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If Fox News was around for other historical events

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#21 Bad Wolf

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 04:35 AM

Monique Peppermint, on Apr 7 2003, 01:16 AM, said:

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 6 2003, 06:05 PM, said:

Ah, I think you're right.

Thank you.  My brain was going to all kinds of weird places.  Weirder even than usual....

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#22 gadfly

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 05:06 AM

Quote

Um, exactly what is that hand stroking?

Um, Kathy has the literal interpretation right.  It is indeed Legolas preparing his arrow to fire.

And LOL!  I'm still laughing and my mind is so in the gutter it's nice to see I'm not alone...  ;)  :lol:

#23 G1223

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 05:57 AM

What no "Peter Arnett tells the truth about his patriotism towards america" Oh wait that would be listed as fiction.
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#24 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 06:13 AM

Quote

Zack: CJ, you do know that Neville Chamberlain was a Tory, right?

Indeed I did.  I never said that conservatives don’t have our bulk of idiots either.  This is yet another reason on the board for why I shouldn’t make posts with quotes without elaborating that I'm not after the speaker of it.  

The bulk of it was rather more aimed at FDR for his management of the Munich Conference and pushing France and England to resolve it peacefully.  This was really a place where militarily they could have made a stand against Hitler.  Czechoslovakia was no lilliputian when it came to military power and had some favorable terrain for fighting a defensive battle.  With a fair amount of support they could have fought off the Germans.

The rest of it was aimed at Edouard Daladier.  You might be able to call him centre-left in terms of his views.

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 07 April 2003 - 06:58 PM.

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#25 Bad Wolf

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 06:18 AM

gadfly, on Apr 7 2003, 01:55 AM, said:

Quote

Um, exactly what is that hand stroking?

Um, Kathy has the literal interpretation right.  It is indeed Legolas preparing his arrow to fire.

And LOL!  I'm still laughing and my mind is so in the gutter it's nice to see I'm not alone...  ;)  :lol:
Hmmmmmmm...

Thanks....I think...

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#26 Christopher

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 07:22 AM

Delvo, on Apr 6 2003, 06:47 PM, said:

Nothing special here. Just the usual childish yet bloodthirsty, lying potshots being taken by leftists unable to deal with the fact that their propaganda can't be passed off as "news" anymore.
You've got to be kidding.  You don't seriously think Fox News isn't propaganda?  This isn't about left vs. right, it's about objective journalism vs. yellow journalism.

CJ:

Quote

If Fox is the mouthpiece for the Republican Party then why are they insulting Lincoln? I swear Democrats seem to forget what party was founded as a movement to deny the movement of slavery into the territories. While the other one fought savagely with slavery as a key part of their policy. Of course that small detail seems to be forgotten.

That's exactly the problem -- so much of the things that the Republican Party used to stand for have been forgotten by the Republican Party.  I read an article last year which revealed that back in the '60s or '70s, the Republicans were the ones who spearheaded environmentalist efforts.  Nixon was a big supporter of such things.  But the current generation of Republicans has rejected those principles.  It's the same with racial issues -- over the generations, the parties have pretty much switched poles on civil rights.

That's the problem with people who define everything in terms of Democrat vs. Republican, left vs. right -- those identities aren't absolutes, but change over time.  People who obsess on what side you're on leave themselves no room to think about what's right.
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#27 Bad Wolf

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 11:28 AM

Christopher, on Apr 7 2003, 05:11 AM, said:

People who obsess on what side you're on leave themselves no room to think about what's right.
Damn straight!!!!!!!!
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#28 the 'Hawk

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 04:18 PM

Christopher, on Apr 6 2003, 11:11 PM, said:

over the generations, the parties have pretty much switched poles on civil rights.
If I may....

That mostly has to do with Harry Truman.

In 1948, he decided to appeal to black voters and move to the Left in order to gain enough support to get elected. He needed to trump Henry Wallace's ace ---as it were, if FDR would've died before the 1944 election, Wallace would've become president, and his pro-Soviet, anti-arms race policies would've been enough to change the scope of things in the 50's considerably.

Truman decided to appeal to black voters by campaigning on civil rights. In the process, the alienation of Southern Democrats, who apparently forgot about that li'l somethin' called the Civil War, was complete, causing Strom Thurmond to run his own campaign, and causing all those Democrats to leave the party. And in a move that caused Lincoln to spin in his grave like a freakin' pinwheel, the Republican Party welcomed them with open arms, because as we all know, the history of any local congressman or senator is the history of patronage. Whether or not it's corruption, it sure doesn't hurt knowing campaign money is going to you, and not the other guy.

