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Senator's Comments Draw Fire

John Kerry Iraq

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#121 MichaelHinman

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 06:52 AM

CJ AEGIS, on Apr 5 2003, 09:37 PM, said:

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However, Reagan's economic policies being successful is incorrect.

Here I have to disagree.  I also think I could get a fair amount of economists to agree with many assuming they had the brains to set the political rhetoric aside.  Deficit spending and trickle down economics works to get the economy back on track and strong.  

A few simple facts that one can easily dig up and verify that I pulled out of stuff I have around.
- Inflation averaged at 12.5 percent when Reagan entered office and it was reduced to 4.4 percent when he left.
- During his administration Interest rates fell six points.
- Eight million new jobs were created as unemployment fell during his administration.  When he took office the unemployment rate was 7.6 percent and was down to 5.5 when he left office..
- An eight percent growth in private wealth occurred during it.
- In none of the years following the tax cuts that were made did revenue to the Federal Government decline. The actual budgets did grow larger but the military budget was smaller than during the administrations of Johnson and JFK.
- The average annual growth rate of real GDP from 1981 to 89 was 3.2 percent per year.  This is compared with 2.8 percent from 1974 to 81 and 2.1 percent from 1989 to 95.
- The real median family income rose from $34,200 in 1980 up to $37,000 in 1988 and in fact has fallen off by $1,000 in the post Reagan years leading to now.  Prior to Reagan there was no growth in this area.  

In addition prior to the election that brought Clinton into power the economy was on the recovery if you look back at the information.  Reaganomics was one of the great successes that pulled the economy out of a recession; you just have to swallow the pill (debt), have patience for the effects to show in the long term, and then things will settle out.

Quote

MichaelHinman:Reagan had a great foreign policy.

Agreed.  Excellent foreign policy and true to his nickname as a great communicator.  

Reagan I think long term in the history books will go down as a great president that most everyone the time looked over.  Not quite the same level as an Lincoln or Teddy Roosevelt and not the level of an Eisenhower.  More as a guy who was in the office and actually knew what he was doing there.
Interest rates falling six points is not normally a sign of a strong economy.
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#122 DWF

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 07:16 AM

I think most people are missing the point, it's not about polical mudslinging, it's about freedom of speech. Polical officals are often held more accountable to their words, than the rest of us, mainly for the purposes of polical mudslinging. It seems like we simular conversations, about the Mods and Admins around here. Or is there a strong reaction to accountability here, or is it just me? :suspect:
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#123 Uncle Sid

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 07:22 AM

AnneZo, on Apr 5 2003, 11:38 AM, said:

Not that I'm expecting us all to be fair and completely impartial, but you might at least mention the attempts that Clinton made to institute things like corporate reform before the outrage by contributors and the outrage in Congress put a stop to them, okay?
My bias certainly came out there, if it was any secret before, but it wasn't my point to bash Clinton.  The point was that presidents really aren't all that capable of fine tuning economies.  We all expect them to, but the fact is that the government is really rather ham-handed when it comes to controlling business cycles.  Even the vaunted Federal Reserve, dropping rates as low as they've ever been, couldn't really stop it.  

The point you made about Clinton trying to make coroprate reform actually supports my point.  Presidents can't simply fix the economy.  There are too many things in the way, like Congress or contributors which make it difficult, if not impossible.  

I've said this before and I'll say it again.  The government does not understand business and business does not trust the government.  Its one thing for the government to step in and do very basic and high level things like ensuring contracts and monetary policy, but its another thing althogether to get it to be able to change corporate culture.  Further, the idea that the government will step in and save the day is also a problem.  If people think the government is going to take care of everything, people don't get motivated to make the changes themselves.  

