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It is not Principles but Attitudes

Politics-American Liberals Attitudes

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#21 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 01:11 AM

TechHarper, on Apr 6 2005, 12:51 AM, said:

"I've already made up my mind and that's final!". 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Did you by chance run into my mother several years ago...that sounds almost exactly like what she would say...LOL. but it would go more along the lines of: "Do what you're told...or else!"
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#22 TechHarper

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 02:26 AM

LORD of the SWORD, on Apr 5 2005, 11:11 PM, said:

TechHarper, on Apr 6 2005, 12:51 AM, said:

"I've already made up my mind and that's final!". 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Did you by chance run into my mother several years ago...that sounds almost exactly like what she would say...LOL. but it would go more along the lines of: "Do what you're told...or else!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Not just your mother. ;)  I think every parent has the authoritarian mind-set built into their genetic code.
"When the government fears the people, there is liberty; when the people fear the government, there is tyranny. - Thomas Jefferson
"A nation that limits freedom in the name of security will have neither." - Thomas Jefferson

#23 G1223

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 02:30 AM

I had the classic too smart for his own good liber History teacher. He was always of the opinion that violence never solved a thing. I said the fathers of Carthage would beg to differ. That did not go over well.

He was of the opinion that if you kept talking soon the other guy would listen. I pointed out that talking never has stopped those people who desired something and were prepared to take it by force if needed.

So I have seen too many men who thought they knew the way the world really works. And I have seen a few succeed but they always seem to have changed their points of view.

Me I see man as a creature with a thin shell of civilization.Guided by the better angels of his nature. But stuck on the path that says you never know what is in the mind of another man till he becomes your friend or your enemy. So you prepare for the worse while hoping for a better situation.

That is not to say there have not been good men and women in the past nor men and women unborn who will be better than even those who have come and gone ahead of them. But watch for the ones who prove to be the monsters we tell ourselves cannot exist because they do and you never know where and in what shape they take.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

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#24 TechHarper

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 02:36 AM

^^^  Sorry, but I don't understand how your post relates to the rest of the topic. :eh:
"When the government fears the people, there is liberty; when the people fear the government, there is tyranny. - Thomas Jefferson
"A nation that limits freedom in the name of security will have neither." - Thomas Jefferson

#25 Nonprofit

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 09:15 AM

Quote

TechHarper Posted Today, 02:36 AM
  ^^^ Sorry, but I don't understand how your post relates to the rest of the topic. 

Valid point you brought up here TH.  Shouldn't that qestion be asked of these posts also?

Quote

waterpanther Posted Yesterday, 09:24 PM
  Hey, folks. Gather 'round the campfire. Lean back against a nice tree stump or the person next to you, an' I'll tune up the old twelve-string. Ever'body ready? Here we go.
Kumbayah, m'lor', kumbayah-ah.
Kumbayah, m'lor', kumbayah-ah.
Kumbayah, m'lor', kumbayah-ah.
Oh, lor, kumbayah.

Quote

Lin731 Posted Yesterday, 09:42 PM
  Woooooooooohoooooooooooooooooo! Can the SMORES be far behind?!

Quote

waterpanther Posted Yesterday, 10:19 PM
  Mind you ladies don't burn your fingers, now. Somebody take the descant on this one.

Are you going to Scarborough Fair?
Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme
Remember me to one who lives there
He once was a true love of mine.

When I first read this article I mind went directly to the name of Ted Kennedy.  Who so many times has made objectionable statements many times over with his uppity attitude. He really lets things fly out of his mouth without thinking first and I wonder how often others in his party want to shut him up before he says something bad. Then wandered to John Kerry who made very clear what his attitude was during his run for President. And John uses this statement in his personal life "Don't you know who I am"  all attitude  in oder to get things for free or to move up to first in line and silly things of that nature.  All which was written about during the election time.

Now if we changed the word liberal to conservative I think we would have had much different replies from the folks here.  Now read it.

Conservatives may think of themselves as people who believe in certain principles but, if you observe their actual behavior, you are likely to discover that most conservatives have a certain set of attitudes, rather than principles.

Conservatives may denounce "greed," for example, but in practice it all depends on whose greed. Nothing the government does is ever likely to be called "greed" by conservatives.


I think most of you would be agreeing with the article and writing much different replys,  in my opinion.  

