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Pharmacists denying Patients their prescriptions

Health Contraception 2005

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#1 sierraleone

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 11:48 AM

http://www.washingto...-2005Mar27.html

:eh:

Did they not consider that they might have to dispense this stuff when they first were working on this career choice? I mean, birth control has been around since the 60s or 70s! Its not like its something new. Its not always practical to send them to another pharmacists, and they might accidently or purposely send them to someone else who might refuse. If they do go this route, then they have to have some system in place to ensure they DO get their prescription.

Apparently there was one pharmacist who refuse to refer the customer to another pharmacist, or even send/transfer the prescription to another drug store!

Also - some try to argue that they are suppose to do no harm. What about women who cannot healthily carry children, or have an inhertible disease?

And birth control is not doing harm, as in harming a life already created, its preventing life from starting - though I understand some people don't agree w/ that either. Morning after pill is more debateable, depending on whether it prevents conception, or implantation (I can't recall), and where you think life starts.
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#2 Rov Judicata

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 12:00 PM

^

As long as the pharmacist is consistent (i.e., always fills that prescription and never does), follows the policies of his employer, and returns/transfers the prescription on demand, it's his or her right. If, of course, the pharmacist is disobeying the polocies of his employer, he should and would quickly be fired.

Put another way: I have a constitutional right to buy a gun and ammunition; that doesn't mean I can demand  that K-Mart sell me ammo. I have to go to a store that's willing to sell it.
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#3 Nonny

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 12:02 PM

Pharmacists have some stupid dispensation from having to dispense anything they don't approve of, but they are required by law to refer people to other pharmacists who will, and they are not allowed to keep the prescription to stop them from getting them filled elsewhere.  However, they have been getting away with forcing their stupid beliefs upon others for quite some time now.  I'd like to see them catch heavy prison sentences for interfering with the rights of others, and big honkin' fines.  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:  

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#4 Rhys

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 12:06 PM

Nonny, on Mar 30 2005, 12:02 PM, said:

However, they have been getting away with forcing their stupid beliefs upon others for quite some time now.  I'd like to see them catch heavy prison sentences for interfering with the rights of others, and big honkin' fines.  :angry:  :angry:  :angry: 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



With the exception of the one who wouldn't transfer the prescription, they're not forcing their beliefs on anyone.  People are welcome to take their business elsewhere.

Requiring them to sell products they're morally opposed to, however, would be forcing your beliefs on them.

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#5 Kosh

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 12:12 PM

Quote

it's his or her right



That's insane. You couldn't get by with something like that on some other kind of job. If you refuse to do your work, you should get fired. When you take the job, you accept the responcibility to do it. If you don't want to fill perscriptions for something you think is morally wrong, then get out of the profession.
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#6 Nick

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 12:15 PM

There's a great post about this very thing by Kevin Drum.  Frankly, it reeks of blatant sexism.  My favorite thing that Drum pointed out:

Quote

. . . while shaken teenage girls and women desperately call their doctors, frequently late at night, after being turned away by sometimes-lecturing men and women in white coats. [Washington Post].  Needless to say, there don't seem to be any pharmacists out there who object to filling prescriptions for Viagra.

If it really was about conciencious objection, it'd be one thing . . . but I'm sorry, I just don't buy it.  I'm sure there are one or two pharmacists out there who are consistent and not on a holier-than-thou kick . . . but color me skeptical if there are any more.

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#7 Nonny

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 12:16 PM

^Yes they are, when they stand there lecturing:

Quote

  An increasing number of clashes are occurring in drugstores across the country. Pharmacists often risk dismissal or other disciplinary action to stand up for their beliefs, while shaken teenage girls and women desperately call their doctors, frequently late at night, after being turned away by sometimes-lecturing men and women in white coats.

"There are pharmacists who will only give birth control pills to a woman if she's married. There are pharmacists who mistakenly believe contraception is a form of abortion and refuse to prescribe it to anyone," said Adam Sonfield of the Alan Guttmacher Institute in New York, which tracks reproductive issues. "There are even cases of pharmacists holding prescriptions hostage, where they won't even transfer it to another pharmacy when time is of the essence."

Quote

No one knows exactly how often that is happening, but cases have been reported across the country, including in California, Washington, Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Texas, New Hampshire, Ohio and North Carolina. Advocates on both sides say the refusals appear to be spreading, often surfacing only in the rare instances when women file complaints

Quote

The American Pharmacists Association recently reaffirmed its policy that pharmacists can refuse to fill prescriptions as long as they make sure customers can get their medications some other way.

"We don't have a profession of robots. We have a profession of humans. We have to acknowledge that individual pharmacists have individual beliefs," said Susan C. Winckler, the association's vice president for policy and communications. "What we suggest is that they identify those situations ahead of time and have an alternative system set up so the patient has access to their therapy."

