Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

An update on the cookie story

Law Damages Cookie Story

  • Please log in to reply
57 replies to this topic

#41 Tricia

Tricia

    To err on the side of kindness is seldom an error.

  • Islander
  • 10,245 posts

Posted 13 February 2005 - 05:59 PM

Digital Man, on Feb 13 2005, 09:17 PM, said:

 
Explaining yourself oftentimes doesn't work, because you have to keep in mind that folks are gonna see things through THEIR perspective. It doesn't matter how off that perspective is-their perspective oftentimes is the ONLY one that matters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That pesky perspective thing  :D

Yep....known too many people who never take into account that old maxim about 'walking in the other man's shoes"  I always try to see all sides of an issue. Thus the reason that I said in an earlier post that neither side is completely right or completely wrong...


Chelie said

Quote

okay Saul your points are good but the second one has me asking this. why is it their fault this woman can't accept a random act of kindness? she called the sheriffs and took their recommendation to stay elsewhere for the night. that should have been the end of it.


Again that pesky perspective thing...hurt feelings...anger....wanting something the other person wasn't giving her emotionally or whatever...whether they understood what she was expecting from them or not.  We don't know what happened in whatever conversations went on between these people

Maybe a basic lack of communications between both groups....were they talking too or AT each other....very big difference between the two things

We each empathize with one side or the other in this case...depending on our own life experiences as to which side.

Edited by trikay, 13 February 2005 - 06:05 PM.

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#42 Vapor Trails

Vapor Trails

    In a world where I feel so small, I can't stop thinking big.

  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 16,523 posts

Posted 13 February 2005 - 06:06 PM

Cheile, on Feb 13 2005, 04:44 PM, said:

Digital Man, on Feb 13 2005, 02:26 PM, said:

I think the girls are guilty of nothing more than being INCREDIBLY naive. If you're going to do a "good deed" for someone, you need to think about-

1) HOW you're going to carry out this deed

and

2) WHO are you doing it for..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


okay Saul your points are good but the second one has me asking this.  why is it their fault this woman can't accept a random act of kindness?  she called the sheriffs and took their recommendation to stay elsewhere for the night.  that should have been the end of it.

but instead it's turned into what it is now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Perhaps you misunderstood or I wasn't being clear. When you plan to go and do something for folks, you need to take into consideration all the positives and negatives. Again-the only fault these girls have IMO is that they were naive. The fact is that you can't assume that everyone will react positively to what you do-even with the best of intentions at heart.

What I'm saying is that these girls need to become more aware of how people act and react to given situations. This is ESPECIALLY important when you take into consideration how law-suit crazy the U.S. is.

These girls got a harsh lesson in this instance. Hopefully, they will have learned from it. Frankly, the most common way of learning things in life is the hard way. It's not necessarily the best or fairest way-but that's how it is.

Life isn't about comfort.

Saul

Edited by Digital Man, 13 February 2005 - 06:18 PM.

Posted Image

Politicians are like bananas; they hang together, they're all yellow, and there's not a straight one among them.

"We're relevant for $ and a vote once every two years. Beyond that, we're completely irrelevant, except of course to consume, and preach the gospel according to [insert political demigod here]."--Cait

#43 ZipperInt

ZipperInt
  • Islander
  • 1,825 posts

Posted 13 February 2005 - 07:21 PM

Good post, Saul.


Cookie? :D
The second greatest podcast in the history of ever:
http://geeksonaplain.blogspot.com/

#44 Vapor Trails

Vapor Trails

    In a world where I feel so small, I can't stop thinking big.

  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 16,523 posts

Posted 13 February 2005 - 09:25 PM

ZipperInt, on Feb 13 2005, 07:21 PM, said:

Good post, Saul.


Cookie? :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Oreo cookie with a raspberry center.  :wideeyed:

And DON'T tell me they haven't thought of that.

:p
Posted Image

Politicians are like bananas; they hang together, they're all yellow, and there's not a straight one among them.