Just after I posted this, I jumped in the car to go vote.  And nearly voted a straight liberal ticket.  Yikes! I'm worried about myself.  But my rule is,  vote for the best person for the job and not what party they are in.  

RuReddy

#26 Zwolf

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 09:30 AM

Quote

I think most of you would be agreeing with the article and writing much different replys, in my opinion.

***** I'd still think it was overly-generalizing and pretty useless.  Blanket statements made about an entire extremely-large group are seldom very valid or valuable.  They can make for fun partisan reading in a blowing-off-steam, hit-piece, I-just-wanna-read-something-that-says-what-I-already-think-and-pretend-it's-news sense, but they don't add much to actual intelligent discourse.

Quote

But my rule is, vote for the best person for the job and not what party they are in.

******** That part I can agree with... :)

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#27 Nonny

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 09:33 AM

TechHarper, on Apr 5 2005, 09:51 PM, said:

G1223, on Apr 5 2005, 06:15 PM, said:

Yeah open mind... Yeah right. :whistle:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's a huge difference between having an open mind and agreeing with everything someone says.  Open mind = considering and agreeing, disagreeing, or being neutral.  Closed mind = "I'm right, everyone else is wrong" or "I've already made up my mind and that's final!".  The author of this article did a great deal of complaining and accusing.  Some of it's true, much of it omits information and twists facts for purely political reasons.  *shrug*  It happens all the time from people in both major parties and from all ends of the spectrum.  The fact that people here are disregarding this article as having little substance is an example of analyzing and making a judgment, not being closed-minded.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:thumbs-up:  Excellent explanation.  :welldone:

Nonny
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#28 Nonny

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 09:36 AM

Zwolf666, on Apr 6 2005, 06:30 AM, said:

***** I'd still think it was overly-generalizing and pretty useless.  Blanket statements made about an entire extremely-large group are seldom very valid or valuable.  They can make for fun partisan reading in a blowing-off-steam, hit-piece, I-just-wanna-read-something-that-says-what-I-already-think-and-pretend-it's-news sense, but they don't add much to actual intelligent discourse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Damn skippy they don't!

Nonny
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#29 Lin731

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 09:54 AM

Quote

Don't bogart that marshmellow, my friend, hand it over to me.

Nonny

Hey now, there are Plenty of crusty mellows to go around now!


Quote

waterpanther Posted Yesterday, 10:19 PM
  Mind you ladies don't burn your fingers, now. Somebody take the descant on this one.

Are you going to Scarborough Fair?
Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme
Remember me to one who lives there
He once was a true love of mine.

What, no Greensleeves? Bummer :(

Quote

Now if we changed the word liberal to conservative I think we would have had much different replies from the folks here. Now read it.

Personally, you could insert Bozo, Crusty The Clown or Spartacus there and I'd give it the same amount of validity I'd give any opinion peice. I tend to prefer factually backed articles myself, after all you KNOW what they say about opinions.
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Posted Image

#30 Nonny

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 10:06 AM

Lin731, on Apr 6 2005, 06:54 AM, said:

... after all you KNOW what they say about opinions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know what I say about opinions:

pi + onions = opinions

Nonny
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#31 Godeskian

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 10:08 AM

:lol:

never heard that one before nonny

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#32 Nonny

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 10:12 AM

Steven_Q, on Apr 6 2005, 07:08 AM, said:

:lol:

never heard that one before nonny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:hehe:

That's because I've been holding it back for years, waiting for the right moment to unleash it.  And, oh look, a "right" moment, so to speak.  ;)

Nonny
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#33 Elara

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 10:28 AM

Actually, G1223 answered the original post very nicely in this part I quoted:

G1223, on Apr 6 2005, 02:30 AM, said:

But watch for the ones who prove to be the monsters we tell ourselves cannot exist because they do and you never know where and in what shape they take.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


'Monsters' come in any group and are a detriment to all of us. And I would consider the author of that piece to be one of those monsters, G1223 speaks of.