Yeah. And, you know the rest. Add to that the Democrats' considerable constitutency among the major labour unions across the country, and you have quite a voter base. Truman wins because Wallace and the Republicans (some lame duck named Dewey who's only remembered for beating Truman on the front page of the Chicago Tribune-- coincidentally the same Tribune company responsible for DROM, in a roundabout polemic way), China goes red, Truman gets blamed for it, Ike takes the Oval Office in 1952, civil rights get buried, Kennedy gets elected, and the sixties begin.

The curious thing is, in the last election Republicans have begun campaigning towards the "minority vote"--- that is, blacks and Hispanics ---but, of course, haven't accompanied that by anything even close to a move to the Left.

Just 'cause I like showing I know stuff. You know, that this university degree I'm about to get isn't just toilet paper with a nice fancy wax seal.

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#29 Delvo

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 06:04 PM

Quote

You've got to be kidding.  You don't seriously think Fox News isn't propaganda? This isn't about left vs. right, it's about objective journalism vs. yellow journalism.
That's my point. Fox News finally brought fairness and balance to television "journalism" that had been sorely lacking for years because all of the rest of TV news was and is so left-wing. So, in a way, that means this is about left and right, and in a way it means it isn't; there STILL isn't a conservative TV news network. (There's just one that has all the usual leftist hate-speech spat at it as if it were.)

Quote

over the generations, the parties have pretty much switched poles on civil rights.
That's an excellent example of the kind of leftist lie I'm talking about! Well done! Back then, the "poles" were the people who wanted equal rights for all, and those who wanted to oppress or suppress black people. For the poles to have flipped in the modern world, both sides would have to still exist, but they don't. There is no longer any major contingent that wants to keep blacks down. Conservatives and Liberals just have vastly different ideas about how to help. The liberal method is to show favoratism to those they deem disadvantaged to cancel out the disadvantage. The conservative method is based on the principle that such treatment ultimately harms them by discouraging them from taking care of themselves, which they can really do better than anyone else anyway if you stand back and let them.

The most major difference other than that is how each side behaves about the other's view. Conservatives could easily think liberals are racist on this; from our viewpoint there has to be a reason why they'd insist on policies with a consistent track record of making things worse for black people, not better, and the idea of specially helping one group and not another seems to stink of the belief that that one group is incompetent to handle anything themselves. But how often do you hear us say that? Not much, if you can answer honestly; we try to remind ourselves that it's not really racism, but just a big mistake by the well-meaning. Liberals, on the other hand, can't last long any time the subject comes up before spewing a bunch of nonsense about conservatives supposedly wanting a return to slavery or Jim Crow laws and segregation and thinking lynchings are a fun way to spend a weekend evening. Just look at your quote above; claiming the parties have "switched poles" is claiming that Republicans/conservatives are now against letting black people live a normal American life, and would gladly commit attrocities against them to keep them in their place. Pretty neat Democrat trick there, trying to tie Republicans to the Democrats' past. And you people KNOW it's not true, so what does it say about yourselves that you keep on reciting it anyway?

Quote

Democrat vs. Republican, left vs. right -- those identities aren't absolutes, but change over time.
But, interestingly, not at the same pace; the ideological labels are more long-lasting than the party ones, and the  parties are quicker to shift between the ideologies on certain issues. This makes sense, since liberal/conservative is about what one really BELIEVES, while the parties are chosen affiliations for political purposes.

Edited by Delvo, 07 April 2003 - 06:08 PM.


#30 Cardie

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 06:23 PM

Delvo, I invite you to live in South Carolina for sixth months and then tell me that no one still exists who wants to keep blacks down or return to the days of segregation. At the moment these folks call themselves Republicans and conservatives, but that doesn't matter. What matters is the blindness of any political party that thinks such people don't exist.

My parents were Republicans because a Republican president had been in office when their parents immigrated to the USA. Because the family had a retail tradition, they stayed Republicans because of the pro-business leanings and an anti-labor bias stemming from the really ugly strikes and corrupt union leaders on full display in West Virginia. I'm a Democrat now because in the sixties, after LBJ pushed through much of the major Civil Rights legislation, racists quite unlike my family started calling themselves Republicans.

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#31 the 'Hawk

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 07:06 PM

I gotta weigh in with Cardie here, Delvo.

Having been to the beautiful state of South Carolina once or twice myself, I'll never forget the look on my ex-fiancee's face when I explained my affinity for the Confederacy, as a military historian who's researched General Lee from a purely military perspective.

As Clausewitz said, war is simply political commerce through other means. Something I clearly forgot when talking to her --who's seen the political commerce of such hatreds firsthand, who's had to live with it her entire life.