"We're relevant for $ and a vote once every two years. Beyond that, we're completely irrelevant, except of course to consume, and preach the gospel according to [insert political demigod here]."--Cait

#45 Nikcara

Nikcara

    confused little imp

  • Islander
  • 3,500 posts

Posted 14 February 2005 - 07:08 AM

See, I would be more sympathetic to the girls' apology if it didn't come with legal text.  That would strike me at least as 'we're not at all sorry, we're just covering our behinds'

So I still think the woman over-reacted, but the girls are far from faultless.  As this progresses I feel more sympathy for Mrs. Young and more and more annoyance at the girls.
We have fourty million reasons for failure, but not a single excuse  -- Rudyard Kipling

Develop compassion for your enemies, that is genuine compassion.  Limited compassion cannot produce this altruism.  -- H. H. the Dalai Lama

#46 Godeskian

Godeskian

    You'll be seein' rainbooms

  • Islander
  • 26,839 posts

Posted 14 February 2005 - 07:14 AM

the legal disclaimer to me, seemed like a prudent move in the current sue-happy United States.

Perspective, as always, is everything.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#47 Nonny

Nonny

    Scourge of Pretentious Bad Latin

  • Islander
  • 31,142 posts

Posted 14 February 2005 - 10:37 AM

Steven_Q, on Feb 14 2005, 04:14 AM, said:

the legal disclaimer to me, seemed like a prudent move in the current sue-happy United States.

Perspective, as always, is everything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not nearly as prudent as it is insulting, though.  The clear implication is that, since the stereotypical American will sue you as soon as look at you :blink: , ass covering is more important than apologizing.  And the clear implication of that is ME ME ME I'm all important and my ass is more important than the harm that's been done to you. If you blow the apology by demonstrating that it's all about you, you might as well be throwing down the gauntlet.  In this case, ass covering was mighty unproductive.  

Nonny
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#48 Godeskian

Godeskian

    You'll be seein' rainbooms

  • Islander
  • 26,839 posts

Posted 14 February 2005 - 11:17 AM

Nonny, on Feb 14 2005, 04:37 PM, said:

Not nearly as prudent as it is insulting, though. 

Probably true. Of course my perspective is probably different from yours in that regard.

Quote

The clear implication is that, since the stereotypical American will sue you as soon as look at you :blink:

Uhm, meaning no disrespect Nonny, but given the absolutely idiotic things that have been posted in OT alone with regards to what peolpe will and won't sue for, I think it would feature on people's minds.

Quote

If you blow the apology by demonstrating that it's all about you, you might as well be throwing down the gauntlet.  In this case, ass covering was mighty unproductive. 

Yup, it was. However i'd like to note that ms Young did not accept the apology that was offered. The fact that she rejected out of hand the apology that was offered, and insisted a specific type of apology that she wanted, probably didn't help (and for that matter may have contributed to the degeneration of this whole mess)

I agree that a written apology isn't as viscerally satisfying as an in person one, but I have to admit that i'm at a loss to understand why she would have rejected it and demanded a personal one.

but again, maybe that's just me.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#49 Nonny

Nonny

    Scourge of Pretentious Bad Latin

  • Islander
  • 31,142 posts

Posted 14 February 2005 - 11:28 AM

Steven_Q, on Feb 14 2005, 08:17 AM, said:

However i'd like to note that ms Young did not accept the apology that was offered. The fact that she rejected out of hand the apology that was offered, and insisted a specific type of apology that she wanted, probably didn't help (and for that matter may have contributed to the degeneration of this whole mess)

I agree that a written apology isn't as viscerally satisfying as an in person one, but I have to admit that i'm at a loss to understand why she would have rejected it and demanded a personal one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was all about the release, which is all about the ass covering.  The apology was only the means to deliver the release form.  She did not receive a real apology, she received an insult.  