You may also add my voice to those saying that I cannot stand blanket statements. They are unfair and a waste of time, as well as intelligence.
El
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I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

"You have a fair and valid point here. I've pointed out, numerous times, that the Left's or Democrats always cry "Racist" whenever someone disagrees with them. I failed to realize that the Right or Republicans do the same thing with "Liberal"." ~ LotS

#34 TechHarper

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 02:28 PM

RuReddy1, on Apr 6 2005, 07:15 AM, said:

Quote

TechHarper Posted Today, 02:36 AM
  ^^^ Sorry, but I don't understand how your post relates to the rest of the topic. 

Valid point you brought up here TH.  Shouldn't that qestion be asked of these posts also?

Quote

waterpanther Posted Yesterday, 09:24 PM
  Hey, folks. Gather 'round the campfire. Lean back against a nice tree stump or the person next to you, an' I'll tune up the old twelve-string. Ever'body ready? Here we go.
Kumbayah, m'lor', kumbayah-ah.
Kumbayah, m'lor', kumbayah-ah.
Kumbayah, m'lor', kumbayah-ah.
Oh, lor, kumbayah.

Quote

Lin731 Posted Yesterday, 09:42 PM
  Woooooooooohoooooooooooooooooo! Can the SMORES be far behind?!

Quote

waterpanther Posted Yesterday, 10:19 PM
  Mind you ladies don't burn your fingers, now. Somebody take the descant on this one.

Are you going to Scarborough Fair?
Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme
Remember me to one who lives there
He once was a true love of mine.

Absolutely.  They don't contribute at all.  The reason I specifically asked G is because his post seemed serious, but I didn't see how it fit (while the posts you quoted clearly aren't meant to provide substance to the thread).

Quote

Now if we changed the word liberal to conservative I think we would have had much different replies from the folks here.  Now read it.

Conservatives may think of themselves as people who believe in certain principles but, if you observe their actual behavior, you are likely to discover that most conservatives have a certain set of attitudes, rather than principles.

Conservatives may denounce "greed," for example, but in practice it all depends on whose greed. Nothing the government does is ever likely to be called "greed" by conservatives.


I think most of you would be agreeing with the article and writing much different replys,  in my opinion. 

Just after I posted this, I jumped in the car to go vote.  And nearly voted a straight liberal ticket.  Yikes! I'm worried about myself.  But my rule is,  vote for the best person for the job and not what party they are in. 

RuReddy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


You might be right.  It's possible more people would be agreeing with it.  I, however, would not be one of them.  As I quickly realized after asking for a definition of "liberal" in another thread, words like "liberal" and "conservative" have no meaning whatsoever (or, perhaps more accurately, they have so MANY meanings that they lose all meaning... if that made sense :blink:).  Now, if you want to point out specific examples of people who identify themselves as conservatives and that I believe are corrupt hypocrites, then you'll certainly hear that response from me in regard to those conservatives. :)

Edited because I messed up the quotes.

Edited by TechHarper, 06 April 2005 - 02:30 PM.

"When the government fears the people, there is liberty; when the people fear the government, there is tyranny. - Thomas Jefferson
"A nation that limits freedom in the name of security will have neither." - Thomas Jefferson

#35 Lin731

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 03:04 PM

Techharper,
Ummmm...I think most of us DID contribute in a serious vein to the thread early on. It just sort of devolved from there. In all honesty though, to a degree the post got the response it deserved really. It wasn't a "debate" issue. It was a post to basically say...Liberals: badddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd. Same ole stuff, ya know?
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Posted Image

#36 Pallas

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 03:18 PM

Ideology gone amok.

I agree with social/progressive liberalism to an extent and I consider myself to be open-minded but TechHarper is right (What do you do, TechHarper? So far you've clarified pretty much what I was thinking or have said in a wonderfully articulated way. Must be a gift  :look:  :lol: ); being open-minded is not just blindly accepting everything (although I do know some liberals who do that and I always wonder why) but it is being open to new ideas and accepting or rejecting it on the basis of rational logic.

The fact that people use ideology to impugn another's character based on hasty generalizations and put-on characterizations is one of my biggest pet peeves. I believe that G has made a good point with his post on his history prof. History has a tendency to give credibility to realist might-makes-right ideology but I certainly wouldn't want to apply it to world diplomacy or governing a country. Violence does tend to solve a lot of problems--in the worst way possible. The world doesn't work by listing either conservative or liberal viewpoints (however you define it; today's liberalism is tomorrow's conservativism), it kind of fluccuates in the middle. I think it's a huge mistake to identify something as either/or and then conclude those are the only two options and everything else is bunk.

