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Reaping what we sow

Bush Teri Shiavo Opinion

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Poll: Given the Way Bush has stepped in with the Schiavo case, would you still vote for Bush? (36 member(s) have cast votes)

Given the Way Bush has stepped in with the Schiavo case, would you still vote for Bush?

  1. Yes (10 votes [27.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.78%

  2. No (26 votes [72.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 72.22%

  3. Not sure (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#21 Godeskian

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Posted 21 March 2005 - 01:47 PM

Zwolf666, on Mar 21 2005, 07:41 PM, said:

if you think that she's cognizant enough to suffer from starvation, then imagine how much more cruel it would be to leave her in the state she's in - if she were cognizant - for years.

This is one of my special nightmares actually.

twice in my life, i've woken up mentally, without waking up physically, and i've been fully cognizant, but unable to move, to turn my head, or open my eyes, and the sheer panic of those moments still makes me shiver.

My parents and my sister know that if this sort of thing ever happens to me to pull the plug, because if there is anything I truly consider to be hell, then this is it.

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#22 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 21 March 2005 - 01:48 PM

Myself I donít think there is an easy moral situation out of this issue but I think both sides are too polarized to admit it.  I do think the Florida Court system is being rather useless in this case even though I donít know what Iíd do myself.  To be honest I do not trust much of what is coming out of either side.  This is one case where I wouldn't want to make a call without the full body of information in my hands rather than fragments from either side.  But I was trying to make the point that comparing Bush to the Nazis is a little over the top since it could be used on either side.
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#23 Zwolf

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Posted 21 March 2005 - 01:58 PM

Quote

CJ sez: This is one case where I wouldn't want to make a call without the full body of information in my hands rather than fragments from either side.


***** Definitely.  That's why I think it should be handled by the doctors and the family, because they're closest to the situation and know the most about what's going on.  With the courts and the government getting involved, it's just making a bigger mess.

Quote

But I was trying to make the point that comparing Bush to the Nazis is a little over the top since it could be used on either side.

******** I'd agree with that, but I wasn't really taking the initial statement to be a comparison of Bush with Nazis.   If it was, yep, I'd agree that it wasn't a fair comparison.

Cheers,

Zwolf
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I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
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#24 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 21 March 2005 - 02:03 PM

CJ AEGIS, on Mar 21 2005, 01:09 PM, said:

Just to raise a point.  The Nazis starved people to slow deaths among other nasty things in the concentration camps.  What type of death is Shiavo suffering with the feeding tube removed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I was referring to those they executed in the gas chambers...as for those they starved to death...you make a good point.
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#25 G1223

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Posted 21 March 2005 - 02:09 PM

RuReddy1, on Mar 21 2005, 05:59 PM, said:

Yes,† I would still vote for Bush.†  I'm sorry but I think Terri Shiavo is still living since she can breathe and her heart is beating on its own.† She is only getting fed because that is one thing she can not do for herself.†  We do not know what her wishes are.† Going by what her husband has said,† leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

~Red

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Espically since this desire for her to die was expressed after a large cash windfall. Was he saying this was her desire before being igven the award?

Now as to her being alive I am not sure that she is that is why I'd like some group not connected to either side to look the issue of that and make it clear for the courts, state, Federal Gov and let the decision be made and stuck to.


BTW as to the poll part of this. You already have people who have said they did not vote for Bush. as divsive as the campagine was I would not expect anyone from that side to change their vote.  So I that the poll is rather pointless.

Edited by G1223, 21 March 2005 - 02:11 PM.

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#26 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 21 March 2005 - 03:26 PM

G1223, on Mar 21 2005, 02:09 PM, said:

BTW as to the poll part of this. You already have people who have said they did not vote for Bush. as divsive as the campagine was I would not expect anyone from that side to change their vote.  So I that the poll is rather pointless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Correct. I forgot to add that option. My bad.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#27 Zwolf

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 01:33 PM

For those who were so concerned with not having a flip-flopper for a president...

He voted for the right to die, before he voted against it...

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#28 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 01:37 PM

Zwolf666, on Mar 22 2005, 01:33 PM, said:

For those who were so concerned with not having a flip-flopper for a president...

He voted for the right to die, before he voted against it...

Cheers,

Zwolf

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


LMAO! Oh that is just priceless. Too bad the media doesn't rub Bush's face in this.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#29 Shoshana

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 05:04 PM

Zwolf666, on Mar 21 2005, 12:41 PM, said:

<snip>This woman is brain dead.  She will suffer nothing by having the feeding tube removed.  <snip>

Cheers,

Zwolf

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Actually, she isn't brain dead. If she was, there wouldn't be this dilemma. She's in a 'persistant vegetative state' ... which is, as far as I can tell a state where important parts of her brain are non functioning. She can breathe on her own. She can open her eyes, smile etc, but supposedly that doesn't mean she has any recognition of the world around her.

And the doctors are saying that she wouldn't suffer.

And as far as recovery from this state, I haven't seen any experts say that it's actually possible to recover from it after 15 years. So ...

