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Support Military Action vs China for Taiwan?

Bush Forign Policy China Taiwan Military Action

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Poll: See Below: (38 member(s) have cast votes)

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  1. 1 (8 votes [21.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.05%

  2. 2 (3 votes [7.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.89%

  3. 3 (4 votes [10.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.53%

  4. 4 (1 votes [2.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.63%

  5. 5 (2 votes [5.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.26%

  6. 6 (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  7. 7 (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  8. 8 (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  9. 9 (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  10. 10 (1 votes [2.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.63%

  11. 11 (2 votes [5.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.26%

  12. 12 (5 votes [13.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.16%

  13. 13 (1 votes [2.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.63%

  14. 14 (2 votes [5.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.26%

  15. 15 (3 votes [7.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.89%

  16. 16 (6 votes [15.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.79%

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#41 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 05:54 PM

Quote

Mjtian: I never said the China would invade Hawaii, this was an example to show that we need to stop sticking our nose in other peoples' business.
Taiwan has asked us to stick our nose into their business so that is good enough for me.  Like China doesn’t go around threatening other countries and stick their nose where it doesn’t belong.  This is the same country who has invaded Vietnam and Tibet.  Along with fighting border wars with the Soviet Union and India.  

Quote

Mjtian: How is peace sarcasm?
Tell the people who died defending India, Vietnam, and the USSR from Chinese aggression about peace.  Tell Tibet and the political prisoners in China about peace.  To borrow a quote “peace isn't merely the absence of conflict, but the presence of justice”.  There is no justice for anyone in China.  

Quote

Mjtian: If they believe that China will enter an all out war against Taiwan and U.S. why would they invest??
We were selling things and investing money into Germany in the 1930s prior to World War II so that argument really isn’t valid.  Just because a business does something that doesn’t mean it is the moral or smart thing to do.
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#42 Nonny

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 08:30 AM

mjtian, on Mar 16 2005, 01:55 PM, said:

Nonny, on Mar 16 2005, 10:41 AM, said:

mjtian, on Mar 15 2005, 07:00 PM, said:

I believe we should stay clear of the dispute between China and Taiwan and I hope everyday for a peaceful return of Taiwan so the Chinese people can finally unite and live peacefully among one another.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This smacks of the chilling words of nuns and priests, repeated often throughout my childhood: There will be peace on earth, once eeeeeeeeeverybody is Catholic.   :o  :o  :o  Like unity guarantees peace.  :sarcasm:  :sarcasm:  :sarcasm:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How is peace sarcasm?  Did anyone die when Hong Kong was handed back to China?  Macau?  I don't think so.  Just because China is a communist country that does not mean that they are totally irrational.  If China is so evil and dangerous why would Intel, GM, JDSU, and hundreds of top U.S. corporation invest Billions of dollars in China?  C'mon, think before you speak PLEASE!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How did you get peace is sarcasm from what I wrote?  You should have gotten unity is not peace.  

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#43 Kosh

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 09:07 AM

I'm going to ask a related science question in etu, related to this one.


http://www.exisle.ne...showtopic=26068

Edited by Kosh, 17 March 2005 - 09:19 AM.

Can't Touch This!!

#44 Ilphi

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 01:04 PM

Mjtian said: said:

If they believe that China will enter an all out war against Taiwan and U.S. why would they invest??

In a capitalist and largely free-market economy, people invest where the market it, and with China's hungry economy the market there is huge. I think you're over-simplifying national unity. To bring in a modern example, did you know that much of the concrete that the Israli's are using to build their security barrier is actually sold to them by Palestinian buisnessmen who pick it up cut-price form Egypt?
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#45 G1223

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 02:18 PM

Rule #162 of the Rules of Acquisition.  Even in the worse of times Someone turns a profit.
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#46 mjtian

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 10:32 AM

"Taiwan has asked us to stick our nose into their business so that is good enough for me. Like China doesn’t go around threatening other countries and stick their nose where it doesn’t belong. This is the same country who has invaded Vietnam and Tibet. Along with fighting border wars with the Soviet Union and India. "

So are you saying that anytime any country asks us for help we should step in and defend them?  What makes you think that we have the right to do that?  Why aren't we in Africa when genicide has been going on for years?  Can you say economic and political interest?  

