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Hunter Wants to Kill Cats!

Animals Cats Open Season Wisconsin

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#21 Delvo

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 06:27 AM

Those who are talking about cats killing birds as a part of the "natural food chain" are not being accurate. Cats, anywhere outside of Egypt and maybe a neighboring country or two, are an introduced and invasive species. Birds are easily physically able to avoid cats because of a natural advantage in modes of transportation, but they don't have the instinct to use that advantage (i.e. fear of cats) because cats are completely unnatural in their environment.

This is a classic case of an introduced invasive species throwing the natural balance out of whack and damaging the native ecosystem. No more, no less.

The relevant question here is whether it's OK to kill members of an introduced, invasive species in order to protect the true local natural balance, regardless of how cute they are.

Edited by Delvo, 09 March 2005 - 06:28 AM.


#22 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 06:53 AM

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Cheile: hello....you cannot rewrite the food chain. wild birds that a person feeds are not YOUR birds. therefore shooting a cat or cats to "defend the birds" is BS. the birds are not yours to defend.
Again I have to say what right does your cat have to wander all over some other personís property where they put up a feeder to feed birds?  I like how people are getting all upset over the right of their cat to trespass on some other personís property gets challenged.

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Cheile: and if someone's cat accidentally gets out--a cat that is NOT an outside cat--is shot?? it could "float" very well.
Iím not proposing that you shoot on sight unless it is being a real menace.  If youíre a cat has gotten out and is beating the neighbors cat to death then they should be able to shoot it to defend their cat.  Now if it is raiding the bird feeder then they should call you up and tell you to kindly remove your cat.  Now if it is the 10th time that month you have visited that cat owner, 6th time you have trapped it, and chased it off a few dozen times I canít really blame the property owner for shooting it. By that point is the cat owner has been warned multiple times, they havenít acted, and you have used up your other legal options and the cat is still around.   Myself I would prefer it if the law was wrote so you could drag the cat owner into court and get the daylights fined out of them.  People need to have personal responsibility for your animal.

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Cheile: show me proof that it's allowed to go shooting cats to protect birds that, again, do not belong to anyone.
Check your local state law.  In the case of my state it is legal if the pet is posing a serious threat to the life of your livestock or pets.  So shooting them from trespassing isnít legal in NY.  That said other states take a sterner approach that makes them pretty much free game once they wander a certain distance off your property and from the buildings.
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#23 waterpanther

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 08:09 AM

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Those who are talking about cats killing birds as a part of the "natural food chain" are not being accurate. Cats, anywhere outside of Egypt and maybe a neighboring country or two, are an introduced and invasive species. Birds are easily physically able to avoid cats because of a natural advantage in modes of transportation, but they don't have the instinct to use that advantage (i.e. fear of cats) because cats are completely unnatural in their environment.

This is a classic case of an introduced invasive species throwing the natural balance out of whack and damaging the native ecosystem. No more, no less.

Untrue on both counts.

There is no part of the world, except the high Arctic, Antarctica and Australia, that does not have its native small cat species.  All these species hunt birds, among other things.  And I gotta tell you that the birds who frequent my feeders know to be afraid of a cat when they see one, even if the cat is inside behind the patio door.

Hmm. . .if you want to talk about introduced populations damaging the ecosystem, though, you'd have to look hard to find one more destructive than the European human.  Cats didn't extinguish the passenger pigeon, extirpate the wolf and the black bear from most of North America, drive the buffalo almost to extinction, deforest what is now the South Texas "brush" country, etc., etc..
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#24 Delvo

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 08:54 AM

The closest thing to the domestic cat here is the bobcat. It's substantially larger and heavier (a disadvantage in hunting something too small and too quick), and hunts larger, ground-dwelling prey, at night when these kinds of birds aren't where it could reach them without flying.

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Food Habits
Bobcats are strictly meat eaters. Stealthy hunters, they stalk their prey, then pounce and (if successful) kill with a bite to the vertebrae of the neck. They hunt rodents, rabbits, small ungulates, large ground birds, and sometimes reptiles. They occasionally eat small domesticated animals and poultry.


#25 QueenTiye

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 09:12 AM

waterpanther, on Mar 9 2005, 08:09 AM, said:

Untrue on both counts.

