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Senator's Comments Draw Fire

John Kerry Iraq

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#21 Drew

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 10:00 PM

Rhea, on Apr 4 2003, 12:25 PM, said:

Dubya scares the hell out of me.
You must scare easily.
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#22 AnneZo

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 10:20 PM

I'm probably going to regret jumping in, but I'm doing it anyhow.  

I agree that Bush is scary. I've said it in another forum - this man worries me.  

As for the "regime" comment, when I look at the list of his appointees, when I read the widely leaked draft text of the so-called "Patriot II Act", when I read that American citizens have been arrested and incarcerated, and kept incommunicado indefinitely without formal charges being filed against them, when I read about these and a dozen other things, I think Kerry's rhetoric wasn't that far out of line.

Anyhow.

The Republican machine did its darndest to bring Clinton down and failed utterly. They tried a lot of things, including, as mentioned previously, loud and quite frankly insulting rhetoric directed at the President when we had troops out fighting.  That same machine was faced with a candidate more interested in debating issues than slinging mud during the next election, and they took advange of that by trying to continue the same tactics of lying and misrepresentation until they almost got their candidate elected. (Not to be interpreted, by the way, as uncritical support of the way Gore's campaign was run.) So they should just stop being so hypocritical.

The state of this country, from the laws respecting corporate behavior to the economy is a disgrace. It's hard to remember the huge budget surplus that Bush inherited when he got into office, he's turned it into a trillion-dollar deficit so quickly.

I don't see any reason Democrats who oppose this war have to sit back and pretend to be mute while it's going on, and I certainly don't see any reason why Democrats who think we need a "new broom" in Washington aren't allowed to stand up and say so.  We need to get rid of this Administration. It's a fiscal and economic disaster.  

I haven't decided what Democratic candidate I most support, but I respect Kerry's willingness to stand up and say something definite.

#23 Rov Judicata

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 10:22 PM

I don't see the problem here.

Call for regime change all you want, Kerry. See you at the polls...

At the same time, I think Fox News takes unfair heat. It has no more bias than MSNBC; it's just conservative instead of liberal. I watch both, and hold them in equal disdain.
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Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

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#24 Bad Wolf

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 10:27 PM

Fox News is just barely a step higher than the National Enquirer.

I had the dubious pleasure of waiting for a flight in a bar playing Fox News and it made me physically ill.  All hyperbole, all sensationalism, all profiting on the misery of other.  It's just distasteful.

Oh and Drew, I guess I scare easy too.:p

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 04 April 2003 - 10:35 PM.

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#25 the 'Hawk

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 10:33 PM

MuseZack, on Apr 4 2003, 12:56 PM, said:

the rank hypocricy of these people beating up on Sen. Kerry and Daschle for criticizing a president during wartime is just rich, given the behavior shown by Lott, DeLay and company before, during, and after the Kosovo war.
What Zack said.

And the suggestion that because Kerry served the country somehow gets him off the hook because Bush didn't is, sadly, not really fair to either men or the thousands of veterans of Vietnam. There are plenty of them who don't support ANY military action. Period. I don't remember Kerry speaking up because the US went to war under the Clinton administration-- it goes both ways. If he wants to campaign as a peace candidate, it might help to know he really stands for peace, not just the opposite of war. Because they're not the same thing.

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#26 the 'Hawk

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 10:35 PM

Drew, on Apr 4 2003, 01:49 PM, said:

Rhea, on Apr 4 2003, 12:25 PM, said:

Dubya scares the hell out of me.
You must scare easily.
If Rhea scares easily, then I scare even easier....

'cause Bush scares me, too. For four reasons: the Army, Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force.

So long as he's the CinC, you'd better believe I'm scared.

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#27 MuseZack

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 10:35 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Apr 4 2003, 07:11 PM, said:

I don't see the problem here.

Call for regime change all you want, Kerry. See you at the polls...