China has had border disputes with Russia, India for years.  During the early 20th century China was often attacked and occupied by foreigners.  They had a weak and corrupt government and was often defeated by the invaders.  That trend continued until the Communist government took control in 1949.  The earlier government was forced to give up Hong Kong and Macau as a result of these embarrasing defeats.  I personally grew up in ShangHai, a city of 16 million people, a city that was once occupied by multiple foreign nationals.  If you just drive around the city, you would see the former French quarter and British quarters etc and the buildings/archetecture are different.  My point is that with their weak givernment, the Chinese were oppressed for decades.  With their new found power and position, they are trying to reclaim what was once theirs.  

If the Chinese and the Russians are such enemies, why then is Russia China's number one supplier of weapons?  The Indian/ Chinese war was in the 1960s.  Again I believe it has to do with border dispute and not an all out invasion by China to attack India.  I lived through some of the Vietnam disputes as a child gorwing up in China.  Once again it is border clashes.  Yes, China did enter Vietnam and even into their capitol.  But China was not an occupying state.  This was to remind the Vietnamese to stop attacking the innocient Chinese farmers that lived along the border.  Look, I do not claim to know all the details of the battles and disputes.  Border disputes are nothing new and will not likely to disappear any time soon.  But to claim that China is this monster that attacks her neighbors without just cause is ludacris.
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#47 tennyson

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 12:04 PM

What did Tibet ever do to China?
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#48 G1223

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 01:28 PM

Well it existed and was a route into India which it was also threatening. But hey China is a big misunderstood freedom loving nation jsut ask the students of Tiamen square. They knew how kind a state they were the citizens of.
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#49 mjtian

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 04:03 PM

G1223, on Mar 18 2005, 01:28 PM, said:

Well it existed and was a route into India which it was also threatening. But hey China is a big misunderstood freedom loving nation jsut ask the students of Tiamen square. They knew how kind a state they were the citizens of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



I never made this claim.  China has changed and while improvements is still needed, you cannot deny the fact that China in 2005 is much different than many westerners ideals of China.  When was the last time you actually step foot on China?  Do you have any idea what it is like to live in China today versus how it was like 15 years ago?  There is no doubt that more needs to be done.  But change need time.  When I was growing up in China in the 1980s, food was rationed.  Each individual was only allowed to consume a certain amount of protein (meats).  Toady, there is a McDonald and KFC in every major intersection in ShangHai.  People, including myself had to goto public telephone centers miles from my house to make an international call in 1985.  Today you can dial from home or simply use your cell phone in China to make a call to the United States.    So please don't just bash on a Country because your limited knowledge is based on some article you read 15 years ago.  

What happened at Tianmen Square was a disgrace and I am ashamed of what the government did.  Remember, I never said that the Communist government was good.  As a proud Chinese American I am happy for the people of China today.  When I returned to China in 2002, it was obvious to me that the people of China are much better off now than ever before.  Indeed, they do not have all the freedom that we often take for granted in the West.  But what works for us does not neccessarily translate into success in other Countries.  While Democracy is great and the checks and balances are fair, it is foolish to think that other countries will adopt our system completely.  China has shown that it is no longer a "pure" Communist country.  Private businesses and ownership is booming in China.  My family and many of our friends have recently invested in China.  As the world changes around us so will China.  Perhaps democracy is not on the immediate horizon, but change is inevitable and change is good for China and its citizens.

cnn  Here is more evidence of change.

Edited by mjtian, 18 March 2005 - 04:33 PM.

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#50 G1223

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 07:30 PM

Yes they have this nice system where the generals of certain provinces get to keep a portion of the profits that the slave.. I mean prison labor generates in those prisons factories.

I guess the improvement comes at the cost of the horrible criminals. Who are sometimes prisoners for thinking thoughts the state disappoves of. Might believe in a faith unauthoruized by the state.

