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Iraq Updates: Part IV

Iraq Updates

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#1 Rov Judicata

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 05:50 AM

Resumed from here

First, many Kudos to Zack for pointing out agonist.org. It's been an invaluable resource.

Secondly: http://www.upi.com/v...05-055459-7042r

Interesting analysis of the urban warfare to come. Money quote:

Quote

Our urban warfare tactics are tried and true. They work. So, the fighting will not be as bloody as many people think. Still, clearing Baghdad will not be easy by any means. Overconfidence should be guarded against. "I think this whole thing is at the culminating point," said one senior general a few days ago at the Pentagon "[But] once we smash the Medina and Baghdad divisions, it's game over, and I think Baghdad will fall." That kind of enthusiasm should be avoided. Urban warfare is not rocket science, but it is a lot like jungle fighting in that it demands care and focus and tends to punish those who take their enemies lightly.

It's a well-written article. The other important thrust is that Saddam has done us two major favours:

1) Keeps the Republican Guard out of the city (fearing a coup), making them much easier to pick off outside of city limits.
2) Long, wide roads, so that he can quell any civilian uprisings with his own tanks. Just wide enough for an Abrams...

We'll be sure to send Saddam a fruit basket.

Anyway, here's another interesting tidbit:

The Minister of Information has promised to take journalists to Saddam Int'l Airport tomorrow, to prove that it hasn't been taken over. How is he going to weasel his way out of that one?

Ono more:

US Air Force: "We had no idea Saddam would be touring Baghdad. If we had known, we would have welcomed him properly.". <I doubt that video was current, but I love the quote>.

Edited by Certifiably Cait, 27 August 2012 - 02:13 PM.

St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#2 MuseZack

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 06:03 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Apr 6 2003, 02:39 AM, said:

Anyway, here's another interesting tidbit:

The Minister of Information has promised to take journalists to Saddam Int'l Airport tomorrow, to prove that it hasn't been taken over. How is he going to weasel his way out of that one?
In today's Independent article by Robert Fisk (blah blah, pro-Palestinian, once you get past his ideological biases he's an excellent on the spot journalist), there's this blackly funny bit:

"Today, we attack," the Minister of Information, Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, was to announced an hour later, and he reeled off a list of Iraqi "victories" to sustain his country's morale. Seven British and American tanks destroyed around Basra, four American personnel carriers and an American aircraft destroyed near Baghdad. At the airport, the Iraqis "confronted the enemy and slaughtered them". Or so we were told.

Well, an Iraqi friend of mine who lives near the airport told me that he had seen a tank on fire, a tank with a black "V" sign painted on its armour. The "V" is the American symbol of "friendly force", intended to warn their pilots from bombing their own soldiers by mistake. So this must have been an American tank.

But Mr Sahaf's optimism got the better of him. Yes, he told journalists in Baghdad, Doura was safe, Qadisiya was safe. Yarmouk was safe. "Go and look for yourselves," he challenged. Ministry of Information officials were ashen-faced. And when foreign correspondents were bussed off on this over-confident adventure, they were turned back at the Yarmouk hospital and the ministry buses firmly ordered to carry reporters back to their hotel.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#3 Rov Judicata

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 06:11 AM

First, I love his articles, bias and all.

Secondly, I hadn't seen that one yet.... that's hysterical! Talk about a lack of communication between the military and the civilian authoroties.... thanks for posting the snippet!
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#4 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 06:17 AM