In any event, no matter what, the point is that blaming Bush for the recession what has its roots both in things that happened well before his term, and for things out of his control like 9/11 is faulty reasoning.
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey

#124 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 07:30 AM

DWF, on Apr 6 2003, 04:05 AM, said:

I think most people are missing the point, it's not about polical mudslinging, it's about freedom of speech. Polical officals are often held more accountable to their words, than the rest of us, mainly for the purposes of polical mudslinging. It seems like we simular conversations, about the Mods and Admins around here. Or is there a strong reaction to accountability here, or is it just me? :suspect:
No I disagree with you.  Kerry bashed the current administration.

Opposition candidates have been doing this from day one.

I am appalled that people like the Speaker are using this War to try and erode one of the cornerstones of this country:

the concept of loyal opposition.
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#125 DWF

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 07:33 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 5 2003, 11:19 PM, said:

DWF, on Apr 6 2003, 04:05 AM, said:

I think most people are missing the point, it's not about polical mudslinging, it's about freedom of speech. Polical officals are often held more accountable to their words, than the rest of us, mainly for the purposes of polical mudslinging. It seems like we simular conversations, about the Mods and Admins around here. Or is there a strong reaction to accountability here, or is it just me? :suspect:
No I disagree with you.  Kerry bashed the current administration.

Opposition candidates have been doing this from day one.

I am appalled that people like the Speaker are using this War to try and erode one of the cornerstones of this country:

the concept of loyal opposition.
It's also about free speech, and being held accountable for that speech.
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#126 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 07:50 AM

No DWF it's not.

Take a look again at what the Speaker said:

Quote

But whatever the motivation for Kerry's comments, House Speaker Dennis Hastert refused to sit back and take them. He issued remarks Thursday, calling Kerry's comments misplaced during this time of war.

"Once this war is over, there will be plenty of time for the next election. But the war is not yet over, and we still have much work to do to rid the world of Saddam Hussein and his brutal regime," Hastert said in a statement.

"Sen. Kerry's remark, equating regime change in Iraq with regime change in the United States, is not what we need at this time. What we need is for this nation to pull together, to support our troops and to support our commander-in-chief."

He is equating a lack of support for the war to being unpatriotic and not supporting the troops.

He is calling for UNANIMOUS support during the war.  THAT is Un American.

By insisting that people must unanimously support Bush, i.e., not criticize, he is saying that this war means we can suspend things that are a part of ALL elections.  That is a dangerous thing and the problem is that people are buying into it and that scares me.

The fact that there is a War on does not mean that we put the election on hold.  A Campaign is a campaign and a fundamental part of campaigning is to convince your voters that they should vote for you.  If you are not the incumbant this necessarily means talking about why the incumbant should not win.

Would "I" have said what Kerry said in his position?  I don't know.  I'm not too sure it will aid his campaign.  But that is completely irrelevant to the question of whether he should be ALLOWED to act like a man running against the incumbant simply because we're in a war.  What's next?  A declaration of martial law?  Shall we now say that "oh there'll be time enough for people to actually elect someone once the war is over?"

No no and NO.

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 06 April 2003 - 07:55 AM.

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#127 Rov Judicata

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 07:51 AM

Once again, I'm with Lil on this one.

He has free speech.

Free speech has consequences; let's let the voters, not Fox News, decide what those consequences should be.

:). IMO.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#128 MuseZack

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 08:07 AM

Interestingly, this incident has inadvertantly turned into the best thing to happen to Kerry's otherwise rather uninspiring campaign.  By actually punching back, and punching back hard, he's pretty much silenced the GOP criticisms and energized the Democratic base, which has been burned too many times by candidates refusing to defend themselves (Dukakis, anyone?)

Here's CNN's newest spin, from Inside Politics:  

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MS), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They're trying to shift this, in the phony way that they often do. And they're making some kind of false claim about patriotism. And I'm not going to be questioned in my      patriotism by the likes of Tom DeLay, when they are cutting money for veterans in this country, when they are reducing the money for the V.A. Hospital, when they're reducing money for housing for veterans' families in America.
    
     The real test of patriotism is in how you make America stronger. And we fought for the right to be able to talk in this country about real choices.   And they come along with these phony claims. I'm not going to be deterred by it. And I'm not going to be pushed around by them.
    
