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Hunter Wants to Kill Cats!

Animals Cats Open Season Wisconsin

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#41 Zwolf

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 03:40 PM

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So what you are telling us is that you may be one of the contributers to the feral cat problem. You can no longer account for the whereabouts of your cat, which you allowed to run loose.

******** Well, possibly by proxy... but He Who Cannot Be Named showed up at my house as a stray, and I gave him a home.  I really doubt that he ran off anywhere, because he was pretty much of a homebody.  I was going to get him neutered, but he disappeared before that could happen.  Shadow also started out a s a stray, but we got him from someone else.  He got neutered and had his shots (and got a really horrible abcess fixed) a month or so before he got run over.  So, I wouldn't say I was irresponsible with 'em, really - they were just supposed to be yard cats.  We live out in the country, so it's common to let dogs or cats run free.  They'll usually stick around one place because they're getting fed there.  If they're neutered, they lose even more tendency to roam, so it can be done responsibly.  But, alas, it doesn't always work out for the best... so, I've ended up with a housecat 'cuz I don't want to lose another one.  Too bad that it gives the rodents a break, though...

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#42 Kosh

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 04:44 PM

Cheile, on Mar 9 2005, 02:59 AM, said:

and what about a cat who accidentally gets out?  God forbid it gets disoriented and ends up in the wrong yard....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>





In my experience, courts don't give a darn about pets. If your dog or cat had real monitary value, like a akc registered dog, or whatever exsists for cats. If it's a pet and not registered, there isn't anything a court can really do.
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#43 waterpanther

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 08:10 PM

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The closest thing to the domestic cat here is the bobcat.

Again, untrue.  Go look up jaguarundi.  Also, while you're at it, margay and ocelot.

A small bobcat is no bigger than a large domestic cat.  They can and do climb trees, thank you very much, and have no need to fly to reach roosting or nesting birds.  

Birds are preyed upon by any number of species:  cats of all kinds, foxes, coyotes, wolves, raccoons, opossums, weasels and other mustelids of all sorts, snakes and other birds. With relatively few exceptions, they're prey species, not predators.  

Now, I wonder what this bozo's going to do when a Cooper's hawk or merlin shows up in his yard and settles in to dine.  (If you have feeders, you will also attract hawks and owls, who will then view your yard as the local Stop 'N Shop.)
If he shoots one of those, he's in all kinds of trouble with the law.
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#44 eloisel

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 08:42 PM

Invasive species .... hmmm ....
another reason to use an instrument designed to kill ... hmmmm
slippery slopes .... hmmmmm

Sorry, neighbor, that I shot you in the head.  I was aiming at a roaming cat.

#45 Delvo

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 09:44 PM

waterpanther, on Mar 9 2005, 08:10 PM, said:

Again, untrue.  Go look up jaguarundi.  Also, while you're at it, margay and ocelot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK... Jaguarundi, Margay, Ocelot.

You just named three feline species with little or no presence in the USA, right along the Mexican border or not at all. (The story was from Wisconsin.) Two of them are bigger and heavier than domesitc cats and eat equivalently larger prey; while the lists do include generic references to birds, there's a clear emphasis on larger, flightless animals like monkeys, rabbits, and peccaries, and the only kind of bird specified as prey of theirs is "junglefowl", which are like chickens or turkeys, not the kind of birds we're talking about. The only one of the same kind of size and weight as domestic cats and thus a similar prey size is also the one that's absent from the USA, being exclusively tropical and neotropical, and has a more varied diet (even with certain plant parts and eggs among the top few items) with much less of an emphasis on the birds than domestic cats.

Quote

<Bobcats> can and do climb trees, thank you very much, and have no need to fly to reach roosting or nesting birds.
Spiffy idea about how they maybe could get small flying birds (if they even wanted to despite the size issue), but the fact that they don't makes it irrelevant.

Are you seriously claiming that domestic cats are not an introduced and invasive species? The damage they do to the ecosystems they end up in is quite well known and widely acknowledged in multiple countries on multiple continents. What makes them any different from the North American gray squirrel in Europe, the Chinese snakehead fish in some mid-Atlantic states or the Nile perch in the Great Lakes, other than possibly being even more damaging?

Edited by Delvo, 09 March 2005 - 11:21 PM.


#46 Cheile

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 10:04 PM

i was gonna say the jaguarundi and ocelot are not native to this country but Delvo beat me to it.

again i stand with my reasoning.  shelters/SPCA/animal control exist for a REASON.  that reason is it's their responsibility to monitor strays.  which means there's no excuse for a law like this to be passed.

