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Cardinal Law says mass

Cardinal Law Religion Catholicism Pedophile Priests

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#1 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 02:15 PM

Here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7463011/

At least now we know the true feelings the church has for molestor priests...and those that aide them. I can't even begin to describe how angry this makes me.
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#2 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 03:10 PM

What really pisses me off is that according to this...Law (I refuse to give him the title Cardinal) gets to vote for the new pope...

Quote

Blaine said earlier Monday that the group was not opposed to Law’s participation in the conclave, but that his public role in the papal transition was hurtful.

Are any of the cardinals accused of molesting children? If so Law will probably vote for him.
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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#3 Kosh

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 03:58 PM

We should never have let him leave the country.
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#4 G1223

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 04:39 PM

Law was not charged with a crime. Nor investigated for one. I do not like the man but some of this is just sour grapes. The courts have made their verdicts the payments have been made and Law was removed from his office here in the states. He was not put into a office where he could do anything to effect the lives of other people as he once did.

Dislike the man as much as you want,I know I do. But this has the feel of wanting to get a pound of flesh after the courts have made their ruling.
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#5 Spectacles

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 06:59 PM

What stinks is that Law was aware of the priests who were abusing children and either looked the other way or just moved them to other parishes. And the Vatican has done essentially the same with Law--not only that but has put him front and center in Rome. They didn't even have the decency to stick him in a broom closet somewhere. So, it's a real affront to those victimized while Law ignored their plight.
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#6 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 08:33 PM

G1223, on Apr 11 2005, 04:39 PM, said:

Law was not charged with a crime. Nor investigated for one. I do not like the man but some of this is just sour grapes. The courts have made their verdicts the payments have been made and Law was removed from his office here in the states. He was not put into a office where he could do anything to effect the lives of other people as he once did.

Sour grapes? No, at least not from me. Law will rot in HELL when he dies, that's enough for me. But this is about the Vatican publicly ENDORSING a man who aided known child molesters. By doing so they have literally told the entire world the type of institution they are...ONE THAT PROTECTS AND SHELTERS MOLESTERS, and those that help them.

Quote

Dislike the man as much as you want,I know I do. But this has the feel of wanting to get a pound of flesh after the courts have made their ruling.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Again I have to disagree...wanting a pound of flesh after the fact would be to put a contract out on Law...to my knowledge nobody has done so.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#7 Nick

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 09:07 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Apr 11 2005, 09:33 PM, said:

Again I have to disagree...wanting a pound of flesh after the fact would be to put a contract out on Law...to my knowledge nobody has done so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I agree that wanting a pound of flesh would mean wanting to harm the man--and I seriously doubt that it hasn't been (or planned to have been) tried already.

What I can't understand is why in the world the Vatican would not only want such a man--one who's aided and abetted child molestors--to stick around, but to be doing public masses so he can dance a little more in the limelight??

I wouldn't want him voting for *my* spiritual leader, that's for sure.  But the Church should have at least enough sense to keep from parading the man around in the spotlight.

They've been around long enough, they should know better . . . or at least know how to *look* better than they are right now.

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#8 NeuralClone

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 09:37 PM

w00t! And yet ANOTHER predictable thread bashing the Catholic Church! When will someone start the next one?! :wideeyed:

Just because SOME people that are Catholic say something doesn't mean ALL Catholics believe that way or agree.

This forum should really be renamed to "ALL Catholics suck! Why? BECAUSE. Gay marriage = bad. Conservative/Liberal Smackdown!"

Edited by NeuralClone, 11 April 2005 - 09:40 PM.

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#9 DWF

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 09:45 PM

Quote

"ALL Catholics suck! Why? BECAUSE. Gay marriage = bad. Conservative/Liberal Smackdown!"

That sounds like the title of the next Springer ep. :crazy:
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#10 G1223

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 09:47 PM

NeuralClone, on Apr 12 2005, 02:37 AM, said:

w00t! And yet ANOTHER predictable thread bashing the Catholic Church! When will someone start the next one?! :wideeyed:

Just because SOME people that are Catholic say something doesn't mean ALL Catholics believe that way or agree.

