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Iraq Updates: Part IV

Iraq Updates

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#81 Rov Judicata

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 07:04 PM

Also:

While one of the most important events of the war was going down... while the Baghdad residents were finally allowed to breathe free.... the BBC deigned to show an earthquake in India rather than that footage. I haven't heard how big the earthquake is yet... but come on. That's absurd.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

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#82 Drew

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 07:09 PM

The BBC was also putting an interesting spin on the celebrations in Baghdad, only saying that it was "utter anarchy" and making a bigger deal of the looting than the fact that the Iraqis are joyful over their liberation. (In fact, it seems that the looting taking place is only the looting of Saddam's palaces.)
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#83 Norville

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 07:13 PM

Quote

this is really grim stuff

Well, this is war, and this is what war does and costs. The San Francisco CHRONICLE had a headline that caused a great deal of contempt among many people, "War Turns to Terror." Excuse me, war *is* terror. It doesn't suddenly *become* terror due to suicide bombings.

Quote

Yep. Nobody (very few, anyway) said this would be a cakewalk. :(. According to greenpeace's anti-war website, at least 961 civilians are dead.

I haven't visited that site, but have heard reports about how the hospitals there are overwhelmed with mass casualties. (Why do I fear that someone is now going to claim that the reports I heard were lying and that I'm believing propaganda because of "the company I keep"?)

I think I need to stop reading Letters to the Editor in local newspapers for a while. There are people claiming that it doesn't matter at all how many Iraqi civilians die in the war, that we should keep our minds only on how many died on 9/11/01, and that since some Muslims celebrated it, they *all* deserve whatever they get. So the patriotic thing to do is completely ignore any civilian death toll. And this is in the so-called "liberal" San Francisco Bay Area.

Weird me, I tend to think that war is terrible even if justified, and I regret the mass death caused by it. If I want to feel something for, say, civilians caught in the crossfire, I will. If that makes me unAmerican, that's scary.

Quote

"Journalists watched young men and boys sack the United Nations headquarters in the Canal Hotel to the east of the city centre."

I wonder how the Iraqis are feeling about the UN?

I think, from what I've heard, it's more to do with any civil order breaking down, because looting had been reported in other places, unless I'm mistaken.

It's good that some Iraqis are welcoming groups of soldiers as liberators and not as invaders. Let's hope it lasts.
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#84 Anna

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 07:19 PM

Norville, on Apr 9 2003, 10:02 AM, said:

It's good that some Iraqis are welcoming groups of soldiers as liberators and not as invaders. Let's hope it lasts.
Amen. Let's hope they do.

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#85 Drew

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 07:26 PM

A lengthy critique of the BBC can be found at this link.

Excerpt:


Quote

The BBC’s bad day in Baghdad started early: A column of US soldiers had entered southwestern Baghdad just after daybreak. The soldiers - in tanks and armored personnel carriers - drove through the city for several kilometers encountering only sporadic resistance. Near the university, the column turned left, drove out of the capital and parked at the international airport, which was already securely in American hands. In Qatar, the Coalition command center announced the incursion, saying that elements of the 3rd Infantry had gone into the center of Baghdad. At first, the maneuver was reported as a grab for urban territory. Later, more accurate reports, however, said that it was a demonstration by the U.S. that it could and would enter Baghdad at will.

Cut to: Andrew Gilligan, the BBC’s man in downtown Baghdad. "I’m in the center of Baghdad," said a very dubious Gilligan, "and I don’t see anything…But then the Americans have a history of making these premature announcements." Gilligan was referring to a military communiqué from Qatar the day before saying the Americans had taken control of most of Baghdad’s airport. When that happened, Gilligan had told World Service listeners that he was there, at the airport - but the Americans weren’t. Gilligan inferred that the Americans were lying. An hour or two later, a different BBC correspondent pointed out that Gilligan wasn’t at the airport, actually. He was nearby - but apparently far enough away that the other correspondent felt it necessary to mention that he didn’t really know if Gilligan was around, but that no matter what Gilligan had seen or not seen, the airport was firmly and obviously in American hands.