APC: Armored Personnel Carrier
CAS: Close Air Support
CAV: Calvary
CALCM/ALCM: Conventional Air Launched Cruise Missile CALCM
CBU: Cluster Bomb Unit ex CBU-105
CENTCOM: Central Command
CVBG: Carrier Battle Group
GBU: Guided Bomb Unit
ID: Infantry Division
M113A1: Armored Personnel Carrier: A lightly armored tracked troop transporter. M113
M1A2 Abrams: The latest version of the MBT for the US military. Abrams
M2A3/M3A3 Bradley: The M2A3 Mobile Armored Transport for Infantry Squads. The M3A3 is the scout version of the Bradley. Bradley
MBT: Main Battle Tank
MEF: Marine Expeditionary Force
SAM: Surface to Air Missile
SSM: Surface to Surface Missile
TLAM: Tomahawk Land Attack Missile
UAV: Unmanned Aerial Vehicle Ex.  http:/Ex. RQ-1 Predator


http://www.globemast...dictionary.html <-- Military Acronyms, for those who need

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 06 April 2003 - 06:26 AM.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#5 D'Monix

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 07:53 AM

i can see it now...

Sharaf "There are no american forces in Baghdad, look out window and see for yourself.."

Journalists: looks out window, sees US tankers waving from their M1's...


D'

#6 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 09:15 AM

Re: T-72s dug in to turrets:  

Quote

Rov: CJ-- AGAIN?

That actually baffles me. There's been a million books written on the Gulf War, and tactical blunders made (on both sides). Is there no amazon.com in Iraq?

Apparently this time they must have figured they’d be safe being alongside the road near the airport.  That or they just don’t learn very quickly.  I lean for the second.  I somehow bet though that the Iraqis were just as surprised as I when the Bradleys started shooting through turrets.  That said US doctrine does call for hulling down Abrams for increase defense but it doesn’t mean burying them. The tank actually drives into a trench that it can then back out of.  


Quote

Rov: 2) Long, wide roads, so that he can quell any civilian uprisings with his own tanks. Just wide enough for an Abrams...

Can’t forget the very developed highway system that passes through the entire city.  Nothing like giving us a nice highway to run armor down at full speed and allows us to divide the city into sectors rather handily.    


Quote

Rov: US Air Force: "We had no idea Saddam would be touring Baghdad. If we had known, we would have welcomed him properly.".

You know we do have those nice LG concrete bombs…. SPLAT
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#7 D'Monix

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 10:28 AM

Quote

High velocity 25 mm DU shells hurt.... Apparently more than I ever thought.

Yes, they do.

The Bushmaster is a great weapon, used on the M3 Bradley IFV, the Marine LAV-25, the GAU-12 Equalizer cannon used in the AV8B Harrier II and AC-130U Gunship, and other vehicles.

It has a cyclic rate of around 200 rounds per minute, and is a dual-feed chain gun. for most of it's shells the listed range is around 2000 meters, for the M919 APFSDS-T Round (longrod DU penetrator) the listed maximum range is around 17,600 meters with it's effective range being classified (usually much lower: maybe 3,000 meters)

now, by comparison it's predecessor round was the M791 APDS-T (tungsten core penetrator) the listed data for it gave a muzzle velocity around 4300 feet per second (fps) and it performed very well in Desert Storm, however it was also considered inferior to what the DoD envisioned as the new light vehicle threat, so the M919 was designed and placed into production.  So expect the M919's muzzle velocity to be higher for sure.


That's deadly by itself, the bigger brother of this cannon is the Bushmaster II, which fires the rounds from GAU-8 Avenger cannon found on the A-10.  


My favorite is an old holdover from Vietnam, in it's MOD 3 version now - the MK19 40mm Full-Auto Grenade Launcher.

This bady boy has a firing rate around 375 rounds per minute, though most crews keep it under 40.  and can fire training, dummy, 40 HE, and 40 HEDP grenades that can penetrate light armor (up to 2 inches of steel in fact).   The MK19 was devastating to Iraqi infantry in Desert Storm, since you can literally throw down a wall of explosives.  As an added bonus since the grenades are subsonic and quite large you can see them flying downrange.

I'm a big fan of visually gratifying weapons :)


D'

#8 D'Monix

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 10:54 AM

The Agonist is a very interesting read! :)


To the south of Iraq, Marine forces fighting in the marsh affixed their bayonets for combat against a mixed force of foreign nationals fighting for Saddam's regime. Including Jordanians and Egyptians.