This forum should really be renamed to "ALL Catholics suck! Why? BECAUSE. Gay marriage = bad. Conservative/Liberal Smackdown!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


No NeuralClone just the title of the thread.
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#11 NeuralClone

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 09:50 PM

G1223, on Apr 11 2005, 10:47 PM, said:

No NeuralClone just the title of the thread.
Nah, I think it pretty much applies to this entire forum. Oh and add the subtitle: "I'M SO PISSED!!!!" :devil:
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#12 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 09:57 PM

NeuralClone, on Apr 11 2005, 09:37 PM, said:

w00t! And yet ANOTHER predictable thread bashing the Catholic Church! When will someone start the next one?! :wideeyed:

LMAO! Tell you what. I'll stop posting comments like my previous ones when the Church actually does something to help the victims of the molesting priests...and contrary to the church's opinion, it's NOT parading around a man that helped molesting priest molest other victims. It's NOT giving said molestor helper a vote in who is the next pope.

Quote

Just because SOME people that are Catholic say something doesn't mean ALL Catholics believe that way or agree.

I never said it did. The Church's actions speak for themselves. But you're right, it doesn't mean ALL catholics agree...just that the CHURCH itself agrees. Like I said, their actions speak for themselves.

Quote

This forum should really be renamed to "ALL Catholics suck! Why? BECAUSE. Gay marriage = bad. Conservative/Liberal Smackdown!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


edited to remove last comment, since it wouldn't really help the conversation.

I was raised catholic...and personally I have no problem with gay marriages. If a gay couple wants to marry, more power to them. To each their own. I CAN, however, understand why the church wouldn't condone it...According to the bible homosexuality is a sin...so if you're a gay couple, why would you want to be married by a religion that considers your acts sinful, in the first place?

But then again, the Church also DOES condone protecting child molesting priests...the way the church is welcoming Law proves that. Hell they are even given him a say in who the new pope is...that certainly isn't good.

Edited by LORD of the SWORD, 12 April 2005 - 12:45 AM.

"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#13 Soton

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 06:59 AM

A priest says mass.  Big frigging deal.

#14 Nonny

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 08:56 AM

^Catholic school children are taught to regard priests as the representatives of God on Earth.  Big enough frigging deal for you?  It was big enough for us that the idea that one could do us harm paled to the notion that anybody would believe us if one did.  Catholic parents, many of whom were Catholic school children in their day, are programmed to believe anything a priest or nun tells them, so Catholic school children face double jeopardy when they have any kind of grievance against one.  :angry:

Nick, on Apr 11 2005, 06:07 PM, said:

What I can't understand is why in the world the Vatican would not only want such a man--one who's aided and abetted child molestors--to stick around, but to be doing public masses so he can dance a little more in the limelight??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because the Vatican believes that it is the repository of truth, and that its truth is absolute, and that anybody who stands against them is evil incarnate.  With an attitude like that, the victim becomes the bad guy.  I bet the Vatican is filled with coots young and old who yearn for the days when they wielded the power of the Inquisition.  :angry:

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#15 Nonny

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 09:07 AM

More on the subject:

LA Times

Quote

Cardinal Law Is Snubbed
# Six U.S. Catholic leaders skip a Vatican Mass led by the disgraced former Boston archbishop.

By Larry B. Stammer and Richard Boudreaux, Times Staff Writers

VATICAN CITY — The scandal over sex abuse by American priests intruded on the mourning for Pope John Paul II here Monday as all but one U.S.-based cardinal avoided a Mass led by Boston's disgraced former archbishop, Cardinal Bernard Law.

Three of the seven cardinals — Edward M. Egan of New York, Francis George of Chicago and Roger M. Mahony of Los Angeles — snubbed the Mass in St. Peter's Basilica out of concern over Law's notoriety, three American church sources said.

"There was a general feeling it was best not to be there," said a source familiar with one cardinal's thinking. He said there had been an understanding among at least some of the cardinals to stay away.

Another source said the absence of most U.S. cardinals sent a message of protest. "You'd have to be blind not to see that," he said. "The fact is, they voted with their feet." A third source said the no-shows were part of a "pattern."

All three sources spoke on condition of anonymity two days after the Vatican announced a gag order on the 115 cardinals who are to meet Monday to elect John Paul's successor. None of the American cardinals would comment.

Law's role in the requiem Mass infuriated sexual abuse victims and their advocates in the United States and prompted two of them to stage a brief protest Monday in St. Peter's Square.

Justin Rigali of Philadelphia was the only U.S. resident cardinal present at the Mass with Law. The other American-based cardinals — William Keeler of Baltimore, Adam Maida of Detroit and Theodore McCarrick of Washington — had scheduling conflicts or decided not to attend after being informed that their presence was not mandatory, their aides said.

Most cardinals from other countries also skipped the Mass on a rainy afternoon, but their motives were unknown.

