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Cardinal Asks Catholics to Shun Da Vinci

Catholics Media Da Vinci Code Movie Catholics shun Religion

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#81 Nonny

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 12:27 AM

I am serious.  If you understand what it means, then explain it.  No answering questions with questions, just explain.  

Nonny
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#82 Nonny

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 12:30 AM

deMona, on Aug 25 2005, 09:14 PM, said:

how have i 'hijacked' this thread???   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I tell you what.  Why don't you memorize this thread, all the posts, then I bet you'll be able to understand.  :rolleyes:  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#83 Anastashia

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 12:38 AM

Nonny, on Aug 26 2005, 01:23 AM, said:

Anastashia, on Aug 25 2005, 09:13 PM, said:

Nonny now come on,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ani, I like you and I respect you, but you are starting to talk down to me like certain others in this thread, and I'm not happy.  

Nonny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I'm sorry if you felt I was talking down to you there Nonny, but I honestly can't believe that you think the cardinal doesn't know this book is a novel. So to see you say that was a bit annoying. I wasn't meaning to talk down to you. I was meaning to tell you that you were saying something that I believe you're too smart to really believe.
The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
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For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

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#84 Chakotay

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 12:46 AM

^^ so many people who have read it are treating it like it's for real, just like they did with it's main source document 'Holy Blood and Holy Grail'.

Sometimes anything that places doubt on what they learnt in Sunday School just grabs people. Or maybe it's because so few people these days went to church as children and got taught the Jesus stories in context. The thing about the Magdalen being a prostitute is not canonical at all.
  No plan survives first contact with the enemy - military axiom.

#85 Anastashia

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 12:53 AM

Nonny, on Aug 26 2005, 01:27 AM, said:

I am serious.  If you understand what it means, then explain it.  No answering questions with questions, just explain. 

Nonny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


1. Who made us?  
God made us.  

2. Who is God?  
God is the Supreme Being, infinitely perfect, who made all things and keeps them in existence.  

3. Why did God make us?  
God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us His everlasting happiness in heaven.  

I cannot look at the world around me, look at the stars in the night sky and not believe there is a creator who put it all together.
The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

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#86 nutmeg

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 12:56 AM

I have no clue why you insist, Anastashia, on telling me what my motives were. We checked out what people didn't want us to read or hear. Making lists of what we couldn't read or see smacked of  CENSORSHIP and we thought  that making up our own minds was a good thing. In fact, my very religous Catholic mother ENCOURAGED  us in our explorations.

If people are so simple-minded that they take a work of fiction for fact maybe they do need the clergy of the church to protect them. So maybe you are right. But I chose to believe that Catholics in general are not a bunch of simpletons who need a Cardinal to chose what books they can and cannot read. But if you think they do need all of this hand-holding, well, so be it.

nutmeg

#87 Anastashia

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 01:43 AM

Baltimore Cathecism #2

Nonny it's there and the questions go on in Section 1 "The Purpose of Man's Existence" from where I've started above. I've been looking over that next section of questions and honestly for me the answers given are clear and simple and I can not put them into any more clear or simple terms. So you said you were not able to ask the "tiniest" question. So there must have been some point where the clarity and simpleness I see was no longer clear or simple to you. So I'll rephrase my question to you. At what point in this series of statements did you have a question? If you can ask me specifically "What does this mean?" I'll endeavor to put it into some other words. If I can't answer your question adequately then I'll go to some of the Catholic apologetic sites I frequent and see if I can find some additional assistance.

BTW I can see where your memory might have lead you to believe that the book was called CCD now. It actually has

Cathecism of Christian Doctrine
Baltimore Cathecism #2

then below that, in the position of author IMO, Confraternity of Christian Doctrine.

FYI I don't know if there was ever a BC #1. I remember my first cathecism was titled First Communion Cathecism and that may have been considered #1.
The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

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#88 woody000

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 03:28 AM

waterpanther, on Aug 25 2005, 11:14 PM, said:

Quote

Of course they're Christians, technically, and of course they still (in the opinion of most other Christians) can go to heaven. But the problem is that they hold on to so many ideas which are laughable to other Christians, which are archaic to an extreme and don't even hold firm with regard to the scriptures themselves! Catholics are thought of this way because there is simply far too many things to question. No other domination sparks as many

What was that Jesus said?  Something about not throwing rocks at other folks?   :whistle:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


lol, you're probably right. But then again, I've only thrown stones in reply to other people. When you're in a debate, it's hard to stop yourself from doing this, when to do so would make you look worse in the debate.

Nonny, on Aug 26 2005, 05:04 AM, said:

deMona, on Aug 25 2005, 08:58 PM, said:

he obviously can tell it is fiction.† that makes no difference when it is being touted by many as fact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whatever he may or may not believe about the novel, can he prove that the teachings of his church are, in fact, fact and not, in fact, fiction?  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


You're mixing up religion and science again. :p The issue with the davinci code, (at least imo), is an issue with bad science corrupting people's minds. (Not that I personally have a problem with intelligent Christians reading the book.) Having said that, many catholics don't exactly embrace science, so I suppose that's probably not what he's meaning. Nevertheless, what he means isn't clear in this case.

Edited by woody000, 26 August 2005 - 09:36 AM.


#89 Niko

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 08:00 AM

Anastashia, on Aug 25 2005, 11:56 PM, said:

Maybe you had one that was titled CCD Nonny but I never did. Mine were titled Baltimore Cathecism right on the cover. It is still sold under that title.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For comparison: Although religion classes were still called "CCD" when I was growing up in the 70's, I don't ever recall memorizing anything like this catechism.  If I ever knew what CCD stood for, I'd forgotten it before finding out in this thread.  :)  By the time I graduated high school, the term had been phased out in our church entirely in favor of "PSR" (Parish School of Religion).