Now there's something that hasn't really happened in our military for a long long time....


D'

#9 Rov Judicata

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 03:51 PM

Iraq:

"Baghdad will be closed from 6 PM to 6 AM. No travel in or out."

Good luck with that. :eek:

Another odd story:

Quote

Marines at the southern outskirts of Baghdad engaged in close-quarters fighting with pro-Saddam volunteers from Jordan, Egypt, Sudan and elsewhere, according to Lt. Col. B.P. McCoy of 3rd Battalion, 4th Marines. His troops used bayonets while battling in the reeds of a marsh.

:unsure:

Washington Post: Various forces-- Republican Guard, Fedayeen, Militia-- have taken up defensive positions in key intersections in Baghdad
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#10 Rov Judicata

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 03:55 PM

No confirmation of whether the attack on Chemical Ali's house took him out or not. However, it is being confirmed that his bodyguard is dust.

Also:

Quote

"Today, the tide has turned," Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf said. "We are destroying them." He read a statement from Saddam telling Iraq's fighters to rush at the Americans and "exhaust (them) and increase the depth of their wounds."

You heard it here first: Iraq concedes that the coalition forces are making progress. Or, at least, were. ;).
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#11 Rov Judicata

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 04:16 PM

CNN's Rodgers: Baghdad surrounded by coalition. All roads in and out of Baghdad are owned by US and UK forces.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#12 the 'Hawk

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 04:39 PM

The BBC is reporting a major UK offensive to take Basra has also commenced.

Go team.

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#13 the 'Hawk

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 04:42 PM

NBC has said that reporter David Bloom has died in Iraq.

Edit to add, from MSNBC's website:

"David Bloom, an NBC News correspondent embedded with the U.S. Army’s 3rd Infantry Division outside Baghdad, died Sunday, NBC announced. Bloom, a 39-year-old husband and father of three, died of an apparent pulmonary embolism, the company said. He was the second American journalist to die in Iraq since the war began."

:unhappy:

Edited by the 'Hawk, 06 April 2003 - 04:45 PM.

“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#14 Rov Judicata

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 04:57 PM

Excellent at Basra... :( at Bloom.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#15 D'Monix

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 06:59 PM

On the next raid i'd be thinking about visiting Iraqi TV and complaining about them showing Sharaf and not "Friends".

:devil:

D'

#16 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 07:06 PM

Updates:
- A Russian diplomatic convoy that was fleeing Baghdad was attacked.  Several people were injured in the attack from what I can gather it was all small arms fire.  It looks to be like 4 or 5 people were injured.  CENTCOM reports that no US troops were operating in that region when the convoy was attacked.  The US Ambassador to Russia has said that US troops will now make sure that the Russian diplomats make it out safely. *
- 3ID has sent another recon force into Baghdad on Sunday and again report they faced sporadic resistiance.
- Basra: British forces are on the offensive in Basra and have bombarded the Baath party headquarters in the center of the city.  The Royal Marine Commandos led the attack by striking from the southwest.   The 7th Armored Brigade led the assault on the city with several hundred Challenger tanks and numerous troops.  British troops say they are being welcomed by civilians waving, cheering and sounding the horns but have been attacked by Iraqis in civilian clothing.
- Some sort of battle is underway in western Iraq between Iraqi forces and I think the 1st MEF.  U.S. Marines and Army forces control all roads into and out of Baghdad, encircling the Iraqi capital according to a high-ranking senior Army officer.
- US forces have begun to airlift Iraqi opposition fighters that are under the control of the Iraqi National Congress into southern Iraq.  This includes as many as 500 fighters.  
- An Iranian general stated that hundreds of bodies discovered in a makeshift morgue by British forces near Basra are those of Iranian soldiers killed in the Iran-Iraq war
- Sheikh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi the grand imam of Egypt's al-Azhar Mosque often seen as the highest spiritual authority for Sunni Muslims says Saddam Hussein was wrong not to go into exile to avert the war.
- In northern Iraq, a U.S. warplane mistakenly dropped a bomb on a U.S.-Kurdish convoy Sunday.  The attack killed at least 12 Peshmerga fighters and injured at least 45 Kurds.  Some US Special Forces were traveling with the convoy and initial reports indicate some may have been wounded.

