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Reaping what we sow

Bush Teri Shiavo Opinion

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Poll: Given the Way Bush has stepped in with the Schiavo case, would you still vote for Bush? (36 member(s) have cast votes)

Given the Way Bush has stepped in with the Schiavo case, would you still vote for Bush?

  1. Yes (10 votes [27.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.78%

  2. No (26 votes [72.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 72.22%

  3. Not sure (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#41 Godeskian

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 12:53 PM

G1223, on Mar 23 2005, 06:42 PM, said:

Basically if Bush is Hitler then where are the bodies?

Please remember that Hitler didn't start his career in politics by shooting his enemies.

Quote

Bush basically used the power of the president to lawfully ask for the stay. He did not violate the law to do this.

No, i understand that he sidestepped the checks and balances that are supposed to exist, by asking congress to ignore the courts. It may have been legal, i'm not sure it was ethical.

Edited by Steven_Q, 23 March 2005 - 12:54 PM.

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#42 G1223

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 01:00 PM

What did the law say. This cannot be overturned by any court in the US?
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#43 Godeskian

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 01:02 PM

G1223, on Mar 23 2005, 07:00 PM, said:

What did the law say. This cannot be overturned by any court in the US?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


You should know better than me, that the whole point of having three branches is for them to keep each other in check and balance each other. Do you honestly believe that's what's happened here, or did Congress just put up a gigantic billboard saying 'the US courts mean nothing to us'

Edited by Steven_Q, 23 March 2005 - 01:02 PM.

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#44 G1223

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 01:05 PM

As LOP pointed out in the other thread that the law allows the woman or her family access to a federal judge. That is not a violation of the checks and balances.
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#45 Godeskian

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 01:11 PM

that's a matter of some debate, as the law as it was didn't give them the right.

They just rewrote the rules for this special case. Like i said, it's legal, i'm not sure it's ethical.

Wonder if they'll rewrite the law AGAIN, now that this judge has also said no

Edited by Steven_Q, 23 March 2005 - 01:12 PM.

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#46 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 01:18 PM

G1223, on Mar 23 2005, 01:05 PM, said:

As LOP pointed out in the other thread that the law allows the woman or her family access to a federal judge. That is not a violation of the checks and balances.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


She has a right to an appeal, yes. But to have congress come in and pass a law that DOES violate seperation of powers is illegal.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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#47 HubcapDave

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 03:17 PM

I'd still vote for the guy. An issue like this is not going to hold great sway over me.

Now, had the law Congress passed and Bush signed directly ordered Terri's tube be put back in, I might understand people's outrage at a "blatant violation of the separation of powers". But that's not what the law did. What it does is give the Schindlers access to Federal courts which they did not have before. While that is certainly a tricky issue and may be on shaky constitutional ground (to me it seems more of a state's rights issue than a separation of powers issue), it is certainly not the "blatant violation" that you people are making out to be.

#48 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 03:32 PM

HubcapDave, on Mar 23 2005, 03:17 PM, said:

I'd still vote for the guy. An issue like this is not going to hold great sway over me.

Now, had the law Congress passed and Bush signed directly ordered Terri's tube be put back in, I might understand people's outrage at a "blatant violation of the separation of powers". But that's not what the law did. What it does is give the Schindlers access to Federal courts which they did not have before. While that is certainly a tricky issue and may be on shaky constitutional ground (to me it seems more of a state's rights issue than a separation of powers issue), it is certainly not the "blatant violation" that you people are making out to be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


When they try and tell a Federal Judge that he CAN NOT look at the previous state courts...that is violation of seperation of powers.

We definately NEED another revolution. Bush and the GOP are becoming tyrants, trying to do away with the system of checks and balances...making their opinions the only law allowed.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#49 Kosh

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 05:01 PM

CJ AEGIS, on Mar 21 2005, 02:09 PM, said:

LORD of the SWORD, on Mar 21 2005, 03:27 AM, said:

thus prolonging her suffering. IMO, and only my opinion, treating Terri worse then the prisoners of the Nazi death camps...
Just to raise a point.  The Nazis starved people to slow deaths among other nasty things in the concentration camps.  What type of death is Shiavo suffering with the feeding tube removed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>




You beat me to it. I was going to call him on it.



Didn't vote for Bush, don't know today who I'd vote for. This issue aside, things are turning out better in Iraq then I could have hoped, there's still a long way to go, but all in all it could be worse. Doesn't look like he's going to get his way with Social Security, at least not this year.



You can't put this all on Bush anyway. Had he vetoed the bill, he would have had all those angry Republicans in the house and Senate to deal with, along with the Dems, who already hate him in large part.
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#50 Kosh

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 05:02 PM

Quote

We definately NEED another revolution. Bush and the GOP are becoming tyrants, trying to do away with the system of checks and balances...making their opinions the only law allowed.


And you've just noticed?
Can't Touch This!!

#51 Spectacles

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 05:50 PM

Quote

LoTS: Thanks for posting that info.


You're welcome. :)

Quote

I don't blame all republicans...just the idiots that voted this BS through, and Bush for signing it. EVERYONE, both republican and democrat, that voted for this BS needs to be voted out.


I'm with you on this one. I do feel bad for Republicans who are, as article stated, "process conservatives" as opposed to social conservatives. I actually admire pragmatic conservatives. Takes a lot of cojones these days for them to take a stand against the ideologues and panderers who are running the show these days. And, yes, there are ideologues and panderers in the Democratic party, too. We just don't have to fear them these days since they're out of power. Now we have to worry about the right-wing flava since they're holding all the cards.

But I have a lot of respect for Warner and Chaffee and others who are willing to separate from the pack on this one and stand on traditional, conservative principle. And actually, I think the notion that politicians shouldn't interfere in private matters is just universally American, neither liberal nor conservative. That's the reason that most Americans find this disturbing.