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#47 waterpanther

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 10:46 PM

Of course domestic cats are an introduced species in the Americas.  So are horses, sheep, pigs, starlings. rock doves (pigeons), house sparrows--which have probably done far more damage to native bird species through habitat/food competition than cats have--chickens, domestic ducks and geese.  More habitat destruction, and species extirpation with it, has probably occurred as a result of clearing of farm land and timber cutting than any species competiton.

I followed your links, Delvo, and all three feline species overlap domestic cats in weight and length, though the overlap for ocelots and domestic cats is at the low end of the former and the high end of the latter.  Your sources also clearly state that margays and jaguarundis eat birds, as do ocelots.  And I'm afraid all three species are in fact native to what is now the United States, as are jaguars.  I've seen two of these cats in my own area of South Texas, and I've been involved in an ongoing effort to preserve the migratory corridors of ocelots through the cane that lines the Rio Grande.  

Quote

Spiffy idea about how they maybe could get small flying birds (if they even wanted to despite the size issue), but the fact that they don't makes it irrelevant.

A question, Delvo, in all sincerity--how much wildlife study/observation have you ever done?  Have you ever seen a bobcat in the wild?  Have you ever watched a mother bobcat bring up her kittens--and bring them birds to eat?  Because if you have, we can compare notes, and I just might start to take your assertions seriously.
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#48 Delvo

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 11:10 PM

I didn't say the felines you mentioned "don't eat birds". You're just trying to misrepresent what I really said by absolutizing it, to help you dodge the real point, which is the harm done to the populations of the prey of domestic cats. And the true but irrelevant stuff about other species that have also been harmful in other ways, and the attempt to pull authority when shown facts you don't like but have a hard time circumnavigating (which requires that you exaggerate certain species' prevalence in this country and dietary focus and population impact on the birds that domestic cats threaten), is just another round of dodges. For whatever reason, you clearly just don't WANT to admit that wild domestic cats are a problem and not a natural part of the food chain as some in the thread have asserted.

#49 waterpanther

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 11:45 PM

No--I simply note that domestic cats do not represent the only predation pressure on birds, and not the most significant one.  

Nor did I "exaggerate the prevalence" of other cat species; the ones I named are in fact native to the U. S.   If you take issue with that statement, provide evidence in your favor.

Oh, and kindly answer the question you're dodging:

A question, Delvo, in all sincerity--how much wildlife study/observation have you ever done? Have you ever seen a bobcat in the wild? Have you ever watched a mother bobcat bring up her kittens--and bring them birds to eat? Because if you have, we can compare notes, and I just might start to take your assertions seriously.
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#50 Nonny

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 09:29 AM

Delvo, on Mar 9 2005, 08:10 PM, said:

wild domestic cats

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:blink:
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#51 Delvo

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 09:35 AM

:D I figured somebody would point that out, but I'm stuck with no name for the species other than "domestic cats" to distinguish them from other feline species that some people are in the weird habit of calling "cats" even though they're other species. And when members of the "domestic cat" species go wild, they're still members of the same species, even if they're not living in the domestic condition anymore... :upside:

#52 Consubstantial

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 02:36 PM

waterpanther, on Mar 10 2005, 04:45 AM, said:

No--I simply note that domestic cats do not represent the only predation pressure on birds, and not the most significant one. 

Nor did I "exaggerate the prevalence" of other cat species; the ones I named are in fact native to the U. S.   If you take issue with that statement, provide evidence in your favor.

Oh, and kindly answer the question you're dodging:

A question, Delvo, in all sincerity--how much wildlife study/observation have you ever done? Have you ever seen a bobcat in the wild? Have you ever watched a mother bobcat bring up her kittens--and bring them birds to eat? Because if you have, we can compare notes, and I just might start to take your assertions seriously.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Your implication that only folks who have watched a mother bobcat bring up her kittens can make an intelligent point on this issue is a fallacious appeal to authority.  

To show you the impact of your words on others let me direct them back at you.  Make your claims without logical fallacies "and I just might start to take your assertions seriously."
From the start, our terms jump to conclusions--Kenneth Burke

#53 eloisel

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 08:09 PM

Nonny, on Mar 10 2005, 02:29 PM, said:

Delvo, on Mar 9 2005, 08:10 PM, said:

wild domestic cats

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:blink:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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#54 offworlder

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 09:07 PM

there is a problem with rising feral or abandoned cats, I believe that.
And the man has the right to protect those which (people, animals) are on his private property.

so: he could get a pet, since he doesn't like cats how 'bout a little vulnerable doggie like a sh*tzu - then when the cats come over, he could actually shoot one; have animal control come over to pick it up; and defend his claim, the 'wild' cat, on his own property, was a danger to his lil doggie. Of course if he has young children, he wouldn't need the doggie for the claim: but hey, a lil sh*tzu can be nice for a Fam with ankle biters

He would need no license, but then he also could not do this off his own property: but then there is no real reason for him to do this off his own property.