It was important to the BBC that Gilligan not be wrong twice in two days. Whatever the truth was, the BBC, like Walter Duranty’s New York Times, must never say, "I was wrong." So, despite the fact that the appearance of American troops in Baghdad was surely one of the war’s big moments, and one the BBC had obviously missed, American veracity became the story of the day. Gilligan, joined by his colleagues in Baghdad, Paul Wood and Rageh Omaar, kept insisting that not only had the Americans not gone to the "center" - which they reckoned to be where they were - they hadn’t really been in the capital at all. Both Omaar and Wood told listeners that they had been on hour-long Iraqi Ministry of Information bus rides - "and," said Wood, "we were free to go anywhere" -yet they had seen nothing of an American presence in the city. From Qatar, a BBC correspondent helpfully explained that US briefings, such as that announcing the Baghdad incursion, were meaningless exercises, "more PR than anything else." Maybe, implied the World Service, the Americans had made it all up: all day long, Wood repeatedly reported that there was no evidence to support the American claim.

At a lunchtime press briefing, the Iraqi Minister of Information, Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, gave the BBC some solid support: the American incursion was a hoax, said al-Sahaf. No only that, he added, the Iraqis had retaken the airport, the Americans had been driven out and Republican Guard units were "pounding" trapped American troops in a suburban area. The bizarre announcement was accepted at face value by the BBC. For most of the rest of the day, the BBC’s correspondents, including its diplomatic correspondent, Peter Biles, confessed to being "confused" by the conflicting statements of the Coalition military command and the Iraqi information ministry. Who could you believe, they kept asking themselves?

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#86 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 07:27 PM

A huge, though hollow--how metaphorically apt-- statue of Saddam in Firdos Square in Baghdad has just been pulled down.

A small crowd had gathered-- about 100 men mostly-- and manuevered a rope around Saddam's neck after shimmying up  a roughly 30 foot plinth to get to the statue.  When they couldn't pull it down, someone brought a sledgehammer, and they took turns breaking away the plinth.

A couple of marines came in to help. First they briefly displayed an American flag on Saddam's head, then the flag came down and someone handed them an pre-Gulf War Iraqi flag, which was draped around the statue's neck.

Then that flag came down, and a tank towing vehicle came in to help. They attached a chain to the statue, and pulled the dictator head first down to the ground.

The crowd had grown during this time to about 1000.  Once the statue was down on the ground, many men rushed to stand on top, jumping up and down on the back and shouting in jubilation.



Also, the Iraqi Minister of Information, and all the "minders" assigned to keep foreign journalists from free reporting didn't show up for work at the Palestine Hotel this morning.

Ro

#87 Godeskian

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 07:35 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Apr 9 2003, 03:53 PM, said:

Also:

While one of the most important events of the war was going down... while the Baghdad residents were finally allowed to breathe free.... the BBC deigned to show an earthquake in India rather than that footage. I haven't heard how big the earthquake is yet... but come on. That's absurd.
Thank heavens is all i can say

contrary to popular belief, the war in Iraq isn't the be all and end all of human existance

at least the bbc is still devoting some time to the larger world that isn't the middle east

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#88 Rov Judicata

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 07:42 PM

Godeskian, on Apr 9 2003, 09:24 AM, said:

Thank heavens is all i can say

contrary to popular belief, the war in Iraq isn't the be all and end all of human existance

at least the bbc is still devoting some time to the larger world that isn't the middle east
The Earthquake was a 3.2.

A 3.2. This story is of very little relevance, even regionally.

The BBC has had an editorial slant from day one-- even being criticized by one of their own prominent reporters-- and this was absurd. I can't even find any casualty or damage reports for the 'quake, even on the BBC's own sit. That's how small it was.

*shrugs*. Call it what you will. I think it was silly, at best.

Also, I checked out the story on Yahoo! News:

Quote

Mild Earthquake Shakes Indian Capital

That pretty much covers it.

Edited by Javert Rovinski, 09 April 2003 - 07:45 PM.

St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#89 Banapis

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 07:58 PM

^ In fairness to the BBC, they may have been reporting news of the earthquake when it was "breaking news" and didn't know it would turn out to be such a minor quake.

Banapis

Edited by Banapis, 09 April 2003 - 08:13 PM.