Yes There are improvements are there now the students know what will happen for standing up for their rights. Now it's time to teach Taiwan that wanting to be free of a loving and good for them Communist government is wrong and must be done under threat of violence. Or in this case the promise of it.


Excuse me if I feel that it's better to gauge another nation based on it's actions.
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#51 HubcapDave

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 07:38 PM

It seems to me that China is trying to have things both ways: An authoritarian government with a free marktet system. That is a fine edge to walk. Sooner or later it's going to tip one way or the other: either the Chinese get enough of a taste of freedom they push for the democracy they want, or the government comes down hard on the people to keep them in line and we go back to the days of the Cultural Revolution :crazy: .

#52 G1223

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 07:42 PM

At least they could do another Great Leap Forward. That mess killed millions of Chinese people but do not worry the government does not teach it's failures that way they can repeat each mistake time and again. After all what can a uneducated peasant do to his oh so wise politcal officer. Besides bow down and accept his fate.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#53 FnlPrblm

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Posted 19 March 2005 - 12:22 AM

Nonny, on Mar 16 2005, 09:41 AM, said:

This smacks of the chilling words of nuns and priests, repeated often throughout my childhood: There will be peace on earth, once eeeeeeeeeverybody is Catholic.   :o  :o  :o  Like unity guarantees peace.  :sarcasm:  :sarcasm:  :sarcasm:
Nonny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


And this means what exactly?  I don't see the logic between comparing a civil war strife to a religion which has consistantly taken wars upon itself in the name of god and good grace.  (And that's not a strike against Catholics really, just historical fact as most religions have done the same.)  I just don't see the relevance in your comment.

tennyson, on Mar 16 2005, 04:00 PM, said:

The see the chance for relatively short-term profit without considering what it means for them in the long-term. Just look at how huge piles of American industry have been moved to other countries by corporations looking to make products cheaper since the 1980s without considering the effect that would have on the US manufacturing base. Corpations do not look after nation interests, they look after thier own short term profit margin.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Businesses aren't going to blindly build in a country they know who will be going against the country in which they reside in (not in the short term anyway).  Germany was slightly different.  The U.S. economy and most of the globes before WWII was in shambles.  Germany's economy was in fact taking off and recovering.  There was also no certainty that we would be against Germany either (beings there were so many German's (and wealthy ones at that) residing in the U.S..  Now I don't know what companies you all are speaking of (investing) or when they went there.  One could argue all day about that stuff (when, where and what their intentions were and so on).   Also business practices today are absoluetly nothing compared to what they were 70 years ago.

G1223, on Mar 17 2005, 01:18 PM, said:

Rule #162 of the Rules of Acquisition.  Even in the worse of times Someone turns a profit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Um...I can't quote that stuff like you, but isn't there also a Rule Of Acquisition that goes something like....Rule #1.., profiteering is only profitable as long as your not on the front lines.  Oh and...welcome back to real life. ;)

tennyson, on Mar 18 2005, 11:04 AM, said:

What did Tibet ever do to China?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


And isn't this the irony of it all?  Why aren't we attacking China for something like that?  I mean, the real reason why we are defending Taiwan isn't for freedom or any of that cloak and mist stuff.  It's all about trade and economics with the U.S..  Buddism is (last time I checked) the fastest growing religion in the world and was supposidly to out number catholics soon.  It's been a growning trend here in the U.S. since the early '90s.  So why aren't we demanding the freedom of a peaceful people?  Or going into Africa (like mjtian said) to stop genocides?  Or hell, Central America where the really big (and quite) genocides are taking place?  Because we don't have economic interest there.  Without economic or political interests which are in harms way, there is no threat to Capitalism (not democracy).  That's what we are really motivated by.

mjtian, on Mar 18 2005, 03:03 PM, said:

G1223, on Mar 18 2005, 01:28 PM, said:

Well it existed and was a route into India which it was also threatening. But hey China is a big misunderstood freedom loving nation jsut ask the students of Tiamen square. They knew how kind a state they were the citizens of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