There is no part of the world, except the high Arctic, Antarctica and Australia, that does not have its native small cat species.  All these species hunt birds, among other things.  And I gotta tell you that the birds who frequent my feeders know to be afraid of a cat when they see one, even if the cat is inside behind the patio door.

Hmm. . .if you want to talk about introduced populations damaging the ecosystem, though, you'd have to look hard to find one more destructive than the European human.  Cats didn't extinguish the passenger pigeon, extirpate the wolf and the black bear from most of North America, drive the buffalo almost to extinction, deforest what is now the South Texas "brush" country, etc., etc..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


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Feral cats are now declared pests under the new Land Protection (Pest and Stock Route Management) Act 2002. Feral cats have taken a heavy toll on Australian native animals, with some species driven to extinction, and others endangered by cat predation. There are up to 14 million feral cats in Australia, which feed off small marsupials, lizards, birds and amphibians. European settlers originally introduced cats into Australia as pets and to control rabbits. However, because they have no predator in the Australian ecosystem, their numbers have surged. Feral cats are larger than domestic cats, and are prolific breeders. They can readily breed with domestic cats if the domestic cats are not controlled and desexed as part of responsible pet ownership.

http://pubs.wri.org/...m?ContentID=519

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Humanity's Contribution to Species Extinctions

Humanity's first significant contribution to the rate of global extinction may have occurred 15,000 to 25,000 years ago, when hunting of large mammals apparently caused or contributed to significant extinctions in North and South America and Australia. These three continents lost 74 to 86 percent of the genera of "megafauna"--mammals greater than 44 kg--at a time.

While the cause of these extinctions remains a matter of controversy, even if humanity is not wholly responsible, there is no doubt that for millennia, people have significantly altered the landscape with untold effects on native flora and fauna. For at least 50,000 years, intentional burning has occurred in the savannas of Africa. At least 5,000 years ago, in Europe, deforestation and the conversion of wildlands to pasture began and there is evidence in North America that for as long as 4,000 years indigenous peoples influenced the structure of forest communities, provided opportunities for weedy species and such herbivores as bison to expand their ranges, and caused at least local species extinctions. In Central America, forest had already been removed from large areas before the Spanish arrived.

The prehistoric colonization of islands by human beings and their commensals substantially affected the diversity of island species. Fossil evidence suggests that 98 species of endemic birds were present in the Hawaiian Islands in A.D. 400 when the islands were first colonized by Polynesians. About 50 of these species became extinct before the first European contact in 1778.

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Many of the European introductions and colonizations, like those of earlier colonizers, significantly influenced native flora and fauna. In Hawaii, the arrival of european explorers added cats, two new species of rats, the barn owl, the small Indian mongoose, and several avian diseases. In the next two centuries, habitat degradation, disease, and predation caused the loss of 17 endemic bird species, reducing the endemic avifauna to 31 percent of the diversity found in A.D. 400; several more species now verge on extinction.

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#26 QueenTiye

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 09:24 AM

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KINDNESS TO ANIMALS

Then, O ye friends of God! Ye must not only have kind and merciful feelings for mankind, but ye should also exercise the utmost kindness towards every living creature. The physical sensibilities and instincts are common to animal and man. Man is, however, negligent of this reality and imagines that sensibility is  374  peculiar to mankind, therefore he practices cruelty to the animal. In reality what difference is there in physical sensations! Sensibility is the same whether you harm man or animal: there is no difference. Nay, rather, cruelty to the animal is more painful because man has a tongue and he sighs, complains and groans when he receives an injury and complains to the government and the government protects him from cruelty; but the poor animal cannot speak, it can neither show its suffering nor is it able to appeal to the government. If it is harmed a thousand times by man it is not able to defend itself in words nor can it seek justice or retaliate. Therefore one must be very considerate towards animals and show greater kindness to them than to man. Educate the children in their infancy in such a way that they may become exceedingly kind and merciful to the animals. If an animal is sick they should endeavor to cure it; if it is hungry, they should feed it; if it is thirsty, they should satisfy its thirst; if it is tired, they should give it rest.

