01 AM, said:

On the other hand, Michael Savage's forthcoming book is called "Liberalism Is a Mental Disease," and Ann Coulter has said that the best way to talk to a liberal is "with a baseball bat." 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, my gut response is to say, she'd better hope she never tries it on me.  I'm well able to defend myself, cripple though I am.  :ninjadeath:  

My next response is to say, how can she presume to give advice about something she can't do herself?  What a dope!  :lol:

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#30 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 09:49 PM

I've been saying these same exact things since day one of the Appointed Presidency - this is brownshirt-ism disguised (thinly, in my eyes) as so-called compassionate conservatism, fortified with a mandate of crushing pseudo-religious certainty and self-deluded aggrandizements masquerading as fact.

Then GWB gets up and says congress needs to be fiscally responsible.

Are you kidding me?

CONGRESS needs to be more fiscally responsible? Mr President, You spend 41% more than when you took over, NOT INCLUDING the hundreds of billions necessary to fight the 'war on terror', the increased pentagon spending and all the other myriad cash hemorrhages spawned by this monstrosity of an administration; and that doesn't even take into account the massively moronic tax cuts you rammed through which you now want to make - in what has got to be the worlds most idiotic decision in the history of stupid people - permanent. Last year you said you wanted to halve the deficit but it's $19 Billion higher this year than last and you expect people to believe anything you say? Mr. President, tell the truth. I don't believe a word that comes out of either side of your mouth. Not me, not ever. Strangely enough though, so many of the masses believe you - to their eventual despair.

I'm sure the Gonzalez Secret Police will be knocking on my door at any moment, since freedom means nothing to him and his ilk, or his master, or the puppetmaster beyond.

Keep your heads down. :whistle:

Edited by Gefiltefishmon, 08 February 2005 - 09:58 PM.

"To know that you do not know is the best. To act from the pretense that you know when you do not know is a disease" - Lao Tzu

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#31 Palisades

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 10:13 PM

Gefiltefishmon, on Feb 8 2005, 09:49 PM, said:

I've been saying these same exact things since day one of the Appointed Presidency - this is brownshirt-ism disguised (thinly, in my eyes) as so-called compassionate conservatism, fortified with a mandate of crushing pseudo-religious certainty and self-deluded aggrandizements masquerading as fact.
Appointed? This time around Bush was elected by a majority of the popular vote and a majority of the electoral vote. It wasn't a landslide, but it was a clear win.

Last time around, Bush won the electoral vote. If you don't like how Florida ran its election, take it up with Florida, but you're late to the ballgame.


Quote

Then GWB gets up and says congress needs to be fiscally responsible.
I would appreciate it if GWB would act like a consertive and cut government spending.


Quote

I'm sure the Gonzalez Secret Police will be knocking on my door at any moment, since freedom means nothing to him and his ilk, or his master, or the puppetmaster beyond.

~sigh~ Coulter was right. It's pointless trying to talk to some liberals.

Edited at mod's request

Edited by Solar Wind, 08 February 2005 - 10:56 PM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#32 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 10:17 PM

Quote

SW hefts a baseball bat.

:eek4: So I deserve to be beaten to death for dissent?

Point proven.
"To know that you do not know is the best. To act from the pretense that you know when you do not know is a disease" - Lao Tzu

"From All, One; and From One, All" - Heraclitus

"Let me be clear: however the world's goblet turns there will always be those drunk on the wine of the Self" - Ghalib

"A 'politically savvy challenge to evolution' is as self-evidently ridiculous as an agriculturally savvy challenge to euclidean geometry would be." - Charles Pierce

#33 Palisades

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 10:21 PM

...

Edited by Solar Wind, 08 February 2005 - 10:57 PM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#34 Shalamar

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 10:52 PM

I'm no longer a mod in this forum, but I have to say

Solar Wind, it's against board policy to threaten another with harm, and to me that is what your post appears to do.
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#35 Palisades

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 11:01 PM

Shalamar, on Feb 8 2005, 10:52 PM, said:

Solar Wind, it's against board policy to threaten another with harm, and to me that is what your post appears to do.

If I were actually going to deliberately harm someone, I wouldn't give any warning.

Edited by Solar Wind, 08 February 2005 - 11:01 PM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#36 Palisades

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Posted 09 February 2005 - 07:40 PM

Gefiltefishmon, on Feb 8 2005, 10:17 PM, said:

So I deserve to be beaten to death for dissent?
No

Quote

Point proven.

Wrong. I was merely intending to suggest that you're incapable of reasoned discussion on this matter.

Edited by Solar Wind, 09 February 2005 - 07:55 PM.

"When the Fed is the bartender everybody drinks until they fall down." —Paul McCulley

"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson

FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade

#37 offworlder

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Posted 09 February 2005 - 10:26 PM

wow, several things here, and I don't usually jump into these but, (I really should have kept the thread page up to ref while writing!) ...
First- Shal, you're a mod, who cares if the two named to this forum aren't here, that's why there are two handfuls of mods... the admin made you a mod, so you can mod, you are trusted and liked and have the big blue bar, so no apologies, you can mod and you said it great there: I too noticed a change in mood in this thread, too bad no one read my wonderfully written post, if I do say so myself, over in that AQ forum ..... (ho hum)
:rolleyes:
Second- I basically agree with Gef's take on the actions of the prez, though I don't say personal things about him, in fact I might like him aimiably if I met him- but I won't go more into that here ...........
:whistle:
Third- the brownshirt label was tossed up by that columnist to create notice, controversy, for the writer to get seen and be a name, because that all is what political columnists do : hey! I should write all about it, become one, and do it right, but then, hey: they wouldn't like me much then would they ......
:unsure:
Four- there really isn't brownshirting going on there in Wash-town, and I'm slightly offended by the writer's word choice and instigation ... it's really not that, it's just a bit of "so we can outnumber 'them' now so let's use that power to make it all how we want" -isms ......... mixed with a tablespoon of "grab the big stick we now wield and push as far as we can for what we want" -isms .....
But that's very different from the actions of the brownshirts in the 30s .... and that, Mr Texas, ain't no bull ...............
:yin-yang:
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#38 Zwolf

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Posted 10 February 2005 - 09:11 AM

Quote

I was merely intending to suggest that you're incapable of reasoned discussion on this matter.

******* If your idea of a good way to argue that somebody else is incapable of reasoned discussion is to threaten to pick up a bat, then guess what?

You lose.

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#39 Spectacles

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Posted 10 February 2005 - 09:25 AM

Quote

offworlder: Third- the brownshirt label was tossed up by that columnist to create notice, controversy, for the writer to get seen and be a name, because that all is what political columnists do : hey! I should write all about it, become one, and do it right, but then, hey: they wouldn't like me much then would they ......

I don't blame you for being suspicious along those lines, offworlder. But when you look at the author's bio, published at the bottom of his article, you get this:

Quote

Dr. Roberts [send him mail] served as Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. During the Cold War era, he was a member of the Committee on the Present Danger. He is a former Associate Editor and columnist for the Wall Street Journal editorial page and a former contributing editor of National Review. During 1986-87 he assisted the French government’s privatization of socialized firms and was awarded the Legion of Honor. He is the co-author of The Tyranny of Good Intentions.

http://www.lewrockwe.../roberts75.html

I think Roberts and other conservative/libertarian critics of the Bush administration mainly resent the hate mail accusing them of being un-American, etc.--a large portion of which seems to come from the right-wing radio listening public.
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#40 Lover of Purple

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Posted 10 February 2005 - 10:59 AM

I see some people making "swipes" at other posters. Let's keep this about the subject, not the poster.



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