The alternative system can include making sure another pharmacist is on duty who can take over or making sure there is another pharmacy nearby willing to fill the prescription, Winckler said. "The key is that it should be seamless and avoids a conflict between the pharmacist's right to step away and the patient's right to obtain their medication," she said.
Avoiding conflict is not what the refusniks are all about.  Forcing their will upon others is.   :angry:  :angry:  :angry:

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All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#8 Nonny

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 12:18 PM

Kosh, on Mar 30 2005, 09:12 AM, said:

Quote

it's his or her right
That's insane. You couldn't get by with something like that on some other kind of job. If you refuse to do your work, you should get fired. When you take the job, you accept the responcibility to do it. If you don't want to fill perscriptions for something you think is morally wrong, then get out of the profession.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amen to that!  

Nonny
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#9 Zwolf

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 12:19 PM

I hope people remember which pharmacists do this, even though it's legal.  Being a male, I won't need a prescription for birth control - I can buy condoms at Wal-Mart.   But, I'd still like to know if my local pharmacist is what I'd consider a fanatical ideologue, so I could be sure not to give his drugstore my business when I'm getting a prescription filled for anything else.   I wouldn't even want to buy cough drops from a control-freak idiot like that.  He's welcome to his wacko beliefs, but damn if my money'll be supporting them.  

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#10 Nonny

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 12:23 PM

Nick, on Mar 30 2005, 09:15 AM, said:

There's a great post about this very thing by Kevin Drum.  Frankly, it reeks of blatant sexism.  My favorite thing that Drum pointed out:

Quote

. . . while shaken teenage girls and women desperately call their doctors, frequently late at night, after being turned away by sometimes-lecturing men and women in white coats. [Washington Post].  Needless to say, there don't seem to be any pharmacists out there who object to filling prescriptions for Viagra.

If it really was about conciencious objection, it'd be one thing . . . but I'm sorry, I just don't buy it.  I'm sure there are one or two pharmacists out there who are consistent and not on a holier-than-thou kick . . . but color me skeptical if there are any more.

-Nick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes!  And I love Kevin Drum for writing this:

Quote

This is why gender equality per se should get more attention from the liberal community: because it's the underlying core of so many emotional, election-deciding issues. I know, I know: this kind of talk is just so 70s. And it's true that the tone of feminist rhetoric — especially academic feminism — probably puts off a lot of liberal men, including me from time to time. But it's hard to make headway on all these disparate issues without understanding the core sensibility that drives so many of them. We shouldn't allow pique to get in the way of that.

Nonny
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#11 Nonny

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 12:26 PM

Zwolf666, on Mar 30 2005, 09:19 AM, said:

I hope people remember which pharmacists do this, even though it's legal.  Being a male, I won't need a prescription for birth control - I can buy condoms at Wal-Mart.   But, I'd still like to know if my local pharmacist is what I'd consider a fanatical ideologue, so I could be sure not to give his drugstore my business when I'm getting a prescription filled for anything else.   I wouldn't even want to buy cough drops from a control-freak idiot like that.  He's welcome to his wacko beliefs, but damn if my money'll be supporting them.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent idea.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#12 MuseZack

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 12:26 PM

These are public health professionals, and have an obligation to serve their patients.  The comparison to selling guns is specious for that reason.  And some towns have only one pharmacist-- if we allow this kind of crap, we're going to let these pharmacists impose their beliefs on the people they're supposed to be helping.
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#13 Lin731

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 12:34 PM

I can't beleive that pharmasist get away with this crap. If I don't do my job (for ANY reason) I'D be fired, yet these folks can refuse to fill a script on religious grounds???? Perhaps they should have become ministers, preists etc...instead of taking on a career they clearly aren't suited for. When I fill a script, I don't want a theology lesson, I want my d***ed script.  If I want a sermon, I'll got to church, thanks. This situation needs to be changed, it's ridiculous that they'd be allowed to withhold services based on THEIR beleifs. It makes as much sense as a Vegian taking a job on the cattle stun line for pete sake.
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#14 sierraleone

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 12:57 PM

^ Or  The religious group (forget the name sorry) that won't use modern technology, applying for a job, and won't deal w/ a printer/phone/till/any other modern equipment that most jobs use now a-days.
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Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
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Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#15 Rov Judicata

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 01:31 PM

Quote

Kosh: That's insane. You couldn't get by with something like that on some other kind of job. If you refuse to do your work, you should get fired. When you take the job, you accept the responcibility to do it. If you don't want to fill perscriptions for something you think is morally wrong, then get out of the profession.

Now, if a pharmacist is working for Walgreen's or whatever and refuses to follow company policy and dispense the medication, then Walgreen's will deal with it quickly and permanently. If, however, it's ABC Drugs and the pharmacist owns the store, then what he says, goes. He doesn't have to sell a product, any more than a Jewish deli has to serve pork, or a liberal convenience store owner has to sell ammo. Nor do we force somebody who believes in temperance to sell alcohol. This really isn't much different.

Quote

MuseZack: These are public health professionals, and have an obligation to serve their patients. The comparison to selling guns is specious for that reason.

If pharmacies have a legal obligation to provide *any* medication, regardless of their personal beliefs, I haven't heard of it. What's your source on that?

