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Is there a rising tide of fascism in the U.S.?

Politics-American Fascism Fears

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#61 waterpanther

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 03:37 PM

tennyson--Certainly Imperial Rome drew its army from all over the empire and in many cases made no attempt to suppress local culture. That's not really germane to Berman's point, though.

Indeed, when you look at some of the figures involved in the invasions of the Roman Empire, the parallels are even closer than Berman draws them.  Alaric, who famously sacked Rome in 410, was trained by and had served with the Roman Army.  Bin Laden was trained by and served the interests of the CIA/American government during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.  Romulus "the Great," eventually supplanted by Odoacer, was a bit of a dolt.  George W. Bush . . ..   But you get the point. :D
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#62 tennyson

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 04:11 PM

China currently has 20 ICBMs that can reach the continental United States, and one nuclear submarine with 16 single warhead missiles which cannot reach the US from its dock, none of thier other weapons can even theoretically reach the US, so your statement about them having enough nuclear weapons " to wipe us out in a matter of hours." is in error. Before the 1990s they only had 10 ICBMs and the submarine so at no point have they had the ability to "wipe us out." They could "wipe out" Taiwan with the 300 shorter-range missiles they have based near it or India with thier intermediate range weapons but not the US.
I don't think you are acknowledging how inclusive the Roman Empire trully was or how its internal weaknesses developed to the point where it collpased in the West. They had reached a point where the empire was so large that it couldn't be governed from a central location with the technology they had so you had numerous provincal power centers developing to takeover administration duties that became local fiefdoms, stranggling the central authority due to lack of taxes and recruits who still had loyalty to the empire as a whole rather than thier region. The internal power struggles were just as important to its fall in that they became more important to the leadership than dealing with the structural problems that had developed in food production, guild training and local leadership, thus weakening them enough for external forces that were being driven into the Roman Empire by other external forces(horse nomads from the steppe) to enter into the Western empire and eventually assume control. The Barbarians were trying to become a part of the Roman system, not cast it down. In Dacia, the greatest battles between Roman forces and the "barbarians" were fought when they refused to allow the barbarians to settle in Roman territory and become vassals of the empire. Instead, the barbarians were left in refugee camps along the border zones to fend for themselves. The Ostrogoths tookover the governance of Rome and Italy as the emperor would have, adopting the same customs, laws and advisors as his predessor. The current crop of  Islamists want nothing of what the West has, they want no part in the cultures, trapping or wealth that the West offer and want to through down the system entirely and replace it with thier own, while the vast majority of the "barbarians" who were involved in the breakup of the western empire wanted to be part of the Roman system but were not allowed to be.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

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#63 Call Me Robin

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 09:55 PM

Back to the topic of fascism, I found the following piece by Rep. Ron Paul, a Republican from Texas.

When even a Republican congressman is warning Americans, you know there's a problem.
Of all the varieties of virtues, liberalism is the most beloved.
--Aristotle

The fanatic is not really a stickler to principle. He embraces a cause not primarily because of its justness or holiness but because of his desperate need for something to hold onto.
--Eric Hoffer

#64 waterpanther

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 10:11 PM

Twenty MIRV'ed warheads might not wipe us out in the sense of destroying the entire population, but I think they might well put the US out of commission as a government and a nation. And of course, we'd retaliate while they were in the air and everybody would get a nice big dose of the fallout on the prevailing winds. . ..

Yes, the Roman Empire was inclusive and yes, the Ostrogothic refugees originally wanted to settle within its borders for protection against the Huns, among others.  Fritigern led his tribe out against Valens only when the Romans instead abused and enslaved his people.  It's also quite true that Theodoric set up his Italian kingdom on the legal forms of the Empire.  But the Goths were by no means the only tribes involved, nor did all of those tribes want to adopt the Roman way of life.  The various Saxon groups certainly did not,  nor did the Franks.  In fact it wasn't until Charlemagne that anyone could again creditably call himself "Emperor of the Romans" in the west.  Even then, the "Holy Roman Empire" remained a tribal/feudal state without anything like the scope of the Eastern Empire and was frequently under the thumbs of the Popes.
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#65 waterpanther

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 10:13 PM

Quote

And the author of the essay is clearly trying to draw a parallel between Rome and America.

True, but he's doing so on a far wider basis than the one point you've taken out of context.
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#66 tennyson

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 10:39 PM

The last report I read had them as single warhead. China doesn't have any MIRVs yet and the infrastructure to survive as a nation after a limited nuclear strike still exists as a leftover from the Cold War. With a few minutes warning of launch enough personel could be in the air to takeover government even if all thier warheads performed flawlessly(which is very unlikely considering that no one has ever launched an ICBM on a circumpolar trajectory and the CEP[circular error probablity, the circle in which the warhead has a fifty percent chance of hitting the target] is huge in comparison to our own missiles). That's why we have things like KNEECAP and the E-4 mobile command post.  
Neither the Saxons or the Franks were moving into areas that were still imperial territory when thier own mass migrations happened. When the Vandals, Goths, Ostrogoths, etc, went through the Saxons and Franks were still in thier native territories in Germania and didn't move into Great Britian and Gaul until Imperial authority had already collapsed in those regions. They never had contact with the imperial core regions.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#67 G1223

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 12:40 PM

And John Kerry showed he was willing to wait till the UN made up[ it's mind about where he should go next. Or untill we were attacked and then launch into a stern protest in the UN about the attackers.