This is beginning to remind me too much of the time I was knocked to the floor by a janitor wielding an excessively long-handled broom, and nobody would help me to my feet because the manager of the store was waving them off and feverishly shoving a form and a pen in my face.  I refused to sign, I didn't sue, and I never shopped there again.  How sue-happy was I?  A little concern, a little courtesy, a helping hand would have been nice, but all I got was the get her signature before she comes to her senses shuffle.  Dang, now I have to do my breathing exercises and picture this guy dying horrible deaths again.  

Nonny
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#50 Godeskian

Godeskian

    You'll be seein' rainbooms

  • Islander
  • 26,839 posts

Posted 14 February 2005 - 11:41 AM

Nonny, on Feb 14 2005, 05:28 PM, said:

It was all about the release, which is all about the ass covering.  The apology was only the means to deliver the release form.  She did not receive a real apology, she received an insult. 

uhm, we'll have to agree to disagree then. My read of it was that they made an apology, and even if their was ass-covering (which there was) that apology was ignored.

Quote

This is beginning to remind me too much of the time I was knocked to the floor by a janitor wielding an excessively long-handled broom, and nobody would help me to my feet because the manager of the store was waving them off and feverishly shoving a form and a pen in my face. 

You see, i would have cheerfully ignored the manager and helped you up. (i know i'd do this because i've done something similar involving a wet floor and an elderly gentleman in a Hema store in Holland some years ago), because it would be the decent thing to do.

Personally, i'm not scared of being sued, so whatever discomfort the manager felt would have left me remarkable undisturbed.

Quote

I refused to sign, I didn't sue, and I never shopped there again.  How sue-happy was I? 

I didn't mean it that way Nonny. I'm sorry if you took it personally, and I think i'll head on back to my own forum before I make it worse.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#51 Rhys

Rhys

    ... a learning experience.

  • Islander
  • 5,491 posts

Posted 14 February 2005 - 12:15 PM

Without the release, offering to pay the bills could even be used as evidence against you in a lawsuit.  You've effectively already accepted responsibility, the only question then is how much it's worth.

It's a realy shame that US society has got to that - forget coming up with the next big invention/business deal, forget even winning the lottery - finding someone you can sue is the new "American Dream".

Rhys
"It's easy to bond over hating something together - The Internet is total proof of that." Cyd/Codex, The Guild

Change the world!  No one can do everything, but everyone can do something.

#52 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 14 February 2005 - 12:22 PM

Rhys, on Feb 14 2005, 09:15 AM, said:

Without the release, offering to pay the bills could even be used as evidence against you in a lawsuit.  You've effectively already accepted responsibility, the only question then is how much it's worth.

It's a realy shame that US society has got to that - forget coming up with the next big invention/business deal, forget even winning the lottery - finding someone you can sue is the new "American Dream".

Rhys

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Actually, most evidence codes specifically state that offers to settle cannot be used to prove culpability (though if a lawyer can think of a *different* reason for using them then they can get it in).

But your point is very well taken.

Lil
Posted Image

#53 FlatlandDan

FlatlandDan

    Sophisticate

  • Islander
  • 8,824 posts

Posted 14 February 2005 - 12:27 PM

Something that is important to remember is that these girls probably have had no choice in how this is delt with.  Their parents appear to be in charge of the situation (as well they should be). So the girls might have wanted to apologize but the parents simply wanted to make sure things would be ok on a legal front.

I'm 22 years old and I *still* defer to my dad when anything remotely legal comes my way.  If he had told me that it would be best not to talk to someone for a legal reason, I wouldn't talk to them.
My candle burns at both its ends;
It will not last the night;
But oh, my foes, and oh, my friends --
It gives a lovely light."
-Edna St. Vincent Millay

#54 JadziaDax

JadziaDax

    E.I.'s resident insomniac

  • Islander
  • 2,612 posts

Posted 14 February 2005 - 12:29 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Feb 14 2005, 10:22 AM, said:

Rhys, on Feb 14 2005, 09:15 AM, said:

Without the release, offering to pay the bills could even be used as evidence against you in a lawsuit.  You've effectively already accepted responsibility, the only question then is how much it's worth.