I never made this claim.  China has changed and while improvements is still needed, you cannot deny the fact that China in 2005 is much different than many westerners ideals of China.  When was the last time you actually step foot on China?  Do you have any idea what it is like to live in China today versus how it was like 15 years ago?  There is no doubt that more needs to be done.  But change need time.  When I was growing up in China in the 1980s, food was rationed.  Each individual was only allowed to consume a certain amount of protein (meats).  Toady, there is a McDonald and KFC in every major intersection in ShangHai.  People, including myself had to goto public telephone centers miles from my house to make an international call in 1985.  Today you can dial from home or simply use your cell phone in China to make a call to the United States.    So please don't just bash on a Country because your limited knowledge is based on some article you read 15 years ago.  

What happened at Tianmen Square was a disgrace and I am ashamed of what the government did.  Remember, I never said that the Communist government was good.  As a proud Chinese American I am happy for the people of China today.  When I returned to China in 2002, it was obvious to me that the people of China are much better off now than ever before.  Indeed, they do not have all the freedom that we often take for granted in the West.  But what works for us does not neccessarily translate into success in other Countries.  While Democracy is great and the checks and balances are fair, it is foolish to think that other countries will adopt our system completely.  China has shown that it is no longer a "pure" Communist country.  Private businesses and ownership is booming in China.  My family and many of our friends have recently invested in China.  As the world changes around us so will China.  Perhaps democracy is not on the immediate horizon, but change is inevitable and change is good for China and its citizens.

cnn  Here is more evidence of change.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Here's the thing (and this goes back to the intelligence remark I made too), you CAN'T blame the people for what the government does as long as there are people in society who fight for what they believe in and help change for the better what has been done wrong (such as opposing the government).  MJT, you shouldn't feel shame unless you agreed with what the military did.  If you felt bad for the students, then (as one who wasn't old enough to take part in either side) you shouldn't bare the guilt of mistakes of others.  I say that and I still feel sorry and guilty for the European's treatment of Native Americans.  *shrugs*  Anyway, as long as progress is being made to a more peaceful and caring place (no matter what still has to be done), then I call it progress.  There is plenty of things the U.S. needs to address.  Don't forget, we're on the Humanitarian Rights bad list too.  Maybe not quite as bad, but still on it.
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#54 FnlPrblm

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Posted 19 March 2005 - 12:32 AM

G1223, on Mar 18 2005, 06:42 PM, said:

At least they could do another Great Leap Forward. That mess killed millions of Chinese people but do not worry the government does not teach it's failures that way they can repeat each mistake time and again. After all what can a uneducated peasant do to his oh so wise politcal officer. Besides bow down and accept his fate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Just as our nation makes Andrew Jackson out to be a hero of New Orleans.  The mere mention of his tyrannical envolvment of the Trail of Tears is a single line in most American history books.  I'm sure the same goes for Mexican and Brit./European and so on history books.  So don't think that any country isn't somewhat patriotly geared in their teachings.  Besides, China has over ten thousand years of history to teach.
"It is an old maxim of mine that when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes: The Beryl Coronet

The Boscombe Valley Mystery: "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact."

"Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing." --- Ralph Waldo Emerson 'Art,' 1841

"Such welcome and unwelcome things at once, 'Tis hard to reconcile." --- Macbeth IV.III.138-9


LauraBertram.net

"Once in one's life, for one mortal moment, one must make a grab for immortality; if not, one has not lived." -- Sylvester Stallone

Time to eat all your words, swallow your pride, open your eyes...Sowing the Seeds of Love - Tears4Fears

#55 mjtian

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Posted 19 March 2005 - 01:08 AM

G1223, on Mar 18 2005, 07:30 PM, said:

Yes they have this nice system where the generals of certain provinces get to keep a portion of the profits that the slave.. I mean prison labor generates in those prisons factories.

I guess the improvement comes at the cost of the horrible criminals. Who are sometimes prisoners for thinking thoughts the state disappoves of. Might believe in a faith unauthoruized by the state.