Hey, I used to be a cat owner and loved her dearly, but this wild problem is a problem, and there is no 'owner' for any court issues.
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#55 waterpanther

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 09:48 PM

Quote

Your implication that only folks who have watched a mother bobcat bring up her kittens can make an intelligent point on this issue is a fallacious appeal to authority.

That's not my implication; that's your inference, and a fallacious one at that.

But I do maintain that it's considerably superior to clicking on Google.

Quote

To show you the impact of your words on others let me direct them back at you. Make your claims without logical fallacies "and I just might start to take your assertions seriously."

Frankly, my dear . . ..  You do know how this quote ends?
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#56 Consubstantial

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 06:58 PM

waterpanther, on Mar 11 2005, 02:48 AM, said:

Quote

Your implication that only folks who have watched a mother bobcat bring up her kittens can make an intelligent point on this issue is a fallacious appeal to authority.

That's not my implication; that's your inference, and a fallacious one at that.

But I do maintain that it's considerably superior to clicking on Google.

Quote

To show you the impact of your words on others let me direct them back at you. Make your claims without logical fallacies "and I just might start to take your assertions seriously."

Frankly, my dear . . ..  You do know how this quote ends?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


in·fer·ence    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (nfr-ns)
n.

The act or process of deriving logical conclusions from premises known or assumed to be true.
The act of reasoning from factual knowledge or evidence.

Something inferred.
Usage Problem. A hint or suggestion: The editorial contained an inference of foul play in the awarding of the contract. See Usage Note at infer.


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Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Main Entry: in·fer·ence
Pronunciation: 'in-f&-r&ns
Function: noun
1 : the act or process of inferring; specifically : the act of passing from one proposition, statement, or judgment considered as true to another whose truth is believed to follow logically from that of the former
2 : something inferred; especially : a proposition arrived at by inference —see also permissive presumption at PRESUMPTION
3 : the premises and conclusions of a process of inferring


Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
im·pli·ca·tion    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (mpl-kshn)
n.
The act of implicating or the condition of being implicated.
The act of implying or the condition of being implied.
Something that is implied, especially:
An indirect indication; a suggestion.
An implied meaning; implicit significance.
An inference. See Usage Note at infer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
impli·cative adj.
impli·cative·ly adv.

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Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


Main Entry: im·pli·ca·tion
Pronunciation: "im-pl&-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : the act of implicating : the state of being implicated
2 : the act of implying : the state of being implied
3 : something implied


Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


implication

n 1: something that is inferred (deduced or entailed or implied); "his resignation had political implications" [syn: deduction, entailment] 2: a meaning that is not expressly stated but can be inferred; "the significance of his remark became clear only later"; "the expectation was spread both by word and by implication" [syn: significance, import] 3: an accusation that brings into intimate and usually incriminating connection 4: a logical relation between propositions p and q of the form `if p then q'; if p is true then q cannot be false [syn: logical implication, conditional relation] 5: a relation implicated by virtue of involvement or close connection (especially an incriminating involvement); "he was suspected of implication in several robberies"

_________
http://www.nizkor.or...ures/fallacies/
_________
I made no inference; I did not accept your propositions as true.  As my third example of definitions of implication demonstrates, implication and inference do have related definitions, so I understand your confusion.  

Like it or not, all texts have implications, yours included.  I simply pointed one of them out.  

The fact that you respond to other posters with hostility and apparently believe that makes you an effective conversationalist amuses me immensely.  

Still, perhaps the above definitions and the site on logical fallacies will help keep you from making me laugh so hard in the future.
From the start, our terms jump to conclusions--Kenneth Burke

#57 eloisel

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 07:37 PM

Skinny & Scrawny

So, this hunter is concerned about WILD cats harming the WILD birds that he attracts to his property.  Me thinks Mr. Hunter man has an ulterior motive for wanting to make it legal for persons with a "small game license" to kill cats.  Surprised he does not include squirrels and racoons in his quest to protect the WILD birds he deliberately attracts to his property.  Perhaps it is already legal for him to shoot them.

#58 G1223

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 07:47 PM

Those are already covered under the laws dealing with varmints.

Edited by G1223, 11 March 2005 - 07:52 PM.

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