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Support Military Action vs China for Taiwan?

Bush Forign Policy China Taiwan Military Action

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74 replies to this topic

Poll: See Below: (38 member(s) have cast votes)

See Below:

  1. 1 (8 votes [21.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.05%

  2. 2 (3 votes [7.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.89%

  3. 3 (4 votes [10.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.53%

  4. 4 (1 votes [2.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.63%

  5. 5 (2 votes [5.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.26%

  6. 6 (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  7. 7 (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  8. 8 (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  9. 9 (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  10. 10 (1 votes [2.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.63%

  11. 11 (2 votes [5.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.26%

  12. 12 (5 votes [13.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.16%

  13. 13 (1 votes [2.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.63%

  14. 14 (2 votes [5.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.26%

  15. 15 (3 votes [7.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.89%

  16. 16 (6 votes [15.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.79%

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#21 G1223

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 04:18 AM

Why?  We could just sit back and wait for the Chinese to claim our west coast due to a pre combian claim. If you are not going stand up for the first guy they are going to use force on why the last?

Yes a very intellegent country. They suppress any faith they can get away with.  Intellegent enough kill anyone who voices a view other than the STATE accepted one. Intellegent enough to take by force of arms a country that had not been a part of China for a couple of centuries. But Hey it's Tibet there fore it's acceptable behavior.
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#22 Rov Judicata

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 08:58 AM

Defaulting on our debt isn't really an option. We have to pay our bills; without our good credit name, we're truly screwed.

In any case, yeah, the main way we can strengthen our position against China is simply to get out of debt. That should mean tax hikes and cuts for programs that are worthless (NEA, CPB, pork, etc., etc.). There's no issue more important to our long-term national security than getting out of debt.

[And I voted for 14. However, I have every confidence in Taiwan's ability to defend herself.]
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#23 Mr.Calgary

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 11:21 AM

If democracies (and their citizens) won't help defend another democracy........ :angry:
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#24 Julianus

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 12:02 PM

Based on the idea that China does not have a significant ability to launch a campaign that would require the ability to support a significant amphibious assault, I would support a defensive use of U.S. naval and air forces to defeat any invasion of Taiwan.  Personally, I think the Chinese leadership is trying to use this threat only as a signal, though their signals have been mixed recently with the recent changes they have made in loosening air travel rules between Taiwan and the mainland.

#25 Kosh

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 05:06 PM

CJ AEGIS, on Mar 14 2005, 06:21 PM, said:

Myself I support Option 15. 

The US has made it known for years that we would support Taiwan against agression from the mainland.  Myself I think Taiwan has every right to declare their autonomy from China whenever they decide to do so.  China created the current situation of the US supporting Taiwan in such a steadfast manner via their intervention in the Korean War and behavior from the seperation of Taiwan to the present.    Taiwan has earned the right to choosr their own path and we should support that.

If that means a military showdown with China then so be it.  If it comes down to nuclear war and we back down then China will know we don't have the guts to keep going when push comes to shove.  In addition with the SM-3 plus NMD we could hodgepodge together a ballistic missile defense for the United States and our territories.  In terms of deploying land forces I would only support deploying them into Taiwan.  A land incursion into China would be a diaster of the highest order.  That said using naval and land based air to strike at China's industry and military would be a must.

My own opinion is that if we fought such a war and drove back China then we had better following it make sure that China can't pose a similar threat once again.  For that reason I would support a continuation of the naval blockade and sanctions until China gives into that pressure.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



If the conflict went Nuclear, no one would win, and millions would die. I don't think there is any winng a war with China.
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#26 Robert Hewitt Wolfe

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 05:27 PM

I voted 3, sanctions and naval blockade.  If we hadn't already massively overdeployed our military, I might have voted differently.

That being said, I'm not convinced any kind of military conflict with China would be a particularly bright idea.

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#27 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 05:31 PM

^The Army and Marines are overdeployed.  The Air Force and the Navy are still pretty solid.

Kosh, on Mar 15 2005, 05:06 PM, said:

If the conflict went Nuclear, no one would win, and millions would die. I don't think there is any winng a war with China.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

China has enough nuclear weapons to badly hurt the United States and destroy several major cities.  That assumes the missiles could make it through the NMD or a thrown together SM-3 defense system. Meanwhile the US has enough nuclear weapons to destroy China.  It isn't a question of winning it is a question of being left standing.  That said the Russians would probably have a large heart attack in the process.

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 15 March 2005 - 05:36 PM.