Perhaps that is one reason why historically, people go to war. Take away a man's options and he'll take the easiest route out: violence. I don't think it is because humans are barbarians hidden beneath a veneer of civilization. I think given choices that is a compromise (that is to say, transcending ultimatums which isn't a choice at all) between two parties, they'll take it.

Man is a political animal, or so says Aristotle, and the only man who can live outside the polis is either a beast or a god.

Ideology is good for classifying theories but it doesn't do much good in the real world. That includes this tired old debate of conservativism/liberalism.

Kalistria.

I hope that didn't wander too far off the beaten track. I have a tendency to do that sometimes. Not that it matters, I suppose.  :blush:
We can do noble acts without ruling the earth and sea--Aristotle

#37 GoldenCoal

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 05:48 PM

Kalistria, on Apr 6 2005, 02:18 PM, said:

I hope that didn't wander too far off the beaten track. I have a tendency to do that sometimes. Not that it matters, I suppose.  :blush:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I think you were right on target.  :cool:

#38 waterpanther

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 05:59 PM

Well, now, there's debate and there's debait, and the original post here looks very much like the latter.  Thought there was something in the rules about statements applied to an entire category of people, and something else about posts designed only to get a rise out of people.  Coming under the definition of being a trellis or something like that.  But I guess I was wrong.

So pass the Hershey bars and graham crackers, folks, and here's Lin's request:

Alas my love you do me wrong
To cast me off discourteously;
For I have loved you so long
Delighting in your company.

Greensleeves was my delight,
Greensleeves my heart of gold
Greensleeves was my heart of joy
And who but my Lady Greensleeves.


I have been ready at thine hand
To grant whatever thou would'st crave;
I have waged both life and land
Thy love and goodwill for to have.


Greensleeves was my delight,
Greensleeves was my heart of gold
Greensleeves was my heart of joy
And who but my Lady Greensleeves.


Thy petticoat of sendel white
With gold embroidered gorgeously;
Thy petticoat of silk and white
And these I bought thee gladly.


Greensleeves was my delight,
Greensleeves my heart of gold
Greensleeves was my heart of joy
And who but my Lady Greensleeves.

I gave the garters fringed with gold
With silver aiglets hanging by,
That made thee blithe for to behold,
And yet thou wouldst not love me.

Greensleeves was my delight,
Greensleeves my heart of gold
Greensleeves was my heart of joy
And who but my Lady Greensleeves.

Greensleeves, Greensleeves, farewell, adieu,
And God I pray to prosper thee.
For I am still thy lover true,
Come once again and love me.

Greensleeves was my delight,
Greensleeves my heart of gold
Greensleeves was my heart of joy
And who but my Lady Greensleeves.
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#39 TechHarper

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 06:36 PM

Lin731, on Apr 6 2005, 01:04 PM, said:

Techharper,
Ummmm...I think most of us DID contribute in a serious vein to the thread early on. It just sort of devolved from there. In all honesty though, to a degree the post got the response it deserved really. It wasn't a "debate" issue. It was a post to basically say...Liberals: badddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd. Same ole stuff, ya know?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


When I said "they don't contribute at all," I meant the specific posts quoted (not the individuals who made them... sorry if that's the way it sounded :blush: ).  Also, the only reason I made any statement at all was because Ru misunderstood my reason for asking G about his post.  Ru apparently assumed I was attacking him when I was merely asking for clarification on a post that seemed well-thought out but I was having difficulty understanding how it fit into the rest of the thread.

Quite frankly, I think G's post would fit better as the opening for a thread discussing the reasons people hold particular political views.  This thread degenerated quite quickly due in large part to the quality of the article that started it, but I think G's post and the topic involved in it would make an interesting discussion.
"When the government fears the people, there is liberty; when the people fear the government, there is tyranny. - Thomas Jefferson
"A nation that limits freedom in the name of security will have neither." - Thomas Jefferson

#40 Chipper

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 09:36 PM

I'm just curious how the author manages to paint liberals (aka the Democrats) as basically devils, and yet imply that the conservatives (Republicans) are angels.  I"m talkinga bout the parties here, not the voters...

fact is, neither side is good. they both suck.
"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?"

- Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy



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