Man is generally sinful and the animal is innocent; unquestionably one must be more kind and merciful to the innocent. The harmful animals, such as the bloodthirsty wolf, the poisonous snake and other injurious animals are excepted, because mercy towards these is cruelty to man, and other animals. For instance, if you show kindness to a wolf this becomes a tyranny to the sheep, for it may destroy an entire flock of sheep. If you give the opportunity to a mad dog it may be the cause of the destruction of a thousand animals and men. Therefore, sympathy to the ferocious animal is cruelty to the peaceful animal, so they should be done away with. To the blessed animals, however, the utmost kindness should be exercised: the more the better it will be.

This sympathy and kindness is one of the fundamental principles of the divine kingdom. Ye should pay great attention to this question.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i Writings)

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#27 QueenTiye

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 09:27 AM

I'm posting those quotes from my own scriptures, since they are relevant to the subject.  Feral cats need a predator, and the only one that qualifies is us.  I think this law has to be written to protect domestic pets, to hold domestic cat owners accountable for the actions of their pets, within reason (for instance, persons with lost cats should notify the surrounding community), and feral cats encroaching on private property should be hunted.

It just pains me to have to say that.

HM07

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#28 Godeskian

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 09:37 AM

in answer to one of Cheile's concerns. I don't believe the intent of this change in law is to allow every home-owner to let fly with the ammo the very first time a pair of whiskers peeks through the fence, but to allow a homeowner to protect his property, and the going ons of his property against animals that are pests.

And make no mistake, a domestic pet can be a pest if the owner refuses to take responsibility for it.

I've never actually met a feral cat, but I had the very distinctly unpleaseant experience of having been trailed for around 200 meters or so by a pack of 4 or 5 feral dogs while in the foothills near Thessaloniki in Greece many years ago.

After I hopped off the bus and was walking to my host families place, they started following me, and growling pretty much anytime i stopped walking.

I've never been a dog person, but this is the very first time I was genuinly afraid of dogs, and i was more than pleased that I got where I was going without being attacked by them. Personally, I would have danced a jig if every single one of them was hunted down.

#29 Nikcara

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 10:56 AM

There are actually a lot of animals, birds in particular, that have have run to or very close to extinction by cats.  The New Zealand ground parrot (as well as a plethora of other birds on that island) were killed off mainly due to cats, both domestic and feral.  It's a problem across Australia, Hawaii, and many other island.  Even places like England have species on the verge of exitinction that cats might very well be the last factor that wipes them out.  Here in America there are other species being slaughtered by cats.  And all that's not including their toll on small mammals.

So, what if this hunter has managed to attract some threatened or endagered species of bird into his backyard with food?  If the cats are killing those birds as well should it still just be written off as "oh well, that's instinct"?  If we're going to start applying those standards to cats, shouldn't we apply those standards to everything?  So if a lion in the outback eats a villager, just say 'well, sucks to be you...' or the same for the man who was recently mauled by a pair of chimpanzees (and anyone who thinks chimps are cute and harmless and would never do something like that in the wild need to check up on their facts)?  Or, as had been said before, dogs that kill their neighbor's cats?

Now, I do love my cats, but I also love my local wildlife.  Allowing natural ecosystems to get thrown all out of whack just because my little kitty is too cute for me to possibly be willing to put any limitations on her/him is simply a bad way of going about being a pet owner.
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#30 Hebea

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 11:06 AM

<rant---pet peeve...LOL>
I love cats...I've had many and rescued many. Having said that I would be extremely happy if my neighbor was made to be legally responsible for the actions of her cat. I had to throw out lovely tomatoes because of her cats habit of using my veg garden for a litter box and thats just part of the damage done. When confronted...nicely...the lady just laughed and went on about cats having to roam free. BS! Cats are domesticated animals...they do NOT have to roam free. I never let my cats out...I have taken in feral cats and didn't let them out either.

If you own a cat stop letting it go out into your neighborhood to annoy your neighbors! And no it doesn't just stay in your yard and yes it is in danger from a varity of things...not just people with guns...or sling shots. ;)

Don't tell me you love your cat if you open that door and let it out...if you love your cat keep it safe and keep it the heck out of my yard!!