It does exist, not in some buffoonish Jerry-Springer style. It doesn't matter how it's perpetrated, by what political party is running the establishment today. So long as racism is part of that establishment, no one's right.

On that note, Cardie, I gotta say, I wish I could live in South Carolina for six months. Say, from October to March. I hear it's not so cold down there as it is up here, eh?

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#32 Delvo

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 07:10 PM

Cardie, on Apr 7 2003, 09:12 AM, said:

Delvo, I invite you to live in South Carolina for sixth months and then tell me that no one still exists who wants to keep blacks down or return to the days of segregation.
Lovely misrepresentation there, but it barely resembles what I said. I said that there's no longer any major group like that, so that those individuals aren't a part of the basic political debate that goes on in this country on the subject. The only catch is that liberals keep trying to paint all conservatives and libertarians that way.

And I lived in a rural county deep in the Southeast for 20 months, and yes I did meet some of those people. Their existence has nothing to do with my point.

Edited by Delvo, 07 August 2004 - 01:13 PM.


#33 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 07:18 PM

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Christopher: This isn't about left vs. right, it's about objective journalism vs. yellow journalism.
Then we should roast CNN, MSNBC, and the other major networks alongside of Fox. None of our media is exactly what you could call "objective".

Quote

Christopher: I read an article last year which revealed that back in the '60s or '70s, the Republicans were the ones who spearheaded environmentalist efforts.

You can really go back to Teddy Roosevelt to see the start of the conservation movement in the United States Federal Government really. Now there was a great president.

Quote

Christopher: But the current generation of Republicans has rejected those principles..

I think this is the other problem that you go to. Too many people are willing to blanket each of the parties as having a set grounds for issues even in the present. New York State under Pataki has seen an increases in the size and level of protection that the Adirondack Park enjoys. Far higher than anything you saw under the democrat Cumo. Pataki I'd have to say is a harkening back to Nelson Rockefeller in many ways and that type of ideology among the Republican Party in the Northeast

Quote

Hawk: The curious thing is, in the last election Republicans have begun campaigning towards the "minority vote"--- that is, blacks and Hispanics ---but, of course, haven't accompanied that by anything even close to a move to the Left.

Apparently they did manage to grab a noticeable amount of the Hispanic vote in the election. An interesting trend considering the demographics of the country as it stands today.
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#34 G1223

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 07:19 PM

Sorry there are racist in both parties. You think George Wallace was a fluke? I am a Republican on a national level. I voted for Bush becasue I knew Gore was a liar.

When one goes to a Buddist temple it's bad form for your Secret service detail  to list it as a fundraiser. Worse to have folks show up saving they thought it was a fundraiser. Unforgivable for the Canidate to say"I did not know it was a fundraiser"

Now either he's a idot or a liar. I give him the title liar becasue he could not have gotten to where he was by being a simpleton.

Now in Indiana I voted in the last four elections for the Democratic  canidate for Govenor. Why becasue I did it to try and keep balance. If the Democrates stopped running guys who did not make feel like I needed to keep both hands on my wallet  and worry about losing my right to legally and lawful own a weapon. I might be willing to listen to that sort of man. Is he out there yes,is he running for office no.
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#35 QueenTiye

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 07:37 PM

Chiming in here, with just a slightly different pov...

First - on the conservative/liberal ideological divide - I tend to be more conservative than anything.  Delvo, for exactly the reasons you state - it bugs the heck out of me that liberal notions seem to consider a priori that minorities are the ones who need help/are wayward/etc.  I recently got a resume in the mail from someone who was reporting that they were so wonderful for helping African-American and Latino youth.  No mention about what was wrong with these youth that they needed help - apparently the fact that they were African-American and Latino was sufficient.  :angry:

BUT... the fact that racists choose to band together and flock to a particular party says something - and it inherently alienates those who are most likely to be victimized by these folk.  Historical analysis given here explains what caused the migration - but that historical analysis doesn't help allay the fears of those of us who are reasonably concerned about a large voting block of racists having the power to influence policy.  The way the race card plays comes from major political kow-towing on BOTH sides - the liberal constituencies persistently promoting the idea that they will "take care of" their helpless minority voters, and the conservative constituencies persistently promoting the idea that they "won't help" the minority constituency as a subtle nod to the racist constituency.  

At least that's how it looks.

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#36 Rhea

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 08:33 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 6 2003, 05:05 PM, said:

Appreciate, on Apr 7 2003, 12:52 AM, said:

Isn't it the feather part of an arrow?

Isn't that Legolas' hand?

Kathy :o
Ah, I think you're right.

Thank you.  My brain was going to all kinds of weird places.  Weirder even than usual....