But hey at least he has the radio that lets him hear the future.
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#68 Nonny

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 12:50 PM

^Oooo, I want one a those!  Hey, maybe somebody should give one to Dubya!   :rolleyes:

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#69 Nonny

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 01:24 PM

Rhea, on Feb 10 2005, 11:01 AM, said:

I find it morally contemptible that anybody, regardless of party, can go as overboard as the Republicans have the last 5 years. Whatever happened to fiscal responsibility, for instance? Ah well, at least my brother the Republican can't use that one in arguments any more.  :devil:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bummer of a silver lining.  :(

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#70 G1223

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 03:50 PM

Sorry it is on the fritz. It got broke when Kerry discovered that it did not tell him he'd lose.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#71 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 04:41 PM

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Tennyson: one nuclear submarine with 16 single warhead missiles which cannot reach the US from its dock,
The ballistic missiles submarines most likely never gets to leave port without one of our fast attack boats trailing behind it.  So I would largely discount it as a credible threat in my book.  

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Tennyson: The last report I read had them as single warhead.

The last I knew they had a single 2 MT to 5 MT warhead with an estimated CEP of 500 to 3,500 meters.  China has tried to MIRV their missiles before but run into various technical issues that have stalled them so most likely I’d wager that MIRVs are still out.  On top of that the missiles are liquid fueled so the Chinese need at least thirty to sixty minutes to get their missiles fueled and readied for launch.  You can only leave them fueled for a limited time under two days at most and then at that point you’ll have to remove the fuel from them and service the missiles.  So really if we got lucky and spotted China fueling the missiles then we could take them out with a first strike if need be.  

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Waterpanther: Twenty MIRV'ed warheads might not wipe us out in the sense of destroying the entire population, but I think they might well put the US out of commission as a government and a nation.
That assumes that all those missiles are aimed at the United States.  In reality they are probably split targeted between the United States and Russia.  Sure the Russians and Chinese are nominal “allies” for buying arms from one another but there is a lot of bad blood between the two nations.  I’m more than willing to bet several major Russian cities have Chinese ICBMs aimed at them.  So that knocks the number down even lower.  In addition depending on how many NMD GBIs are deployed at the time they could have the potential to seriously hinder any Chinese nuclear strike.  

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GFM: We've run simulation after simulation on our mainframes here at the university and the eventual outcome is always the same - Global Thermonuclear destruction.
Global Thermonuclear destruction caused by whom?  The only two countries that have that type of capability are the United States and Russia.  Neither is exactly in love with radical Muslim fundamentalists and highly unlikely to launch a strike on the other on their behalf.  Now there may be the threat of accidental nuclear war in a “Sum of All Fears” scenario if cooler heads didn’t prevail but overall no one except the US and Russia have that type of capability.

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 14 February 2005 - 04:41 PM.

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#72 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 10:11 PM

It's true that only the US and Russia have that capability, but it doesn't mean it would not be used.

Any non-contained conflict that escalates to the nuclear threshold (regardless of it's intial players) will more likely than not (66.89% chance) escalate to a global level within 12-18 hours - the flip side is that the shock and horror of the rest of the world invites swift and disproportionatly drastic retribution - which could be just as disasterous.

Remember all that has to happen is the involvement of SE Asia and the India/Pakistan situation explodes - a lot of anxious trigger fingers in that part of the world, all they need is an excuse - Musharraf is not in the most secure of positions, and India would like nothing more than to wipe Pakistan off the face of the world - this in turn involves the Russians and the Chinese who, of course, involve the US (with more than even certainty of probability).

Likewise if the situation develops in the area of the Middle East we would have one - and only one - chance to defuse the situation before Israel retaliates with massive force and throws their entire nuclear arsenal (is it more than 10 or less than 10 - nobody knows and they aren't talking) around the region - dragging in the rest of the Arab powers and eventually Russia - but global meltdown may be avoided in this case by swift action on the part of the US and other Nations. The superpowers would HAVE to act in order to protect the resources thier economies so badly depend upon.

If it starts in Asia though - and especially Indonesia, it's not going to be pretty. Now that Kim Jong Il has a bomb (IF he even does) how much tension in the area would prod him into action do ya think? Taiwan is a tempting target especially if Beijing thinks we are distracted with another issue (say terrorism and unrest in Indonesia??). An attractive opportunity would make Tawain irresistible to them and they would then act - which would cause a response and as you noted, if the Chinese launch, we are not their only target.

It IS encouraging to note however that as a whole we are much further from the brink than we were during the cold war - but much closer than we've been in over a decade.
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#73 tennyson

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 11:10 PM

The most conservative estimate I ever saw for the number of nuclear weapons Isreal has was 100 in an article I read from 1988, while the more prevelant position was that Isreal had around 200. If Isreal decides to launch its entire nuclear arsenal thier won't be enough left of its Arab nieghbors to make a viable civilization let alone threaten the existance of Isreal itself so I don't see how it could escalate further. Russia isn't going to risk anything for piles of radioactive glass and blasted desert, especially with its level of influence in the region at an all time low. I just don't see why or how Russia would consider attacking Isreal after the fact, it would gain them nothing.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5




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