At the same time, I think Fox News takes unfair heat. It has no more bias than MSNBC; it's just conservative instead of liberal. I watch both, and hold them in equal disdain.
I think it's easy and glib to equate the two, but not entirely accurate-- especially since MSNBC fired their only unabashedly liberal host (Donahue) and replaced him with a gay bashing extreme rightist (Michael Weiner, er, Savage.) There really isn't a precedent for an entire news network being founded by an operative from a political party (Roger Ailes) and pretty unabashedly acting as a megaphone for the views of that same political party.

Zack
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#28 Rov Judicata

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 10:36 PM

EDIT: Zack snuck one in on me. This is in response to Lil.

We'll agree to disagree on this'n then.

Fox News has its moments. But so does every TV network; asking them to be fair and balanced is a lot like asking <insert a really good metaphor here. Come on, use your imagination!>.

Oh, also:

Bush scares me as well. I disagree with much of his agenda; the latest issue, the war, is one I happen to support him on. <To be more precise, I support the action itself. There were mistakes made in the lead-up-- such as bothering with the UN at all, and letting Turkey slip through our fingers-- but that's in the past now.>.

Edited by Javert Rovinski, 04 April 2003 - 10:42 PM.

St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#29 Rov Judicata

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 10:41 PM

MuseZack, on Apr 4 2003, 12:24 PM, said:

I think it's easy and glib to equate the two, but not entirely accurate-- especially since MSNBC fired their only unabashedly liberal host (Donahue) and replaced him with a gay bashing extreme rightist (Michael Weiner, er, Savage.) There really isn't a precedent for an entire news network being founded by an operative from a political party (Roger Ailes) and pretty unabashedly acting as a megaphone for the views of that same political party.

Zack
Chris Matthews tend to subscirbe to the liberal side too.

Still, you have a point. I was surprised to see Michael Savage employed by MSNBC.

And, again.. Fox News is pretty much the Republican Information Network [TM pending]. However, they do have liberal hosts; Colmes (sp?) comes to mind. MSNBC may not have been founded by an operative from the Democrats, but-- in effect-- they're almost always promoting the democratic opinions. When's the last time you saw something pro-life or anti-gun control on MSNBC? What about the affirmative action case, where the real position of the plaintiffs was distorted time and time again?

I think they're roughly equal. Having said that, before the war, I rarely watched all that much TV news; I prefer credible sources of information. ;).

I concede that I don't know the TV landscape that well, and maybe there's more egregious things I haven't seen. And your point about Michael Savage is well-taken.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#30 Lover of Purple

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 10:45 PM

I know I'll regret this, but here goes:

First off, I like President Bush. Contrary to what many liberals like to say, he has done everything he has said( Well, as long as congress agreed). He has been honest, he is compassionate and not afraid to stand up for his country.

What many of us (and I include myself) forget is that the President has access to information and experts we don't. And here we all sit trying to second guess him. (Hey, I did the same with Clinton until I reminded myself he had info I didn't).

As far as President Bush scaring anyone, I can't understand why at all. Al Gore scared me, but that's me. Now, I will defend anyone's right to not like any president we have, had ot will have. IT IS OUR RIGHT! But plesae, let's keep the President bashing to a minumum if possible. He is not the satan some seem to think.

So Damn Insane had to go! Funny so many felt the same way during the original Gulf War but now slam President Bush for doing just that. I really do see double standards here. And many in the country attack the president and NEVER mention Saddam's evilness. Yet they will say he has to go. I often feel like G here (and have seen it over my 40 plus years) that if it is a Democrat President doing this same thing, the liberals either applaud him or keep quiet. (Yes, yes I know the Republican Senate spoke out..but that's politics I expect it...even from Senator Kerry). But why did we not hear from the liberals when Clinton attacked Kosovo?

Now that I've made the mistake of speaking up here, I guess I'll back out.

Please everyone, I am not pointing fingers. I don't think that liberals hate this country, they feel different than I do. There are several viewpoints here and I don't think everyone who disagrees with my view point is unAmerican. As a matter of fact, I think they are very American because they believe their way is best for our country. We just happen to disagree.