Yes There are improvements are there now the students know what will happen for standing up for their rights. Now it's time to teach Taiwan that wanting to be free of a loving and good for them Communist government is wrong and must be done under threat of violence. Or in this case the promise of it.


Excuse me if I feel that it's better to gauge another nation based on it's actions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Just where are you getting all your info from????  Slaves?  Generals profiting?  Yes, there are hundreds if not thousands of people in prisons for political reasons.  China's judicial system has always been tough and sometimes questionable.  I agree.  It is a shame that they do not allow freedom of speech and have to take such drastic actions as jail time.  But where are you getting this information about slaves?  Can you please stop making up stuff!!!  You act like China is a lawless nation.  I personally felt more safe walking at night in ShangHai that I do walking through Central Park in NYC at night.  People in China are not allow to own guns.  The police rarely carry guns themselves.  If you murder someone in China, you will probably get the death penalty.  If you rape a woman, you will probably get the death penalty.  If you sell drugs or steal millions of dollars from a publically traded company you will probably get the death penalty.  I am in no way supporting the death penalty.  This is just to point out that there are laws in China and harsh punishments are carried out daily.  

If you for one second think that corruption does not occur here in the U.S. you have to be BLIND.  Ever heard of Enron or MCI?  What about this ex-Governor of Connecticut?  The Mayors in New Jersey?  Do I need to say more?
"I have missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot... and missed. And I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why... I succeed" -Michael Jordan

#56 Godeskian

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Posted 19 March 2005 - 01:13 AM

mjtian, on Mar 19 2005, 07:08 AM, said:

If you for one second think that corruption does not occur here in the U.S. you have to be BLIND. 

"Yo are just as bad as we are" is hardly a ringing endorsement of China, and isn't a very strong position in it's own right.

#57 mjtian

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Posted 19 March 2005 - 02:24 AM

Steven_Q, on Mar 19 2005, 01:13 AM, said:

mjtian, on Mar 19 2005, 07:08 AM, said:

If you for one second think that corruption does not occur here in the U.S. you have to be BLIND. 

"Yo are just as bad as we are" is hardly a ringing endorsement of China, and isn't a very strong position in it's own right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



What is your point?  What do you mean?  Have you read G1223's post on the supposed slavery and corruption?  I am just reminding him/her that corruption is everywhere and I do not know where this thing about slavery came about.  I am not endorsing anything, just stating the facts and displaying my beliefs.  Isn't this the purpose of this board?  To have an educated and noble way of expressing one's thoughts?
"I have missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot... and missed. And I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why... I succeed" -Michael Jordan

#58 G1223

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Posted 19 March 2005 - 03:24 AM

Yes but a Warden who pockets the money earned by the workers in a prison factory. Would be looking at being arrested here in the US. In China he only faces arrest if he fails to send the rest of the money on to his superiors.

What you think China is moving towards democracy? They have been adictatorship with ruling cabels running the place only moving forward people and causes that keep them in power.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#59 FnlPrblm

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Posted 19 March 2005 - 03:59 AM

G1223, on Mar 19 2005, 02:24 AM, said:

Yes but a Warden who pockets the money earned by the workers in a prison factory. Would be looking at being arrested here in the US. In China he only faces arrest if he fails to send the rest of the money on to his superiors.

What you think China is moving towards democracy? They have been adictatorship with ruling cabels running the place only moving forward people and causes that keep them in power.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



What?  I agree with MJTian on this...Where are you getting your facts from?  Post an article or some news or something.  There are tons of humanitarian rights issues with China (no doubt), so I would ask that you post some relavent to what your expressing.

Maybe even a hint of something like for example, the NRA and/or pharmacutical companies and/or the oil industry and/or the other big businesses endorsing and paying to help keep the Republicans in office.  (just as an example)
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The Boscombe Valley Mystery: "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact."

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#60 Josh

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Posted 19 March 2005 - 04:03 AM

G, you are being incomprehensible. If you're going to spout off things and treat them like they're facts, I suggest you find material to back up your claims.
"THE UNICORNS ARE NOT TO BE TRIFLED WITH!" - John Burke.



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