If you can't manage that...if its too much trouble for you to train your cat...then yes...I think you should have to pay for a license and be subject to leash laws and be financially responsible for ANY damage your cat does.
<done>

#31 Nonny

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 11:10 AM

CJ AEGIS, on Mar 8 2005, 09:50 PM, said:

I ask again what right do you have to let your cat wander on land that doesnít belong to you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wouldn't it be cool if all we needed to keep insect pests out of the houses that belong to us was legislation?  :oh:  

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#32 Consubstantial

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 12:14 PM

Cheile, on Mar 9 2005, 06:05 AM, said:

in addition--before they THINK about passing this law, they need to look into this moron's background.  he's likely a serial killer in disguise.  since nearly all serial killers start by killing animals.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Wow.  Talk about your totally unfounded accusations.  For the record, an attack the man (ad hominem) argument is logically fallacious even when the attack is accurate.  But in this case, the attack is truly baseless which renders it even less effective.  Simply making this claim makes you appear incapable of rational discussion, as does your refusal to acknowledge the salient points of others.  

Most of the folks in this thread have agreed that they wouldn't want to see pets harmed by a law that allows the hunting of ferals.  We are all waiting to see if you have the maturity to agree that pet owners bear the responsibility for controlling their pets.  Do you agree that pet owners do not have the right to let their pets roam loose on other people's property?  Or are you making excuses for such pet owners because you don't properly supervise your own pets?

I don't think any of us would want to see a pet killed because of such a law; but the facts are that pets who escape their homes, boundaries or leashes (even by accident) are subject to the same penalties as unowned ferals.  Ferals often carry and spread disease.  These diseases may infect other animals as well as humans.  these health and safety issues are real and they are a problem.  What's more, they became a problem largely as a result of irresponsible pet owners.
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#33 Bad Wolf

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 12:25 PM

Most states have no fault liability for dog owners (the dog bite rule).  The owner is automatically liable for injury inflicted by its dog on another.  But see with cats it's different.  First of all, domestic cats don't generally go around biting and attacking people.  They're generally much smaller than dogs.  Unlike dogs, leashing cats to confine them would truly be contrary to what we know of their nature and would (imo of course) be unnecessarily cruel.

If a cat wanders onto someone's property and does no harm then there's no harm.  

Anyways I just think that regulating cats is a very slippery slope.

Of course, me being the paranoid possession of cats that I am, my cats are always INDOORS only so the issue just never comes up.   :ninja:
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#34 QueenTiye

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 12:54 PM

Lil - here's the issue as I see it:

Indoor cats get out, and gets lost.  What does a responsible owner do? Tells their neighbors.  ESPECIALLY if the neighbors are bird watchers...:o  A simple posting of pictures on trees and posts constitutes reasonable notification to neighbors that a cat that is normally an indoor cat might be roaming.  I'd hold a HUNTER accountable for harm to a cat, if the neighbor took reasonable precautions to notify the community that the cat was loose.

Outdoor cats roam.  Neighbors ought to have the right to press for damages caused by a roaming cat.  Hebea should have reasonable recourse against her neighbor.  Cats climb fences, so adequate fencing isn't going to solve the problem.  (I'm actually curious as to what WOULD solve the problem, rather than the pet owner just giving up and paying Hebea rent! :o)

Feral cats:  Should only be hunted if they are on private property.

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#35 Zwolf

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 01:05 PM

It's pretty hard to keep an outdoor cat controlled.   I can vouch, because I've been through three black cats in the past six months.   The first, He Who Cannot Be Named, just disappeared one day.  He wasn't very prone to wandering off, so I don't know what happened to him.  I'm thinking a hawk may have gotten him or something.  The second, Shadow, got run over in the highway.  I hadn't even known he was wandering that far until I came home from work one day and saw my lil' buddy splattered all over. :(  So the third, Thirteen, is turning out to be a house cat.  I didn't want a house cat, because part of the reason for getting one was rodent control.  I live way out in the country, and when I got He Who Cannot Be Named, he was a prodigious rat-killer... it was amazing.  But, after losing two in quick succession, I can't really stand to gamble with 'em anymore, so Thirteen stays inside and gets spoiled rotten.

I'd hate for any of my cats to mess with anyone's bird feeder or their garden or anything, but if they shot them over that, I'm afraid we'd have a little violence between us.   Shooting feral cats is one thing, but gunning down people's pets... nope.  Turn a hose on them or something if you must, but killing pets isn't admissible.