     (END VIDEO CLIP)
    
     KARL: Now, two quick points about this, Judy.
    
     One is that Kerry's aides privately say that they actually relish this criticism. They think that, in a Democratic primary, it's not a bad thing to be in a fight with Tom DeLay and other top Republicans. And it also points out the fact that John Kerry is one person in the race that has war experience. He's a veteran, of course, of the Vietnam War.



Someone in the Kerry camp is definitely a practitioner of the James Carville school of campaigning: "The other guy can't badmouth you when he's got your fist in his mouth."  
Look for Kerry's campaign to spin this whole incident as "look, he's the candidate the Republicans are most afraid of, so they're attacking him already."  And in American politics, spin is everything.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#129 Rov Judicata

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 08:17 AM

^

I've been noticing that Zack.

I may or may not vote Bush when the time comes; at the moment, Kerry is looking like the most attractive (feasible) alternative. I'm sure that was deliberate... frankly, I respect him for stating his mind, even if I disagree. :).
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#130 Uncle Sid

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 08:19 AM

Heh, looks like I win my own 50,000 quatloo bet about how Kerry would be getting out of this without even a nick.  Now that is one well run spin machine.  

Next thing you know, he's going to punch out DeLay's granny and get even more praise by screaming:

"YOU WANT SOME OF THIS?  HMM?  COME GET ME YOU GOP SISSIES!!!"

He'll definitely get the wrestling vote and maybe a contract from Vince MacMahon.

:ninja:
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey

#131 Rov Judicata

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 08:23 AM

Looking over Kerry's words:

Quote

The real test of patriotism is in how you make America stronger. And we fought for the right to be able to talk in this country about real choices

I think that summarizes my feelings about this quite well. <And, keep in mind, I'm a more or less firm supporter of this war.... and I think Kerry is more American than a sheep going along because he things it's politically convenient. He may yet suffer at the polls, but that's his perogative.>
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#132 MuseZack

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 08:35 AM

Uncle Sid, on Apr 6 2003, 05:08 AM, said:

Heh, looks like I win my own 50,000 quatloo bet about how Kerry would be getting out of this without even a nick.  Now that is one well run spin machine. 

Next thing you know, he's going to punch out DeLay's granny and get even more praise by screaming:

"YOU WANT SOME OF THIS?  HMM?  COME GET ME YOU GOP SISSIES!!!"

He'll definitely get the wrestling vote and maybe a contract from Vince MacMahon.

:ninja:
It's impossible to underestimate the Democratic desire for a champion who isn't a total wimp.  It's why they put up with Michael Moore, for all his grating self-aggrandizment and rather, er, cavalier attitude toward the facts.

Zack
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#133 Uncle Sid

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 09:39 AM

MuseZack, on Apr 6 2003, 12:24 AM, said:

It's impossible to underestimate the Democratic desire for a champion who isn't a total wimp.  It's why they put up with Michael Moore, for all his grating self-aggrandizment and rather, er, cavalier attitude toward the facts.

Zack
Yeah, I think the Dems are getting a reputation for fielding wimps and slicksters like Clinton.  About the only Dems that I'd think of being able to throw a straight punch would be John Glenn and James Carville.  Kerry was so boring before this, that you could easily forget he was in Vietnam.  

I will say that it's unfortunate that a windbag like Moore is seen as an icon for the Dems, who are often portrayed as the people who are intellectual and should know better.  Unfortunately, I cannot support the Democrats ever until they change their planks on one or two items that are incredibly important, but I will say that I'd love to see a more stimulating match-up than Bush/Gore; the previous election was like a boxing match where they jabbed at each other for points on the score card instead of going for broke and really swinging.  If you take away abortion, and play down welfare and affirmative action, the two parties would be identical.  At that point they could re-merge back into the Democratic-Republicans and we can bring back the Federalists, the Whigs, or my favorite, the Know-Nothing party.  

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I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey



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