* Lina do you have anything on this one?

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 06 April 2003 - 07:08 PM.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#17 Lina

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 07:46 PM

CJ AEGIS, on Apr 6 2003, 07:55 PM, said:

- A Russian diplomatic convoy that was fleeing Baghdad was attacked.  Several people were injured in the attack from what I can gather it was all small arms fire.  It looks to be like 4 or 5 people were injured.  CENTCOM reports that no US troops were operating in that region when the convoy was attacked.  The US Ambassador to Russia has said that US troops will now make sure that the Russian diplomats make it out safely. *

[snip]

* Lina do you have anything on this one?
Not much. I can only assure everyone that there are no implications(sp?) about which side fired at the convoy. Both American and Iraqi representatives in Russia were summoned to the Foriegn Ministry and requested to investigate this event.

Reporters, who decided to stay in Baghdad, seem to gather the following information (this is me translating what I saw on TV today). The convoy was heading from Baghdad, accompanied by Iraqi police (me: now THAT seemed to be a stupid move). At some point they ecountered a firing and decided to move around it (that's what a guy on TV said), but got fired at and several people were wounded. They had to leave one car. Noone was killed and they continued moving, when they saw several vehicles and stopped to avoid confusion. They sent one car with a Russian flag ahead to explain who they are, but got fired at again and several more people got wounded, but noone was killed. Then vehicles went away and the convoy continued to move. Wounded (no more then 5 people are reported to be injured from various sources) received help from Iraqi medics at one city along the way and a special flight is prepared to evacuate injured.

At this time, it is uncertain which side fired at the convoy.

Edited for clarity.

Lina

Edited by Lina, 06 April 2003 - 08:02 PM.


#18 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 08:28 PM

Thanks Lina.  

Quote

Lina: (me: now THAT seemed to be a stupid move)

It doesn’t exactly strike me as the most obvious of brilliant ideas.  

As for the rundown you gave I don’t think it was US forces most likely.  From the sounds of it they were under attack from vehicles?  For all the things that can be said an Abrams, M113, HMMWV or Bradley is pretty distinctive as the transports for US troops.  It could have been disgruntled locals snipping at the convoy and Iraqi police; though that would surely be a case to show how close the regime is to collapse.  The other possibility is that it was Iraqi forces hitting at the Russians to try to frame US forces.  

Easiest way to tell is when they pull the bullets out of the people and vehicles.  US forces would most likely be using NATO 5.56 mm.  That is assuming whoever fired on them wasn’t smart enough to use NATO 5.56 mm to throw off investigators.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#19 Lina

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 08:31 PM

^^^ one of TV channels promises an interview with an eyewitness in couple of hours - one of their reporters was with this convoy. I'll tell if there will be something new.

Lina

Edited by Lina, 06 April 2003 - 08:31 PM.


#20 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 09:19 PM

Updates:
- More details on the raid earlier today: CENTCOM says up to 2,000 to 3,000 in the way of Iraqi forces were killed in the raid.  The incursion was a raid into an industrial center in southern Baghdad by two elements consisting of about three dozen armored vehicles. Apparently it was about a 25 mile long raid into Baghdad.
- At least two C-130s and a C-17 has landed at Baghdad International Airport.  
- CENTCOM: The Mother of All Battles Mosque and Saddam Hospital in Baghdad are being used as military bases by the Iraqis.  
- U.S. National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice arrived Sunday in Moscow for talks with senior Russian officials. Rice is expected to discuss Iraq with Russian officials.
- Senior US military commander say the Iraqi army defending Baghdad is now struggling to assemble 1,000 soldiers for each battle.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE



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