:eek2:

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Mine, too. :p :p Great minds and all that....   :p  :p

And Zack, ROTFLMAO!  :lol:
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#37 Cardie

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 08:34 PM

Delvo, you said, "There is no longer any major contingent that wants to keep blacks down. " You didn't say how big that major contingent was, and I don't think it's a misrepresentation for me to instance South Carolina, and the many other Sunbelt states by affiliation, to demonstrate that there is a very sizable contingent of people all over this country who would agree with Trent Lott that things were more to their liking in the days of Jim Crow. The day that the Republican Party comes out strongly in their platform and in all public statements to say that they don't want any voters who are not for full inclusion of all Americans in our society, and don't give little winks and nods by opposing policies that racists oppose and supporting policies that they support, then that's the day I'll feel better about them. There's got to be some reason that the South suddenly went Republican in the late sixties, after being solidly Democrat (read Dixiecrat) since the War of Northern Aggression.  ;)

There is a lot of paternalistic great White Fatherism in many liberal positions to be sure, some of it hypocritical. Here at my university, we used to have what can only be called a separate liberal arts college for marginal students, called the College of General Studies. When it was decided to abolish it, they didn't want to fire the faculty, so they invented this one-year program, called the Transition Year, which would admit students who usually didn't meet regular entrance requirements and give them one year in a highly regimented curriculum to prove themselves. I was on several committees that were handling this, and people from the administration kept saying that we would represent it as an effort to maintain diversity in the face of rising admission standards. I had noted that we managed to have 18% minority enrollment without any special dispensations and kept asking them to tell the truth, that we just didn't want to fire long-time faculty, and this was a way to help anyone who didn't want to take the usual path by proving themselves at one of our two-year affiliated campuses and then transferring. but no, they felt they could only sell it to the Faculty Senate by trumpeting its contribution to diversity.  In the end, the great majority of Transition Year students were the under-achieving progeny of middle-class whites who had plenty of ability but no work ethic and whose parents didn't want the "stigma" of having them turned down by every competitive four-year-university. I am thankful to say that the Transition Year is now defunct, the faculty have been taken in by other departments, and we still have high minority enrollments despite ever-increasing admission standards.  But I've also heard lots of white parents say that they won't send their kids to USC because it's too "urban," and we all know what that means.

So 'Hawk, I wish I'd known you occasionally graced the Palmetto State. We could have met. April is beautiful this year, though we're currently having a cold wave--it's 60 degrees  :p

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#38 Rhea

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 08:36 PM

Cardie, on Apr 7 2003, 07:12 AM, said:

Delvo, I invite you to live in South Carolina for sixth months and then tell me that no one still exists who wants to keep blacks down or return to the days of segregation. At the moment these folks call themselves Republicans and conservatives, but that doesn't matter. What matters is the blindness of any political party that thinks such people don't exist.

My parents were Republicans because a Republican president had been in office when their parents immigrated to the USA. Because the family had a retail tradition, they stayed Republicans because of the pro-business leanings and an anti-labor bias stemming from the really ugly strikes and corrupt union leaders on full display in West Virginia. I'm a Democrat now because in the sixties, after LBJ pushed through much of the major Civil Rights legislation, racists quite unlike my family started calling themselves Republicans.

Cardie

Or Texas (I know from firsthand experience, having lived there)..Or Georgia...or Louisiana...or any number of other states. Racism is alive and well - it's just gone slightly underground.

And which minority you belong to is irrelevant, because if you're not white you're a n*gger. It's that simple. I dated a perfectly lovely Moroccan man for a while, and we consistently had trouble getting served in restaurants in Austin (this was way pre-9/11).  He was nice-looking, articulate, educated, and spoke flawless English. These days, instead of refusing service, they just "happen" not to notice you.  :eek2:

Racism is SO not a dead issue.

Edited by Rhea, 07 April 2003 - 08:46 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#39 Bad Wolf

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 08:44 PM

And for crying out loud, how RECENTLY was it that a certain member of Congress got in trouble for expressing his views in support of segregation?  The idea that there are not powerful people behind racism is ludicrous.  I will however say that they certainly aren't all republican.  Sweeping generalizations are usually inaccurate.
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#40 QueenTiye

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 08:46 PM

Rhea... been in that predicament a couple of times myself...

Cardie... thank you for sharing that story!  Where I went to school, the Transitional Year Program was undergoing similar struggles - what bugged me most was the student's assumption that an attack on TYP was an attack on minorities - as if there were no other minorities enrolled on campus who DIDN'T come through as TYP students... when the stats came out demonstrating that the majority of people involved in TYP were in fact NOT minority students, that fact was simply ignored.  And at the time, and until this very moment - I hadn't even THOUGHT about the whole two-year college path...

Thank you for the food for thought!

QT

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