Cheers,

Zwolf
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#36 Anastashia

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 01:07 PM

I set myself down on the side of those who say domesticated cats should be kept indoors. Those that wander around here only serve to get Pegan all upset and barking and that drives me nuts too.
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#37 Rhea

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 01:09 PM

Consubstantial, on Mar 8 2005, 03:49 PM, said:

Nope.  Not a clear cut issue.  Feral cats are a huge problem in some areas.  (as are feral dogs)

Of course, the difficulty in determining whether any cat is a pet that has temporarily escaped its owner's custody or an unowned feral remains a problem.  Folks shouldn't use such laws as an excuse to shoot the neighbor's pet cat; but they should be able to protect their property and themselves from a non-native cat species that may threaten their health or the health of their own pets.
Moreover, such non-native interlopers can cause severe harm to the natural ecosystem, particularly when they are permitted to multiply freely.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Agreed. That's what we have local SPCA's for, though, is to round up free-roaming cats and figure out whether they have owners. Feral cats are an enormous problem. Of course, I live in California, and in my county we have a retired lady who makes a career out of rounding up feral cats, paying personally for their shots and neutering, and then seeing that they go to good homes.  :cool:  :cool:

Some of them have to be put down because they can't be socialized, but on the whole this seems a better solution to me than shooting them.
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#38 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 01:12 PM

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Lil: First of all, domestic cats don't generally go around biting and attacking people.
Iíve dealt with some pretty nasty cats over the years so there is an exception to that rule.  Even without attacking cats can cause damage to other peopleís property by attacking their properly regulated and controlled animals.  All you need is for your own cat that is contained on your property to be attacked by another cat wandering through.  For that matter cats dig up gardens using them as litter boxes, they hunt animals that you may be attracting to your land, and in general can be a nuisance.  Then you have cases with farms or other small livestock that cats will go after.  Once a cat is going after livestock, chickens and etc, the solution is to shoot them in my book.  Livestock killers are repeat offenders.

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Lil: Unlike dogs, leashing cats to confine them would truly be contrary to what we know of their nature and would (imo of course) be unnecessarily cruel.
I disagree with the comment that cats are meant to be free roaming creatures that it is so cruel to contain. If you want a free roaming creature that is totally out of place in the human environment then look at wolves.  The ancestors of dogs roamed just as free as wild cats yet we contain them.  The reality is for many cat owners who let their cats wander is they just donít want to take the personal responsibility of controlling their pet.  

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Zwolf: It's pretty hard to keep an outdoor cat controlled.
A few $150 to $300 underground or wireless fence systems will keep a cat contained.  Most cats like dogs donít like a good shock when they try to cross the barrier.  The cat will learn where the barrier is and stay back from it.

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Rhea: That's what we have local SPCA's for, though, is to round up free-roaming cats and figure out whether they have owners. Feral cats are an enormous problem.
The SPCAs are in many areas overwhelmed by the problem.

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 09 March 2005 - 01:15 PM.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
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#39 Zwolf

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 02:24 PM

Quote

A few $150 to $300 underground or wireless fence systems will keep a cat contained. Most cats like dogs donít like a good shock when they try to cross the barrier. The cat will learn where the barrier is and stay back from it.

******** That is a possibility.  I knew they made those for dogs, but I wasn't aware they worked for cats.  I may have to look into that... although I'd probably need a whooooole lot of wire if I still wanted an effective rodent-control cat.  It's a pretty big yard.  

Thanks for the tip. :)

Cheers,

Zwolf
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I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
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I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
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#40 Consubstantial

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 02:52 PM

Zwolf666, on Mar 9 2005, 06:05 PM, said:

It's pretty hard to keep an outdoor cat controlled.   I can vouch, because I've been through three black cats in the past six months.   The first, He Who Cannot Be Named, just disappeared one day.  He wasn't very prone to wandering off, so I don't know what happened to him.  I'm thinking a hawk may have gotten him or something.  Cheers,

Zwolf

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


So what you are telling us is that you may be one of the contributers to the feral cat problem.  You can no longer account for the whereabouts of your cat, which you allowed to run loose.  

While I am sorry for the loss of your pets, I am glad that you have learned to be a more responsible pet owner as a result.
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