#90 Rov Judicata

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 08:09 PM

^

That's true Banapis. And were it not for the criticisms of the BBC by their own reporters, and the hopelessly contrived parsing over the term 'heart' of Baghdad, I'd be more inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#91 MuseZack

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 08:11 PM

Banapis, on Apr 9 2003, 04:47 PM, said:

^ In fairness to the BBC, they may have been reporting news of the earthquake when it was "breaking news" and didn't now it would turn out to be such a minor quake.

Banapis
Not to mention the huge number of Britons of Indian descent who'd be wanting news of their homeland.  

I've heard these charges of BBC antiwar bias before, but honestly, I just don't see it.  They're not as openly jingoistic as the American networks, but a brief look at their website shows photos of jubilant Iraqis and even the use of the word "liberation," interspersed with reports of looting and such.  

Same with the two leading left-leaning British papers, the Guardian and the Independent.

Zack

P.S.  This is a nice story at http://www.freep.com...24_20030409.htm  on an impromptu celebration by Iraqi Americans in Michigan waving American and pre-Saddam Iraqi flags.   In spite of my sadness at all the death and destruction, it's certainly nice to see the happiness among Iraqis that the Hussein regime appears to be collapsing.

Edited by MuseZack, 09 April 2003 - 08:38 PM.

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We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
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#92 Drew

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 08:50 PM

This should cause a few coronaries. ;)

Posted Image
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#93 Rov Judicata

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 08:57 PM

Thanks for the link Zack.

LOL Drew. I *love* that picture.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#94 G1223

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 09:14 PM

Well that warms my heart now todo the job of giving that country a chance at a better life.
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#95 Rov Judicata

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 09:36 PM

Re-watching all the footage (and there's a lot that's been released on the various networks):

My favourite is on MSNBC; it's a child riding the marble head of Saddam, slapping him with his shoe and laughing his liberated butt off. It's absolutely heart-warming.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#96 Rov Judicata

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 09:36 PM

This is odd...

I can't get to arabnews.com, or english.aljazeera.net

:confused:
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#97 MuseZack

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 09:42 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Apr 9 2003, 06:25 PM, said:

Re-watching all the footage (and there's a lot that's been released on the various networks):

My favourite is on MSNBC; it's a child riding the marble head of Saddam, slapping him with his shoe and laughing his liberated butt off. It's absolutely heart-warming.
The shoe imagery comes up again and again.  There's no real equivalent here to how insulting it is in Middle Eastern culture to hit someone with your shoe.  It's even considered rude to sit with the soles of your feet facing someone else.  So whacking the Saddam statue with a shoe is that kid's very own "f--- you" to the tyrant himself.

Z
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#98 Drew

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 09:52 PM

^ Oh, yeah. There were tons of shoes flying through the air at that big statue of the Head Mustache as he was toppling to the ground.

And there's one widely-reported story of an elderly man who was whacking away with his shoe at a picture of Saddam, while tearfully exclaiming that liberation had come to them.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#99 Rov Judicata

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 09:54 PM

Quote

The shoe imagery comes up again and again. There's no real equivalent here to how insulting it is in Middle Eastern culture to hit someone with your shoe. It's even considered rude to sit with the soles of your feet facing someone else. So whacking the Saddam statue with a shoe is that kid's very own "f--- you" to the tyrant himself.

I've heard that.... "There's no place lower to go than under one's shoe" and other sentiments. Can't claim to understand it, but I'm glad to see they're so happy, and I hope the images are powerful in the media.

Quote

And there's one widely-reported story of an elderly man who was whacking away with his shoe at a picture of Saddam, while tearfully exclaiming that liberation had come to them

I haven't seen that. Here's hoping some video turns up....
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#100 Drew

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 10:03 PM

At a press conference within the past hour, Donald Rumsfeld gave a message to the Iraqi citizens of Baghdad telling them that there are journalists all over their city, and that now that they can speak freely, it's the perfect time for them to tell their stories to these journalists. In the same breath he gave a message to the journalists telling them that now was the perfect time to go and listen to the stories of the Iraqi citizens.

Let's hope so.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."



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