When I was talking to my mom, the question/answer Anastashia quoted were what she said, too, but I don't recall ever getting the lessons in that format in particular.  And I KNOW that when I was teaching (3rd graders in the early 90's) the only thing we wanted to kids to learn by rote was the Apostle's Creed.  We took one piece of the creed a week, talked about what it meant, and expected the kids to memorize the actual prayer as we went along.
- Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me.    (Matthew 25:40)

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#90 Anastashia

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 08:47 AM

There was a point where the use of CCD was dropped as a reference to the classes, but as all things like that it hung on long after there was actually another title for them.
The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

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#91 Rhea

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 01:42 PM

Anastashia, on Aug 25 2005, 06:54 PM, said:

I have totally the opposite reaction nutmeg. I have no desire to read this book. I probably wouldn't have anyway, but the church speaking out about it just reinforces my decision.

You and your friends reacted this way because you were being rebellious. Please don't assume that every Catholic has to be so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


The irony of all of this is that in the book, he references texts like the Dead Sea Scrolls and others that have been available for anyone to read for some time, that are certainly genuine, and that do in fact imply that Jesus might have been married, and a few other tidbits that the Catholic Church has chosen not to recognize.

And oddly enough, what I took away from this book was not the vilification of the Catholic Church that the Pope implies, but rather that it's a good idea to know the history of your religion and where it came from, and not just blindly blunder through life taking everything any church tells you at face value.

Much of the texts about Jesus' parentage (and his possible marriage) were expunged at the request of the emperor Constantine, who was not even a Christian, but was a pagan! When he chose Christianity as the religion of the Holy Roman Empire, he had some judicious editing done to support the idea of immaculate conception, Christ as the son of God and messiah instead of just a prophet, and some other juicy facts.  Dan Brown didn't make up this material - it's out there for anyone to see.
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#92 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 08:29 PM

Moderatorís Helmet On!
I'd like to take this time now to remind everyone that religion is an extremely hot topic and it can draw heated reaction on both sides of the aisle.  Please attempt to discuss the topic of the thread, something about religion, or some other discussion topic that the thread might lead to.  Donít discuss your fellow posters in a negative manner and I asky everyone to steer clear of that type of post.  
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#93 szhismine

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    why must you hurt me in this way Harry...

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 10:18 AM

Quote

"I would ask the author of this book and similar ones to be more respectful because freedom of expression has limits when it does not respect others," he said.

*grinds teeth*

freedom of expression does not, or more realistically, should not have limits. anything can be insulting and disrespectful for anyone. if we all acted on that, no one would say/do anything.
Neville: "My grandmother forbids me from using raunchy language."
Harry: "Well your grandmother is a Blast-Ended Skank!"
Neville: *GASP*
Hermione: "He doesn't mean it Neville, he's just testing out some wizard swears."
Harry: "I mean every word I ever say ever, because I'm Harry Potter." --'Wizard Swears', Potter Puppet Pals

Hermione: "What's your problem Harry?"
Harry: "My parents are dead, my life sucks, I can't hold down a girlfriend, and I'm surrounded by f*ck*ng goblins and sh*t all the time. I mean what the f*ck?"
Ron: "But it's magic Harry. The goblins are magical!" --'Wizard Angst', Potter Puppet Pals

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#94 Chakotay

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 12:51 PM

Want to explain that to the mullah's who put a fatwah on Salman Rushdie for writing 'The Satanic Verses'?

Some folks are extremely sensitive about their interpretation of their 'sacred texts'. I can understand that, even though I don't share it.
  No plan survives first contact with the enemy - military axiom.

#95 Nonny

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 06:18 PM

woody000, on Aug 26 2005, 12:28 AM, said:

You're mixing up religion and science again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since I have never done any such thing, I can't possibly have done it "again."  The topic BTW is literature.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#96 Nonny

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 06:41 PM

To Ani and all the other sincerely religious people taking part in this thread: I'm finding that the memories of Catholic school are setting off too much emotional turmoil in me at this time, so, after a very productive session with my clinician yesterday, and after reading through some of the posts again just now, I have decided to step out for a while.  But before I go, I will address one issue:  

I asked my first religious question more than fifty years ago, and though I don't remember the question, I vividly recall the teacher's finger pointing straight into my face and her thundering words, "the devil asks why!"  No matter how sincere my questions, no matter how innocent, and I was by no means a smart alecky child, the simple fact that I was asking bought me a boatload of trouble for the eight horrible years.  The most common response was, "you think you're soooo smmmaaaaaarrrrrrrt!"  I would be sitting there, all confused, thinking, but sister, I'm in school, aren't I supposed to be smart?  Good thing I never dared say that out loud!  

The best thing my mother ever did for me was stand up to the rest of the family and say that if she couldn't send all seven of us (we were a small Catholic family, only seven children) to Catholic high school, she wouldn't send any of us.  I was the oldest, and my excellent public high school was heaven on earth.  After years of being pounded down, I blossomed from the attention I got from teachers, some of whom tutored me in ninth grade so I could catch up with the advanced placement classes by the second semester.  

This is something I asked much later, but is probably typical of the kind of question I would ask at any age: how come the Blessed Virgin cries whenever a girl whistles?  I thought you said that God wipes away our every tear when we go to heaven.  I'm guessing, and this is a new insight, that many of my questions were gender related, and that they were hitting too close to home for my all female grade school teachers.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#97 Chakotay

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Posted 28 August 2005 - 03:15 AM

Vatican Two changed so much for the better, Nonny.

Sorry to hear you had such a reactionary bunch of teachers. That was a deep, deep shame that did the church a whole power of bad, and that's still going to take a long time for it to get away from.

Peace.
  No plan survives first contact with the enemy - military axiom.



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