I know my mom has said many times she wouldn't want to be kept alive on machines.  We went thru that with my dad and it was awful even having to decide what to do once he was on the machines and we knew he wasn't going to get better.

Zwolf666, on Mar 22 2005, 12:33 PM, said:

For those who were so concerned with not having a flip-flopper for a president...

He voted for the right to die, before he voted against it...

Cheers,

Zwolf

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yeah, and the media's just now getting into that.

'shana

Edited by Shoshana, 22 March 2005 - 05:05 PM.


#30 Lin731

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 06:13 PM

I had sense enough not to vote for him in the first place. Didn't vote for him in the first election or the second...I like candidates that speak English (go figure).

Quote

Zwolf666† Today, 01:33 PM Post #27†





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For those who were so concerned with not having a flip-flopper for a president...

He voted for the right to die, before he voted against it...

Cheers,

Zwolf


Yeah but only for those who couldn't afford to pay to LIVE...Ya gotta take that into account. Your life is only as precious as your insurance coverage allows

Edited by Lin731, 22 March 2005 - 06:21 PM.

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#31 Robert Hewitt Wolfe

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 06:17 PM

I'll just say this:

As someone who's conservative on fiscal issues, Libertarian on social ones, a progressive domestically, and a moderate against unwise entanglements and attempts at social engineering with regard to foreign policy, I should be voting Republican every time.  

If there were still a Republican Party, that is.

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#32 Rhea

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 06:23 PM

Never voted for him. Never will.

But not because of Terri's case. Too much injection of his own religion into his decision-making process, among a host of other things.

I do violently object to a ramming through of this bill just for a single case. It reeks of exactly what brother Jeb has done in Florida - subvert the law to bring it into line with his religious and political leanings.

Edited by Rhea, 22 March 2005 - 06:36 PM.

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#33 Cait

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 06:29 PM

G1223, on Mar 21 2005, 11:09 AM, said:

Espically since this desire for her to die was expressed after a large cash windfall. Was he saying this was her desire before being igven the award?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That large cash windfall was put in a Trust which the husband had NO control over.  It was put in trust for her medical care (and it is now all gone).  The 300K he received for loss of marital privileges was HIS money, awarded to him for the loss of his wife.

Yes, there was a judgment for the malpractice, but he NEVER had control of it.  It's loosely researched facts like this that enflame something like this.

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#34 Vapor Trails

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 06:41 PM

GiGi, on Mar 21 2005, 03:36 AM, said:

I didn't vote for him either.  I am mostly suspicious of most of the motives of the GOP.  But the state court in Florida looks pretty shady in the opposite direction.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Frankly, I'm suspicious of BOTH Democrats and Republicans.

Hell, I don't trust ANY politician.

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#35 Spectacles

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 12:08 PM

In fairness to Republicans, several have been outspoken critics of this action by the religious-right-wooing leadership of their party. Of course, the questions remains: how much influence do they have in the party these days.

http://www.nytimes.c...s/23repubs.html


Quote

"This is a clash between the social conservatives and the process conservatives, and I would count myself a process conservative," said David Davenport of the Hoover Institute, a conservative research organization. "When a case like this has been heard by 19 judges in six courts and it's been appealed to the Supreme Court three times, the process has worked - even if it hasn't given the result that the social conservatives want. For Congress to step in really is a violation of federalism."

Stephen Moore, a conservative advocate who is president of the Free Enterprise Fund, said: "I don't normally like to see the federal government intervening in a situation like this, which I think should be resolved ultimately by the family: I think states' rights should take precedence over federal intervention. A lot of conservatives are really struggling with this case."

Some more moderate Republicans are also uneasy. Senator John W. Warner of Virginia, the sole Republican to oppose the Schiavo bill in a voice vote in the Senate, said: "This senator has learned from many years you've got to separate your own emotions from the duty to support the Constitution of this country. These are fundamental principles of federalism."

"It looks as if it's a wholly Republican exercise," Mr. Warner said, "but in the ranks of the Republican Party, there is not a unanimous view that Congress should be taking this step."

In interviews over the past two days, conservatives who expressed concern about the turn of events in Congress stopped short of condemning the vote in which overwhelming majorities supported the Schiavo bill, and they generally applauded the goal of trying to keep Ms. Schiavo alive. But they said they were concerned about what precedent had been set and said the vote went against Republicans who were libertarian, advocates of states' rights or supporters of individual rights.

"My party is demonstrating that they are for states' rights unless they don't like what states are doing," said Representative Christopher Shays of Connecticut, one of five House Republicans who voted against the bill. "This couldn't be a more classic case of a state responsibility."

"This Republican Party of Lincoln has become a party of theocracy," Mr. Shays said. "There are going to be repercussions from this vote. There are a number of people who feel that the government is getting involved in their personal lives in a way that scares them."