Can't tell that to Rush Limbaugh, though. On my way to the store today, I cruised talk radio. O'Reilly got it. Limbaugh didn't. O'Reilly argued that according to law Michael Schiavo had the right to insist that his wife wouldn't want to live like this. Limbaugh was just doing his usual schtick: evil liberals are the only ones who are critical of Congress's action and will pay dearly in 2006 and 2008 for wanting to "kill" Terri Schiavo.
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#52 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 06:43 PM

G1223, on Mar 23 2005, 12:42 PM, said:

Basically if Bush is Hitler then where are the bodies?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


On indefinate life-support.  :p
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#53 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 06:46 PM

G1223, on Mar 23 2005, 01:05 PM, said:

As LOP pointed out in the other thread that the law allows the woman or her family access to a federal judge. That is not a violation of the checks and balances.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That's not all the law said, though. Congress specifically said that the State Courts never happened. That the Federal Judge should NOT consider the previous rulings. As far as I'm aware...that's the Legislature dictating to the Judical, which violates the seperation of powers. Congress had no authority to do that.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#54 Nonny

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 06:49 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Mar 23 2005, 03:43 PM, said:

G1223, on Mar 23 2005, 12:42 PM, said:

Basically if Bush is Hitler then where are the bodies?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

On indefinate life-support.  :p

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:hehe:  :hehe:  :hehe:  :hehe:  :hehe:
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#55 Nonny

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 06:51 PM

Spectacles, on Mar 23 2005, 02:50 PM, said:

Limbaugh was just doing his usual schtick: evil liberals are the only ones who are critical of Congress's action and will pay dearly in 2006 and 2008 for wanting to "kill" Terri Schiavo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What drug is he on?!  Oh yeah....  :rolleyes:

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#56 HubcapDave

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 06:55 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Mar 23 2005, 04:46 PM, said:

G1223, on Mar 23 2005, 01:05 PM, said:

As LOP pointed out in the other thread that the law allows the woman or her family access to a federal judge. That is not a violation of the checks and balances.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That's not all the law said, though. Congress specifically said that the State Courts never happened. That the Federal Judge should NOT consider the previous rulings. As far as I'm aware...that's the Legislature dictating to the Judical, which violates the seperation of powers. Congress had no authority to do that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Not to derail the thread, but how is this different than Mass. Supreme Court ordering the legislature to make a law legalizing gay marriage?

#57 Spectacles

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 07:41 PM

Quote

how is this different than Mass. Supreme Court ordering the legislature to make a law legalizing gay marriage?

I'm no lawyer, but the arguments that the Massachussetts Supreme Court did something extraordinary or overstepped its bounds in that case seem false. The plaintiffs (gay and lesbian couples who want to marry) sued the State in court. Plaintiffs do that in America all the time. The court has to decide who has the better argument, the plaintiffs or the state. In this case, the state court found that the state's constitution could not be read to prohibit same-sex marriage, and that there was no rational basis for doing so. When courts find against a state, then the state has to do something about it, and when writing law is concerned this falls to the legislature. But, again, I'm not a laywer so I may be missing something.

Same thing happened during the Civil Rights era when "activist judges" ruled against Southern segregation, which was codified in many state and local laws. Unconstitutional laws had to be stricken or amended--grudgingly, I might add.

The difference here is that the Congress, a lawmaking body, mandated that the Schiavo case must be given a federal hearing--even though state courts have the final sayso in these kinds of disputes, or did. So, they broke new ground. And in doing so, some argue, overreached.

To me it seems that in the future, when similar family disputes over termination of life-sustaning measures arise, families NOT the Schindlers now have grounds to claim discrimination if the Congress doesn't pass a bill to permit them to take their dispute to federal court.

One of the principles of our country is that special laws are not made for individuals. This seems to be a violation of that principle.

In the gay marriage case, we're dealing with a dispute over the civil rights afforded to a class of people. In the Schiavo case, a bill creating a special federal hearing was passed solely for an individual--who actually is representative of many others; however, their cases are expressly excluded from future consideration in the bill.  It's mindboggling.
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"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#58 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 08:37 PM

Nonny, on Mar 23 2005, 06:51 PM, said:

Spectacles, on Mar 23 2005, 02:50 PM, said:

Limbaugh was just doing his usual schtick: evil liberals are the only ones who are critical of Congress's action and will pay dearly in 2006 and 2008 for wanting to "kill" Terri Schiavo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What drug is he on?!  Oh yeah....  :rolleyes:

Nonny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



LMFAO! Well, guess that would mean I'm an evil liberal. *shudders just thinking about the term Liberal being applied to him.*
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#59 G1223

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 11:17 PM

HubcapDave, on Mar 23 2005, 11:55 PM, said:

Not to derail the thread, but how is this different than Mass. Supreme Court ordering the legislature to make a law legalizing gay marriage?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



My guess is because the Mass. situation is something that liberals want therefore it is totally acceptable without question. While this is something conservatives want and is therefore evil and must be questioned every way it can be.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
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TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

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#60 eloisel

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 11:57 PM

Zwolf666, on Mar 22 2005, 06:33 PM, said:

For those who were so concerned with not having a flip-flopper for a president...

He voted for the right to die, before he voted against it...

Cheers,

Zwolf

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, that is not quite true.  Read the statue.  It gives a list by priority of who is to be the guardian - 1st - spouse, 2nd - adult children, 3rd - parents, etc.  It also provides that any person on that list may object to the treatment prescribed by the guardian and apply for temporary guardianship.  The parents in the Schiavo case have objected to the treatment prescribed by the guardian.



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