Would I like to see more support for our President...of course. But I don't hate anyone that doesn't like him.

LoP

#31 Bad Wolf

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 10:49 PM

Quote

Please everyone, I am not pointing fingers. I don't think that liberals hate this country, they feel different than I do. There are several viewpoints here and I don't think everyone who disagrees with my view point is unAmerican. As a matter of fact, I think they are very American because they believe their way is best for our country. We just happen to disagree.

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#32 Josh

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 10:50 PM

^

I don't think he's going to get that support from me. As much as I hate sticking labels on myself, I think I'm definitely more liberal than conservative (of course, living in one of the most liberal cities in the countries probably helps) and yes, Bush scares the hell out of me.

Skipping the war for a second (which has me very conflicted either way), I find a lot of his policies at home very worrying. Choke it to different viewpoints, I guess.

As for the senator, it was his right to say what he did, but he had to be aware of the consequences of his actions (especially at the poll). And like Lil, I find it extremely offensive that not being behind the war without reservation puts me into the anti-American anti-patriotic camp by many people.

Edited by Josh, 04 April 2003 - 10:54 PM.

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#33 Cardie

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 10:50 PM

Heck, I've been asking for a regime change ever since the war talk started. Doesn't bother me in the slightest what Kerry said.

Any Democratic candidates are welcome to borrow my own personal slogan, "Want a war in the Gulf and  a devastated economy at home? Put a Bush in the White House."

They may not be a regime, but they are one scary dynasty, imo.

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Edited by Cardie, 04 April 2003 - 10:51 PM.

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#34 MuseZack

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 10:51 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Apr 4 2003, 07:30 PM, said:

MuseZack, on Apr 4 2003, 12:24 PM, said:

I think it's easy and glib to equate the two, but not entirely accurate-- especially since MSNBC fired their only unabashedly liberal host (Donahue) and replaced him with a gay bashing extreme rightist (Michael Weiner, er, Savage.) There really isn't a precedent for an entire news network being founded by an operative from a political party (Roger Ailes) and pretty unabashedly acting as a megaphone for the views of that same political party.

Zack
Chris Matthews tend to subscirbe to the liberal side too.

Still, you have a point. I was surprised to see Michael Savage employed by MSNBC.

And, again.. Fox News is pretty much the Republican Information Network [TM pending]. However, they do have liberal hosts; Colmes (sp?) comes to mind. MSNBC may not have been founded by an operative from the Democrats, but-- in effect-- they're almost always promoting the democratic opinions. When's the last time you saw something pro-life or anti-gun control on MSNBC? What about the affirmative action case, where the real position of the plaintiffs was distorted time and time again?

I think they're roughly equal. Having said that, before the war, I rarely watched all that much TV news; I prefer credible sources of information. ;).

I concede that I don't know the TV landscape that well, and maybe there's more egregious things I haven't seen. And your point about Michael Savage is well-taken.
I agree with you in the sense that all the American cable news channels are pretty much shallow, superficial crap-- whatever their political biases.  

The web and the BBC are much better sources of information.  In general, to keep myself informed I try and gather information from all sorts of news sites from across the political spectrum and judge for myself.


Again, I'll plug agonist.org as a great clearinghouse of war information that's presented in an unbiased fashion and updated in real time.

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#35 Bad Wolf

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 10:53 PM

Er...

and needless to say (but I'll say it anyways), I agree with Cardie.
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#36 Drew

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 11:13 PM

Remind me again how the Clinton Administration helped the economy? He came into office as we were heading out of a recession, and he left office many months after we'd headed back into one. This great economy he always took credit for was none of his doing. And the recession for which Bush gets blamed began months before the election.
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#37 Rhea

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 11:25 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 4 2003, 11:42 AM, said:

Er...

and needless to say (but I'll say it anyways), I agree with Cardie.
Me too. What a surprise!  :lol:  :lol:

And Lil is right, LoP. You rock!