The silent rebuke by some American cardinals was a new setback in the Vatican's effort to rehabilitate Law, once the most powerful U.S. cardinal and a favorite of John Paul for his steadfast defense of conservative church teachings.


Law was forced to resign as archbishop of Boston in 2002 after disclosures that pedophile priests had been transferred from parish to parish in his jurisdiction, only to abuse more children. Soon the crisis engulfed much of the U.S. church, including the Diocese of Orange and Archdiocese of Los Angeles.

Last year, Law was transferred to the Vatican, and the pope gave him the honorary job as archpriest of one of Rome's four main basilicas, St. Mary Major. Citing rules published in 2000, Vatican officials said Law's designation to say Monday's Mass was an automatic consequence of his position.

With the cardinals sworn to silence over their deliberations on a future pope, the sex abuse issue moved into the spotlight.

Outside the basilica, Barbara Blaine and Barbara Dorris of the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests turned up before the Mass to hand out leaflets protesting Law's role in the service. The group had pleaded with U.S. cardinals to try to reverse the decision, which Blaine said had "rubbed salt in the wounds" of abuse victims.

Some passersby offered support to Blaine, of Chicago, and Dorris, of St. Louis.

"If she wants to be here and voice her opinion and protect kids, I think it's a good thing to do," said Don Schmidt of Neenah, Wis. "I kind of thought the pope should have been a little harder on some of the cardinals for what happened in the U.S. I think he was a little easy on them."

But the protest was short-lived. As television crews and reporters descended on her, Blaine appeared startled. Moments later, police directed the two women and the gaggle of reporters out of the barricaded square.

Later, Blaine attended part of the Mass.

"It's such a beautiful setting and such a solemn moment where we were trying to show our respect to the Holy Father," she said afterward. "It was just sad to look up and see Cardinal Law as the leader of it."

The Mass was the fourth held by the cardinals in St. Peter's during the novendiali, nine days of official mourning for John Paul, who died April 2 and was buried Friday under a marble slab in a crypt beneath St. Peter's.

The crypt will be open to visitors starting Wednesday.

Law is the only American cardinal to say a novendiali Mass. The series of eulogies offers nine selected cardinals a platform to influence the election of a new pontiff by extolling qualities in the late pope that they would like to see in the next one.

By delivering one of the eulogies, Law was able to do what most other cardinals are not allowed to: air his views in public.


Speaking slowly in slightly accented Italian, Law recalled the pope in his homily as a profoundly holy man, a missionary who "traveled to the ends of the Earth, preaching Jesus Christ."

"In these incredible days, the Holy Father continues to teach us what it means to be a disciple, a faithful follower of Christ," he said. "He showed us [this] in the full vigor of his younger years, when his love for every human being lighted the fire of the spirit in so many people, [and] in his last year of increasing fragility, when in his weakness he found new strength in the Lord."

Law did not allude to the sex abuse scandal. His homily was structured around the saints for which the four Roman basilicas are named — Peter, Paul, Mary and John — and the meaning their lives held for the late pope.

Drawing applause in the packed church, Law ended the homily with a gesture of condolence to Stanislaw Dziwisz, the Polish archbishop who served as John Paul's closest aide and celebrated the Mass with Law.

Monday was the day of St. Stanislaw, a Catholic martyr buried in the cathedral in Krakow, Poland, where John Paul was archbishop before becoming pope.

Italians made up a large part of the crowd. Those interviewed said they were vaguely aware of the sex abuse scandal in the United States but had no idea of Law's role in it.

Others at the service, such as Mary Wyatt, a retired high school English teacher from Kingston, Canada, said she was unaware that the white-haired cleric at the altar was Law. After being told his identity, she offered a quick judgment: "It is not at all appropriate for him to be here."

She said the scandal had changed little: "The church is still blind to the sexual realities of a celibate priesthood. That is frightening in this day and age."


Jane and Jack Cooney, a couple from Rye, N.Y., said they had no idea that they were listening to Cardinal Law.

"Maybe it should be taken as a sign of forgiveness, that he's still one of the valued members of the College of Cardinals," said Jack Cooney, a lawyer. "Is that appropriate? Frankly, I don't know enough about his particular case."

The couple said they had just enrolled their two children, ages 8 and 11, in a course on Catholic doctrine and learned that this year, for the first time, the instruction would deal with the issue of sexual molestation.