It's a realy shame that US society has got to that - forget coming up with the next big invention/business deal, forget even winning the lottery - finding someone you can sue is the new "American Dream".

Rhys

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Actually, most evidence codes specifically state that offers to settle cannot be used to prove culpability (though if a lawyer can think of a *different* reason for using them then they can get it in).

But your point is very well taken.

Lil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Then what about car accidents?

(tangenting)

I heard you can't even say "I'm sorry"...I mean...well, er....yeah. What if the "I'm sorry" was part of the sentance "I'm sorry you hit me you big dork"?
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup

#55 Nikcara

Nikcara

    confused little imp

  • Islander
  • 3,500 posts

Posted 14 February 2005 - 02:50 PM

^That seems like pretty sketchy evidence to me....for one thing you would have to prove that it was said, which is court would sound like two little kids trying to tattle on each other.  I can see it now
"He said he was sorry!  That means he knew he did something wrong!"
"Did not!"
"Did to!"
ect

Besides, I'm not going to take very seriously what someone says right after an accident anyway as to who is culpible - for one thing you first have to establish that all victims still have their full mental capacities.  I've seen car crashes where the patient denied ever hitting their head and seeing huge starring patterns in the windshield (indictive that their head actually hit the window quite hard and probably passing out).  Having someone who whacked their head so hard they think that Regan is still president say that they're sorry for causing an accident won't stand up for anything in court.

Besides that, I've never met someone who wasn't shaken up after an accident.  I've had people who weren't at fault apologize to the other driver, to me, and to random strangers (ok, that's mostly when a crash ends up happening on someone's lawn, but point still stands).  It doesn't mean that much as far as guilt.
We have fourty million reasons for failure, but not a single excuse  -- Rudyard Kipling

Develop compassion for your enemies, that is genuine compassion.  Limited compassion cannot produce this altruism.  -- H. H. the Dalai Lama

#56 eloisel

eloisel

    Non-sequitur

  • Islander
  • 1,998 posts

Posted 14 February 2005 - 06:52 PM

My question is about the release - maybe Lil or someone else knows the answer.  

Ms. Young's medical bills were more than $1400 - about $900 out of pocket, meaning her insurance coverage picked up the remainder of $500 plus.  Now, if Ms. Young signs the indemnity - promising to defend the girl's/parents against further suits in that matter - if Ms. Young's insurance company decides to dun the girl's/parents for the portion that the insurance company paid, and the girl's/parents don't pay and are subject to a lawsuit for failure to pay, is Ms. Young responsible as she did sign the indemnity agreement?

#57 eloisel

eloisel

    Non-sequitur

  • Islander
  • 1,998 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:40 PM

Ah, ha ... I asked around at work today and got the answer.  Depending on how the indemnity clause is worded, Ms. Young could be liable for the portion of the medical bills paid by insurance if the insurance company dunned the girls'/their parents for that portion and the girls'/their parents refused or failed to pay.  So, while a release and indemnity may be standard operating procedure in a settlement, I can see why Ms. Young's attorney might advise her not to sign the release and indemnity because it could expose her to future liability for the insurance paid portion of the medical bills she incurred because of the incident.

And, what Lil said about offers of settlement proving culpability - settling out of court happens all the time - even if the person paying is innocent/not liable - because it quite often costs much more money (not to mention time, aggravation, upset, and all around bad times) to fight it out in court than it does to settle.  In addition, you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip.  If the person suing you has no money, even if you win the suit and get awarded reimbursement of attorney's fees, if you can't collect, it doesn't do you much good.

#58 G1223

G1223

    The Blunt Object.

  • Dead account
  • 16,164 posts

Posted 15 February 2005 - 11:47 PM

I can bet when the wicked whitch gets home she will deal with the neighbors shutting her out of any community decisions.(After all who wants sued for knocking on her door and talking to the biddy)
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Law, Damages, Cookie Story

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users