What scares me most about Bush (other than the war and wondering who he's going to want to invade next) is his economic plan. How many hundred economists (including 4 or 5 Nobel prize winners) have to tell you it's a crock before you start paying attention? And common sense alone would dictate that when you're waging a war that is costing many billions of dollars, not to mention the many billions already tossed about after 9/11, that would not be a good time to cut taxes and lose your surplus.

So the answer to why he scares me is simple: I see a lot of rhetoric, a distinct lack of common sense, and money being taken away from schools, the elderly,  and social programs while taxes are being cut.  :eek:  :eek:
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#38 Kahoutek

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 11:29 PM

Okay, I have to respond to the "Bush scares me" comments.

Bush does NOT scare me.  I do not agree with him on all points, but then he has quite a bit of information that I don't have now ... and may never have.

What does scare me?  The overall attitude of our leaders (and Americans in general) towards the rest of the world.  The middle east is the powder keg of the 21st century, but "we" (America) continue to show a bias towards the Isreali viewpoint and against that of the Arab communities.  We could use our influence to facilitate real change and progress, but we don't.  The result will likely be stuff that is much worse than the war in Iraq.

Bush does not lead by himself.  Like many Presidents, he depends on "trusted advisors" and a circle of other leaders.  It is the attitude of this group of influence that concerns me.

I don't really care if people disagree strongly with the war, or even if they say really dumb things (as politicians often do).  These are minor little news snippets that have nothing to do with the flow of history.  

I hope and pray that all of us (but especially Americans) will develop the wisdom to be a positive influence on the rest of the world.   [For the non-Americans, I hope that you will develop an understanding of the incredible pressue that our country is experiencing during this period of history; we often feel like the world sees it as "it is all up to us".]

Kudos, again, the Islanders for discussing a hot topic without attacking each other!  Way to go!
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#39 Banapis

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Posted 05 April 2003 - 12:13 AM

kimmer, on Apr 4 2003, 06:10 PM, said:

My problem with Kerry speaking out in this manner at this time? He pledged not to do this while the war was going on. Now he's just shown me that he is NOT a man of his word. But then, what politician is?
How do you define “speaking out"?  Was this a large national address?

No.

It was a comment made to a meeting of democratic voters at a New Hampshire town library during the course of an election campaign.

So who made it a national issue?  Why do we now read nationally circulated stories about the remark?  Because of the Republican Speaker of the House and the Republican House majority leader, that’s who.

Does Kerry’s joke about the need for an American “regime change” contradict his position?  He’s running for President, of course his position is that Bush must go.  And how does that make him a liar?*  The Fox News article claims that he agreed to “lighten up on criticism.”  Lightening up does not mean he pledged to take a vow of silence never ever to criticize Bush.  (And it should be noted “lightening up” is inherently subjective and open to just about any interpretation you want, because extreme opposition could still be lesser to some extent than it was before).  Not to mention, this remark is taken woefully out of context when it’s clear that the thrust of Kerry’s remarks is not about the ongoing Iraq conflict at all, but a concern over international relations and the need to rebuild bridges after the Iraqi conflict.  Something he believes an administration led by himself will be able to accomplish -- and he’s not shy about telling voters that.

This is nothing new.  Kerry voted for the resolution to authorize Bush to oust Hussein.  However, he has always been critical of Bush’s handling of the matter on the diplomatic front.  So there's absolutely no contradiction between his remarks at that library meeting and his stand on the issue in the past.

In sum, this was simply natural and healthy campaigning on the part of Kerry.  

IMO, it was the Speaker of the House who was way out of line by trying to silence democracy in action.  The Speaker explicitly acknowledges that his beef with Kerry is for having the audacity to campaign for the next election: “Once this war is over, there will be plenty of time for the next election.”

No democracy until the war is over?  No election talk until the war is over? No campaigning until the war is over?  I don’t think so, Mr. Speaker.  It’s these assaults on democracy by petty partisan politicians that most alarm me.  The attempts by the Speaker and others of his ilk to wrap themselves in the American flag and demand all criticism of their policies be turned off until a time and place of their choosing.  It’s a blatant attempt to prevent the opposition from getting their message out and otherwise shorten the length of the campaign period.