In fact, the article the OP referenced cuts across your assertion:

Quote

It has also triggered pitched political battles in statehouses across the nation as politicians seek to pass laws either to protect pharmacists from being penalized -- or force them to carry out their duties.

[Aside: This, btw, is a classic example of liberal bias in newspaper writing. A straight news piece says with a straight face that pharmacists has a 'duty' to dispense the medication, despite the fact that no such law exists! Again, a pharmacist working for a chain that mandates administering birth control might have a duty, but an independent pharmacist has no such obligation, to the best of my ability to determine].

In fact, the most analogous situation is probably abortion. Thanks to judicial fiat, women have the right to an abortion, but that doesn't mean that a doctor is obligated to perform abortions. [There's a bit of a difference because, as I understand it, doctors who perform abortions need special training, but even a doctor with said training wouldn't be *forced* by the state to provide abortion. He's allowed to use his own moral compass.].

Quote

Zack: And some towns have only one pharmacist-- if we allow this kind of crap, we're going to let these pharmacists impose their beliefs on the people they're supposed to be helping.

Not really. If it's a regular birth control situation, where the woman wants a continuous supply of pills, then internet pharmacies will work beautifully. (www.eckerd.com  and www.drugstore.com are both reputable companies, as I understand it).

If it's an emergency situation—that is, where the woman wants enough of a dose to prevent the egg from implanting on the egg wall—then the woman can decide whether it's worth the trip or not. How many people actually live in an area where they don't have a local pharmacist and one isn't in driving distance in case of emergency? I've heard speculation about that, but I've never seen a study about how common it actually is.

Edited by Hotspur Rovinski, 30 March 2005 - 01:34 PM.

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#16 Rhea

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 01:49 PM

Nonny, on Mar 30 2005, 09:02 AM, said:

Pharmacists have some stupid dispensation from having to dispense anything they don't approve of, but they are required by law to refer people to other pharmacists who will, and they are not allowed to keep the prescription to stop them from getting them filled elsewhere.  However, they have been getting away with forcing their stupid beliefs upon others for quite some time now.  I'd like to see them catch heavy prison sentences for interfering with the rights of others, and big honkin' fines.  :angry:  :angry:  :angry: 

Nonny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Me too. They should find another profession if they can't deal with it. Too many fundamentalists have been emboldened by the Bush adminstration and are now not just refusing to fill birth control prescriptions, but have talked about refusing to fill any prescription that might be used in an assisted suicice (which boggles the mind, because the list of drugs that MIGHT be used in an assisted suicide is truly mind-boggling, and there's no way they could EVER figure out which was which).

What I believe in daily life and what I do in my business life are two different things. I do what is necessary to my job - if I found part of it morally objectionable I would protest. If that didn't work, I'd find another line of work. Forcing your morality on someone who doesn't share your beliefs is detestable, IMO.
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#17 Rhea

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 01:51 PM

Hotspur Rovinski, on Mar 30 2005, 10:31 AM, said:

If it's an emergency situation—that is, where the woman wants enough of a dose to prevent the egg from implanting on the egg wall—then the woman can decide whether it's worth the trip or not. How many people actually live in an area where they don't have a local pharmacist and one isn't in driving distance in case of emergency? I've heard speculation about that, but I've never seen a study about how common it actually is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



I don't know many in California, but there are a lot of small towns in Texas, for example, where a drive to the next town over could be a long one.

And it all gets back to whether the pharmicist should have the right to impose their moral beliefs on the rest of us.  I think that if they can't do the job they should find one that doesn't involve working with the public.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#18 Nonny

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 02:13 PM

Hotspur Rovinski, on Mar 30 2005, 10:31 AM, said:

If it's an emergency situation—

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, cuz newly raped women have the social skills necessary to deal with bigots.  :sarcasm:  :sarcasm:  :sarcasm:  :sarcasm:  :sarcasm:

Does anybody know this?  Is the "day after" pill dispensed at ERs to rape victims who want it, to make sure they get it in time?  Or do they have to run the gauntlet of public places and potential disapproval while at their most upset and vulnerable?  

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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#19 Nonny

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 02:15 PM

Rhea, on Mar 30 2005, 10:49 AM, said:

Forcing your morality on someone who doesn't share your beliefs is detestable, IMO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree!  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#20 G1223

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 02:18 PM

Now Rov remember the liberal bias in print news reporting is not actually there. What you and I see is totally different than the reality as others wish to see it. Just like the Emperor and his new clothes.

Now as to the dispensing of drugs. While I would wish to see people keep their religion at home. I can understand where people find the need to stand by those beliefs in both the workplace and outside the home.

I would simply as others have said go to another phramacy or make arrangements with the doctor towards getting the order filled somewhere somehow.

Now I do not live in a part of the world where the next nearest place is 40+ miles away. I would hope that a doctor who's patients are having problems getting the medicine can make arrangements to get those prescriptions filled elsewhere and brought to their patients.

That is assuming doctors care about their patients.
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