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#36 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 12:14 PM

Spectacles, on Mar 23 2005, 12:08 PM, said:

In fairness to Republicans, several have been outspoken critics of this action by the religious-right-wooing leadership of their party. Of course, the questions remains: how much influence do they have in the party these days.

http://www.nytimes.c...s/23repubs.html


Quote

"This is a clash between the social conservatives and the process conservatives, and I would count myself a process conservative," said David Davenport of the Hoover Institute, a conservative research organization. "When a case like this has been heard by 19 judges in six courts and it's been appealed to the Supreme Court three times, the process has worked - even if it hasn't given the result that the social conservatives want. For Congress to step in really is a violation of federalism."

Stephen Moore, a conservative advocate who is president of the Free Enterprise Fund, said: "I don't normally like to see the federal government intervening in a situation like this, which I think should be resolved ultimately by the family: I think states' rights should take precedence over federal intervention. A lot of conservatives are really struggling with this case."

Some more moderate Republicans are also uneasy. Senator John W. Warner of Virginia, the sole Republican to oppose the Schiavo bill in a voice vote in the Senate, said: "This senator has learned from many years you've got to separate your own emotions from the duty to support the Constitution of this country. These are fundamental principles of federalism."

"It looks as if it's a wholly Republican exercise," Mr. Warner said, "but in the ranks of the Republican Party, there is not a unanimous view that Congress should be taking this step."

In interviews over the past two days, conservatives who expressed concern about the turn of events in Congress stopped short of condemning the vote in which overwhelming majorities supported the Schiavo bill, and they generally applauded the goal of trying to keep Ms. Schiavo alive. But they said they were concerned about what precedent had been set and said the vote went against Republicans who were libertarian, advocates of states' rights or supporters of individual rights.

"My party is demonstrating that they are for states' rights unless they don't like what states are doing," said Representative Christopher Shays of Connecticut, one of five House Republicans who voted against the bill. "This couldn't be a more classic case of a state responsibility."

"This Republican Party of Lincoln has become a party of theocracy," Mr. Shays said. "There are going to be repercussions from this vote. There are a number of people who feel that the government is getting involved in their personal lives in a way that scares them."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Thanks for posting that info. I don't blame all republicans...just the idiots that voted this BS through, and Bush for signing it. EVERYONE, both republican and democrat, that voted for this BS needs to be voted out.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#37 Rhea

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 12:15 PM

Quote

"This Republican Party of Lincoln has become a party of theocracy," Mr. Shays said. "There are going to be repercussions from this vote. There are a number of people who feel that the government is getting involved in their personal lives in a way that scares them."

My mother, who is a very moderate Democrat of 78, said not long ago that Bush is beginning to remind her most unpleasantly of the early Hitler. I disagreed with her then, but I'm beginning to wonder now if she wasn't right. When you have no respect for the law or the Consitution, there may be no end to the lengths this man goes to in order to get his own way.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#38 Zwolf

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 12:18 PM

Quote

"My party is demonstrating that they are for states' rights unless they don't like what states are doing," said Representative Christopher Shays of Connecticut, one of five House Republicans who voted against the bill.

******* Or, as Stephen Colbert on the Daily Show was saying, Republicans were for a less-intrusive federal government and state's rights... but that was before they were in control of the whole federal government.  :)

I don't envy them being stuck with the fundies now.  The fundies are useful for padding your numbers and helping you get a bigger voter turnout, but they don't go away after that's done, and they're very power-hungry.   The GOP has allied themselves with something that's probably going to hurt them a lot in the long run.   One thing religion's good for is creating schisms, and all the in-fighting that comes with it.  It may end up fragmenting the party, as it becomes more and more entrenched with religious dogma rather than political ideology.  But, who knows.  Time will tell, I s'poze.

Still, government may end up with a system of sects and balances...  :)

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#39 Godeskian

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 12:35 PM

Zwolf666, on Mar 23 2005, 06:18 PM, said:

Still, government may end up with a system of sects and balances...  :)

:lol:

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#40 G1223

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 12:42 PM

Rhea, on Mar 23 2005, 05:15 PM, said:

[My mother, who is a very moderate Democrat of 78, said not long ago that Bush is beginning to remind her most unpleasantly of the early Hitler. I disagreed with her then, but I'm beginning to wonder now if she wasn't right. When you have no respect for the law or the Consitution, there may be no end to the lengths this man goes to in order to get his own way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


  But he has not burned down congress and used the fire as an excuse to to declare marshall law. He has not arrange for the blame to fall on radical democratic members  of congress. He has not arrange for a new secret police to arrest political enemies and had them shot.

Basically if Bush is Hitler then where are the bodies?

Bush did not send doctors from the Army into the hospital and have them insert the tube and place a soldier with a M-16 outside the door? He asked for and got a bill passed in congress to try and put the breaks on this till a clear answer could be found. In the other thread there is a post about the list of doctor who think she could be saved.  So the answer to her situation is not clear cut as to leave no question.

Bush basically used the power of the president to lawfully ask for the stay. He did not violate the law to do this. It's just not popular with the people who want to kill this woman without getting a clear cut answer.
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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

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