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#28 G1223

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 05:36 PM

That or  take out their biggest  rival for those far eastern materials in Siberia. And it ain't us.
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#29 Lin731

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 06:08 PM

The sad fact of the matter is that we don't have the finances or troop strength to deal with China directly. Another sad (but I beleive inevitable) fact is that we WILL have to deal with China SOON. They have amped up their military spending in huge ways and are slated to have a larger navy that the US by decases end
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#30 Rhea

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 07:09 PM

The whole Taiwan thing is pretty ridiculous when you consider that they've been a separate country (in the minds of everyone but the mainland Chinese, apparently) since World War II. The Chinese seem to me to wasting an enormous amount of time over this matter, and I just don't understand why now, after all these years, they've decided to make a stand against Taiwan.
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#31 mjtian

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 10:00 PM

"Why? We could just sit back and wait for the Chinese to claim our west coast due to a pre combian claim. If you are not going stand up for the first guy they are going to use force on why the last?

Yes a very intellegent country. They suppress any faith they can get away with. Intellegent enough kill anyone who voices a view other than the STATE accepted one. Intellegent enough to take by force of arms a country that had not been a part of China for a couple of centuries. But Hey it's Tibet there fore it's acceptable behavior."

I voted #1
As someone that was born and raised in Communist China and spent the last 17 years in the United States I had the good fortunes to see both sides of the argument.  Today I have families in BOTH Mainland China and Taiwan and I wish that the two governments will never have to fire a single bullet.    

I disagree with the Ring Bearer for obvious reasons.  I know China and Taiwan and as a Chinese American that have families in both States, I can relate to the difficulties and struggles in this issue.

1)  There is no reason for China to attack the U.S.  They do not have the military capabilities to lauch an attack on the United States nor are they foolish enough to do so.  The United States is the only Country that is policing the entire world NOT China.  China did not just spent Billions of dollars to develop herself, to build the world's tallest building, to attrack foreign investors and all of sudden turn around and attack its customers.  It just makes no sense.

2)  Taiwan has not been an independent State for hundreds of years.  The year was 1949, the Chinese Nationlist lost the Civil War in China to the Communist Regime and escaped off the Eastern coast of China to Taiwan.  The Nationalist Party brought their remaining Army and captured the Island and occupy it as its base and over powered the original occupiers of the Island that were of Chinese decent.  

My family was an example of the tregedy of a Civil War, part of my family was able to escape China before ShangHai fell to the Communist and part of them were left behind.  People have to realize that the people that live in Taiwan are of the same decent as those living in the Mainland.  Yes, differences exist as Taiwan is much wealthier than its counterparts in the Mainland.  But the fact is that Taiwan was a part of China and it should remain as a part of China.  

I've visited China twice since 2002 and I also visited Hong Kong and Macau in 2003, both were European Colonies that were returned to China recently.  The differences between the two former British and Portugese Colonies and Mainland China was obvious.  The economy and the living standards show obvious gaps.  Most striking was that the Law was definitely different.  What was banned in Mainland was allowed in Hong Kong.  I saw numerous protests for the Tibetan Monks, casino gambling was legal in Macau.  With the World's fastest growing GDP, China is closing its gap with the Western World at amazing speeds.  Walking through down town ShangHai in 2002 reminded me of NYC.

Does China have flaws?  Of course.  They have Human Rights issues that need to be resolved.  Their one Child policy, while makes economic sense, it is very oppressive.  But we have to realize that our democratic system has flaws as well.  While it may work in the United States it does not translate into success in other countries all the time.  Not to mention that China has a population that is 5 times as ours and with about 60-70% as much usable land as the United States as Western China is mostly an huge Desert.  

How would we feel if the State of Hawaii decide that it need to establish itself as a separate Nation from the U.S?  Furthermore, China decide to sent its war ships to protect Hawaii from an U.S. invasion?  

I believe we should stay clear of the dispute between China and Taiwan and I hope everyday for a peaceful return of Taiwan so the Chinese people can finally unite and live peacefully among one another.
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#32 G1223

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 11:39 PM

Meaning you favor leaving Taiwan to be forced back into China by force of arms and we should do nothing?
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#33 Nonny

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 10:41 AM

mjtian, on Mar 15 2005, 07:00 PM, said:

How would we feel if the State of Hawaii decide that it need to establish itself as a separate Nation from the U.S?  Furthermore, China decide to sent its war ships to protect Hawaii from an U.S. invasion? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What invasion?  We're already there, in strength, with ships and planes and bases and personnel and war memorials (remember WWII?  Pearl Harbor?) and all kindsa good stuff!  The Chinese would look very silly indeed if they were to attempt such a thing.  

mjtian, on Mar 15 2005, 07:00 PM, said:

I believe we should stay clear of the dispute between China and Taiwan and I hope everyday for a peaceful return of Taiwan so the Chinese people can finally unite and live peacefully among one another.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This smacks of the chilling words of nuns and priests, repeated often throughout my childhood: There will be peace on earth, once eeeeeeeeeverybody is Catholic.   :o  :o  :o  Like unity guarantees peace.  :sarcasm:  :sarcasm:  :sarcasm:

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#34 mjtian

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 04:55 PM

Nonny, on Mar 16 2005, 10:41 AM, said:

mjtian, on Mar 15 2005, 07:00 PM, said:

How would we feel if the State of Hawaii decide that it need to establish itself as a separate Nation from the U.S? Furthermore, China decide to sent its war ships to protect Hawaii from an U.S. invasion?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What invasion?  We're already there, in strength, with ships and planes and bases and personnel and war memorials (remember WWII?  Pearl Harbor?) and all kindsa good stuff!  The Chinese would look very silly indeed if they were to attempt such a thing.  

mjtian, on Mar 15 2005, 07:00 PM, said:

I believe we should stay clear of the dispute between China and Taiwan and I hope everyday for a peaceful return of Taiwan so the Chinese people can finally unite and live peacefully among one another.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This smacks of the chilling words of nuns and priests, repeated often throughout my childhood: There will be peace on earth, once eeeeeeeeeverybody is Catholic.   :o  :o  :o  Like unity guarantees peace.  :sarcasm:  :sarcasm:  :sarcasm:

Nonny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I never said the China would invade Hawaii, this was an example to show that we need to stop sticking our nose in other peoples' business.  We have our troops all over the world and continues to police the world as if we own it?  Instead, we need to focus more on the domestic issues such as unemployement, national debt, social security instead of spending Billions of dollars defending other countries!!!

How is peace sarcasm?  Did anyone die when Hong Kong was handed back to China?  Macau?  I don't think so.  Just because China is a communist country that does not mean that they are totally irrational.  If China is so evil and dangerous why would Intel, GM, JDSU, and hundreds of top U.S. corporation invest Billions of dollars in China?  C'mon, think before you speak PLEASE!
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#35 tennyson

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 05:00 PM

The see the chance for relatively short-term profit without considering what it means for them in the long-term. Just look at how huge piles of American industry have been moved to other countries by corporations looking to make products cheaper since the 1980s without considering the effect that would have on the US manufacturing base. Corpations do not look after nation interests, they look after thier own short term profit margin.
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#36 G1223

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 05:01 PM

Corporations invest where they can make money. Standard Oil made investments in Germany before the US's involvement in WWII.  Toshiba sold the technology ,to the soviets, that was used in making our propellars for our submarines.

But corporations are not organizations that are drawn to issues of Good and Evil simply profit.
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#37 Zwolf

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 05:02 PM

Quote

If China is so evil and dangerous why would Intel, GM, JDSU, and hundreds of top U.S. corporation invest Billions of dollars in China?

******* Profit makes people do strange things.  We once sold arms to Saddam Hussein, after all... and Halliburton is still doing business with Iran, even though they're high on the enemies list.   I wouldn't say that companies doing business with a country is necessarily a sign of that country's good will.  

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#38 Godeskian

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 05:19 PM

Quote

If China is so evil and dangerous why would Intel, GM, JDSU, and hundreds of top U.S. corporation invest Billions of dollars in China? C'mon, think before you speak PLEASE

money doesn't care about morality. It never has.

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#39 mjtian

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 05:26 PM

Zwolf666, on Mar 16 2005, 05:02 PM, said:

Quote

If China is so evil and dangerous why would Intel, GM, JDSU, and hundreds of top U.S. corporation invest Billions of dollars in China?

******* Profit makes people do strange things.  We once sold arms to Saddam Hussein, after all... and Halliburton is still doing business with Iran, even though they're high on the enemies list.   I wouldn't say that companies doing business with a country is necessarily a sign of that country's good will.  

Cheers,

Zwolf

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I agree, the main goal of corporation is the Bottom Line.  They want to make their share holders happy by almost any measure neccessary.  However, we also have to remember, GE, Walmart, Sony, GM did not become multi billion corporations over night.  Their success stories lies heavily on their research.  And to reap the rewards from such developments will take years not months or days.  It cost $$$ to build a factory and train the employees to run a factory.  If they believe that China will enter an all out war against Taiwan and U.S. why would they invest??    


I have personally visited China twice within the last 3 years.  Granted I stayed in the major cities (Bei Jing, Shang Hai, Hong Kong, Macau, Hang Zhou) and I did not venture out to rural China.  But the standard of living in today's China is not what most of us think it to be.  It is not the third would country we often invisioned.  I spent the first 9 years of my existence in China and when I return as an adult, I could not believe my eyes.  Yes, there is still a gap between China and the Western world, but that gap is closing fast.  Families have multiple cell phones, broad band internet access, cable tv, air conditioner etc etc etc.
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#40 Godeskian

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 05:37 PM

i've never though China to be a 'third world country'. but it's third worldiness, is also completely and totally beside the point.

Edited by Steven_Q, 16 March 2005 - 05:37 PM.

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