"The church is clearly doing some things that are quite dramatic to appease the victims of abuse," Jane Cooney said. "But it's a two-pronged thing. You've got to deal with the issue, and what they're doing with my children is just that. On the other hand, forgiveness is a fundamental underpinning of the church, and maybe that's why Cardinal Law is here."
Speaking of forgiveness, I can't help but notice that asking forgiveness from your deity is supposed to let you off the hook so you don't have to ask forgiveness from those you've actually harmed.  :angry:

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#16 Spectacles

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 09:13 AM

For the record, in expressing my disapproval of Law's saying one of nine masses honoring the Pope, I in no way meant to bash the entire Catholic church--no more than did those archbishops who refused to attend the mass, no more than did the parishioners who stopped contributing to churches in the Boston diocese until Law was finally allowed by the Vatican to resign.
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#17 NeuralClone

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 09:48 AM

Nonny, on Apr 12 2005, 09:56 AM, said:

^Catholic school children are taught to regard priests as the representatives of God on Earth.  Big enough frigging deal for you?  It was big enough for us that the idea that one could do us harm paled to the notion that anybody would believe us if one did.  Catholic parents, many of whom were Catholic school children in their day, are programmed to believe anything a priest or nun tells them, so Catholic school children face double jeopardy when they have any kind of grievance against one.  :angry:
You're saying we are programmed to believe everything nuns and priests say? I'm sorry but that is a load of crap. We no longer live in the Middle Ages. We can think for ourselves, thank you very much.
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#18 Nonny

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 10:24 AM

NeuralClone, on Apr 12 2005, 06:48 AM, said:

Nonny, on Apr 12 2005, 09:56 AM, said:

^Catholic school children are taught to regard priests as the representatives of God on Earth.  Big enough frigging deal for you?  It was big enough for us that the idea that one could do us harm paled to the notion that anybody would believe us if one did.  Catholic parents, many of whom were Catholic school children in their day, are programmed to believe anything a priest or nun tells them, so Catholic school children face double jeopardy when they have any kind of grievance against one.  :angry:
You're saying we are programmed to believe everything nuns and priests say? I'm sorry but that is a load of crap. We no longer live in the Middle Ages. We can think for ourselves, thank you very much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sadly, not a load of crap at all, but perhaps generalized, so why don't I rephrase?  

Many Catholic school children are still being taught to regard priests as the representatives of God on Earth.  Back in the day that I was trapped in a hellhole of a Catholic school, the idea that a priest could do us harm paled  to the notion that anybody would believe us if one did.  Catholic parents, many of whom were Catholic school children in their day, are programmed to believe anything a priest or nun tells them, so Catholic school children face double jeopardy when they have any kind of grievance against one.  How many victims make accusations while they are still small, vulnerable children, and how many never make accusations at all?  I'm proud of those who came forward, and hope that their parents, however old and however devout they are, are standing by them, and not automatically believing the priests. :angry:

The only thing that separates the Church from the Middle Ages is that these days we frown on those who burn, hang, drown and otherwise torture those who disagree with them.  

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#19 Nonny

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 10:36 AM

I just received my first pope spam.  :eek2:  :eek2:  :eek2:

:angry:  :angry:  :angry:

Nonny
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#20 Norville

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 11:02 AM

NeuralClone said:

w00t! And yet ANOTHER predictable thread bashing the Catholic Church! When will someone start the next one?! :wideeyed:

I've been attempting to avoid even squeaking in this thread (squeak!), for fear that my non-Catholic opinions would cause just this sort of reaction -- a cardinal refuses to denounce molestors, so, of course, anyone who objects to that is a Catholic-basher. Fine, but it's not the Inquisition any longer, and there is a thing called free speech (and the ability to disagree), and a disgust toward molestors and those who'd harbor them without consequence. But don't let that stop you in any way! :wideeyed:

NeuralClone said:

Just because SOME people that are Catholic say something doesn't mean ALL Catholics believe that way or agree.

I'm aware of that, and didn't realize that this thread was about all Catholics in the world -- I thought it was about those who'd harbor molestors and not help their targets. But maybe a dislike of C. Law means a dislike of all Catholics. Shows how much I know.

Soton said:

A priest says mass. Big frigging deal.

Considering who the priest is, it's a big frigging deal, yes -- thanks for noticing. ;)

NeuralClone said:

You're saying we are programmed to believe everything nuns and priests say? I'm sorry but that is a load of crap. We no longer live in the Middle Ages. We can think for ourselves, thank you very much.

Perhaps your Catholic education differed from Nonny's, and was more (gasp) liberal. Perhaps you're also younger than she is, and things had changed in time for your education. Perhaps other people have had different experiences. Just a thought.
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Rule#6: Remember the future.
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