That type of political manipulation is fascist and un-American.  Not to mention damn insulting to those now dying in Iraq, to have their deaths used as a partisan tool to silence political opposition.

Banapis

*Note: It’s the Fox News story that makes that wild leap of logic.  (Another reason to be wary of Fox News reports).  The writer initially refers to a nebulous remark by Kerry that “he would lighten up on criticism” and then 4 paragraphs later, declares Kerry has egregiously breached “a pledge to refrain from criticism.”

Edited by Banapis, 05 April 2003 - 02:25 AM.


#40 G1223

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Posted 05 April 2003 - 12:21 AM

Banapis, on Apr 4 2003, 09:02 PM, said:

kimmer, on Apr 4 2003, 06:10 PM, said:

My problem with Kerry speaking out in this manner at this time? He pledged not to do this while the war was going on. Now he's just shown me that he is NOT a man of his word. But then, what politician is?
How do you define “speaking out"?  Was this a large national address?

No.

It was a comment made to a meeting of democratic voters at a New Hampshire town library during the course of an election campaign.

So who made it a national issue?  Why do we now read nationally circulated stories about the remark?  Because of the Republican Speaker of the House and the Republican House majority leader, that’s who.

Does Kerry’s joke about the need for an American “regime change” contradict his position?  He’s running for President, of course his position is that Bush must go.  And how does that make him a liar?*  The Fox News article claims that he agreed to “lighten up on criticism.”  Lightening up does not mean he pledged to take a vow of silence never ever to criticize Bush.  (And it should be noted “lightening up” is inherently subjective and open to just about any interpretation you want, because extreme opposition could still be lesser to some extent than it was before).  Not to mention, this remark is taken woefully out of context when it’s clear that the thrust of Kerry’s remarks is not about the ongoing Iraq conflict at all, but a concern over international relations and the need to rebuild bridges after the Iraqi conflict.  Something he believes an administration led by himself will be able to accomplish -- and he’s not shy about telling voters that.

This is nothing new.  Kerry voted for the resolution to authorize Bush to oust Hussein.  However, he has always been critical of Bush’s handling of the matter on the diplomatic front.  So's there's absolutely no contradiction between his remarks at that library meeting and his stand on the issue in the past.

In sum, this was simply natural and healthy campaigning on the part of Kerry.  

IMO, it was the Speaker of the House who was way out of line by trying to silence democracy in action.  The Speaker explicitly acknowledges that his beef with Kerry is for having the audacity to campaign for the next election: “Once this war is over, there will be plenty of time for the next election.”

No democracy until the war is over?  No election talk until the war is over? No campaigning until the war is over?  I don’t think so, Mr. Speaker.  It’s these assaults on democracy by petty partisan politicians that most alarm me.  The attempts by the Speaker and others of his ilk to wrap themselves in the American flag and demand all criticism of their policies be turned off until a time and place of their choosing.  It’s a blatant attempt to prevent the opposition from getting their message out and otherwise shorten the length of the campaign period.

It’s fascist and un-American.  Not to mention damn insulting to those now dying in Iraq, to have their deaths used as a partisan tool to silence political opposition.

Banapis

*Note: It’s the Fox News story that makes that wild leap of logic.  (Another reason to be wary of Fox News reports).  The writer initially refers to a nebulous remark by Kerry that “he would lighten up on criticism” and then 4 paragraphs later, declares Kerry has egregiously breached “a pledge to refrain from criticism.”
Banapis interesting position. Then Trent Lott should not have been run over the coals  for is statement about Strum Thurman at the party.  But for some reason (Maybe becasue Lott was a Republican) it did happen so what's sause for the goose is not sause for the gander? Or becasue it's a Democrat we need new special rules for them?
Becasue that is how it sounds from here.
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